Cellar Build in Established House

[gbader]

I got a heap of useful info from David’s (daver6) post about his, so hopefully my build helps someone else

Basically -what I wanted was a room to store wine (boxes and racks) that is a reasonable temp (as in stable), I am aiming for 18 degrees on the temp front (trying to balance running costs etc)

Room

House is new to us and the previous owners used this room as general storage + dodgy cellar. Room is about 2x3m but also has the underside of the stairs in there, all brick/concrete with no external windows. So, seems perfect for a conversion – temp is a major concern though as during summer it was sitting at around 25 degrees (which is pretty well what the rest of the house was)

So, step 1 was removing the skirting and cornices





Insulation

I used "blue board", only went for 25mm (thicker would have been better but I could not really afford the space)







Was pretty easier to work with (cut/glue/flush) and is about $25 a sheet (I used 19 sheets - and ended up one short for the back of the door

In the process of paining it, going with a "stone" look (I broke the "let the mrs always choose colours" rule, now stuck with something I don't really like - pics when I finish)

Cooling

Most stressful part - I reckon I have read everything on the web on this subject and toggled between cheap AC's through to "proper" cellar conditioners (big $). I even looked at the new Daikin model (Ururu Sarara ) that does Humidity control, expensive for a split (3k installed) but is 7 star (I spoke to a few people, most seem to agree that this sort of operation will void the warranty so spending $ on an expensive split is a waster, get a cheap one and replace it every 5 years or so)

In the end I got in touch with a small local AC company, they knew what I wanted and are installing a "modified" split this week (modified in the sense that it feeds water to a tray under the fan that is supposed to help maintain humidity). Very easy to deal with, seems to know his stuff and has done a few around Perth evidently

Will see I guess, the indoor fan will probably run continuously (for Humidity) but I am hoping the compressor is not on too often - I will look to install a timer (if the inbuilt one does not do it) so that the unit can only run in daylight (upgrading solar, will lose FIT anyway so need to consume as much as I can in the daytime)


Racks

Wanted bang for buck in terms of space utilisation, so going with these - http://www.wine-cellar-racks.com.au/connoisseur%20wine%20cellar%20racks.htm

They arrive this week as well, so some fun assembling and installing those

I did ask about "plasti dipping" the racks (for a softer feel) but they don't do that yet (so powder coated black) with 100mm "standoffs" to allow for insulation


So, that is progress so far

cheers

greg

[AaronL]

Looks good so far. I'm looking to do something similar and have wine storage under the stairs. Does any of your cellar space share an external wall, or are your stairs in the middle of the house?

[The fish]

Hey Greg!

That looks awesome Any idea on what the total spend might be?

Cheers
Matt

[rossmckay]

I live in a terrace house and my choices are In the roof (cheapest to build but more expensive to cool), excavate under the existing house gaining access from under the stairs where the existing cellar is now (expensive and difficult), out the back (most expensive because I would have to underpin the footings for the next door flat and garage).

In the end, keeping the number of bottles down and buying at auction for the older ones works out a hell of a lot cheaper for me.

Good on you though. Any more pics?

[daver6]

Looking good! Can't wait to see the finished cellar.

[Hacker]

Exciting project! I will be doing the same in about 12 months. My present cellar runs on a cheap split system and keeps the temp down to 12-14 degrees, perhaps too cold for ideal evolution.

Your blue 25mm insulation - how thick can you get that stuff? And is it available at Bunnings or similar?

[gbader]

Thanks for the comments everyone, will post more pics (racks sitting on a pallet at home, just delivered)

Does any of your cellar space share an external wall, or are your stairs in the middle of the house?

The back wall (RHS of the base of the stairwell) is double brick external - that is where the Aircon is going (2.5kw split), opens to the "skinny" side of the block and is well shaded

Any idea on what the total spend might be?

Insulation - around $500
Racks- $2200 (will have 550 bottle under rack, 4 different sizes to fit in the odd shape of the room)
AC - will be $2200 installed
Hygrometer- $10 from ebay (have not got it yet, but will measure temp in room, temp in bottle and Humidity

Think that's about it, various bits like paint/glue etc from Bunnings

The AC is still the biggest concern for me but had real trouble justifying the cost of a proper refrigerative model, especially when I will be happy at 18 degrees in summer

Your blue 25mm insulation - how thick can you get that stuff? And is it available at Bunnings or similar?

I got mine from here, heaps of different thicknesses - https://www.kingsenergy.com.au/online.asp?id=3016 (thought it was quite cheap, and delivery was only $25)

cheers

[Scotty vino]

I've always wanted to do something like this. Good Work!!
I've just bought a new 'old' house that has one of those giant car/mechanic pits in the garage.
I was thinking I might be able to do something with it in terms of a cellar.
I've heard of them being used for cellar storage with varying degrees of success.
For me there's cellars like the one you've built,
then there's cellars that aren't really suitable for the collections most of us possess.

A friend of mine has an old style cellar which I use to put some of my overflow into. It's a great setup with the staircase and hidden door and all that. We stuck a temp gauge in it over the last Adelaide heat wave and it held 19 degrees fairly consistently. There's no AC unit or way of controlling humidity but it has decent ventilation. It seems a fair way underground too which I'm sure helps.

[Chuck]

I've heard of them being used for cellar storage with varying degrees of success.
For me there's cellars like the one you've built,
then there's cellars that aren't really suitable for the collections most of us possess.
We stuck a temp gauge in it over the last Adelaide heat wave and it held 19 degrees fairly consistently. There's no AC unit or way of controlling humidity but it has decent ventilation. It seems a fair way underground too which I'm sure helps.

Scotty,

A mate had a similar style mechanic's pit and it worked well as a passive cellar and if your;s peaks around 19 C you are doing very well. My passive cellar peaks around 21 C in summer with no issues that I can see, I believe its not the seasonal peak but the day to day temperance variance that needs to be watched.

Chuck

[gbader]

I've just bought a new 'old' house that has one of those giant car/mechanic pits in the garage.
I was thinking I might be able to do something with it in terms of a cellar.
I've heard of them being used for cellar storage with varying degrees of success.
.

I would love to have the mechanics pit - if it is semi underground them I reckon you would be most of the way there in terms of managing temp variation

I assume the challenge will be a lid/roof and some stairs (maybe you could build a hinged lid on struts (sort of like a large version of the cover you see on the back of utes?)

cheers

[gbader]

OK - go a bit further last night

Racks are assembled (impressed with the quality) but not bolted to the walls yet (paint still wet)

General layout is there, left room for boxes and some shelving etc







Aircon later in the week, hopefully stocking by the weekend

[Scotty vino]

I've heard of them being used for cellar storage with varying degrees of success.
For me there's cellars like the one you've built,
then there's cellars that aren't really suitable for the collections most of us possess.
We stuck a temp gauge in it over the last Adelaide heat wave and it held 19 degrees fairly consistently. There's no AC unit or way of controlling humidity but it has decent ventilation. It seems a fair way underground too which I'm sure helps.

Scotty,

A mate had a similar style mechanic's pit and it worked well as a passive cellar and if your;s peaks around 19 C you are doing very well. My passive cellar peaks around 21 C in summer with no issues that I can see, I believe its not the seasonal peak but the day to day temperance variance that needs to be watched.

Chuck

I haven't actually moved into my 'renovators delight' yet but when I inspected the garage
I noticed the pit so i lifted the boards on it and it had a ladder going down into it.
On first inspection it looked quite deep. When I move in I'll have a better look and get down into it.

[Scotty vino]

I've just bought a new 'old' house that has one of those giant car/mechanic pits in the garage.
I was thinking I might be able to do something with it in terms of a cellar.
I've heard of them being used for cellar storage with varying degrees of success.
.

I would love to have the mechanics pit - if it is semi underground them I reckon you would be most of the way there in terms of managing temp variation

I assume the challenge will be a lid/roof and some stairs (maybe you could build a hinged lid on struts (sort of like a large version of the cover you see on the back of utes?)

cheers

I'll have a look at it and assess it's dimensions once I've moved in but it looks pretty decent size wise. Maybe with some tweaking I can make something out of it. You're really moving along with your setup though.
Great work! Cheers for the pix.

[Polymer]

So got a general question for those that have looked into it..

If you get a ducted system, is it pretty easy to get it connected to your existing ducting system in your house (if you have one?)

[gbader]

So got a general question for those that have looked into it..

If you get a ducted system, is it pretty easy to get it connected to your existing ducting system in your house (if you have one?)

I would thought it would be quite easy to duct into a cellar - issue would be that the temp in there may well be different to what you want in the house (as in, cooler) so wouldn't you end up running s large system (compressor etc) for just one room?

Cost issue more than a "can it be done" I would have thought

cheers

greg

[gbader]

Ok, update

Room is nearly complete, still needs;

Some shelving (for Random bottles, Champers etc)
Lighting (replace the ugly fluro)

Started filling up the racks (and downloaded "cellar tracker" - like that, drinking window is useful for a novice like me), sure it will all change but at the moment the 4 racks are organised as

Drinkers (cheaper, nice - eg my Pepperjack)
Drinkers (expensive, special occasion), kids don't touch
Cellar (need time)
Random (under the AC, these are the "try at own risk", combo of really nice (but out of date) and "no idea, but probably crap" wines)

Aircon

Couple of pics here

Simple Daikin split that has been modified so the water outlet runs into a tray and drains though another pipe to outside. The theory is that the water will sit under the fan and with the air blowing over it will help manage Humidity. Very early days (and it is cold atm anyway) but seems to work. I have the timers set so that it only operates in the day time and I have seen humidity lift from 55% to nearly 70% (I had to pour some water in the tray as the compressor is not running enough at the moment to generate enough water - assume it will in summer)





Gauge

And to be clear, not related to this device but impressed (with the price - $10 including delivery) and seems reasonably accurate

Has two temps displays, In = room and Out = Probe. I am going to seal the probe and put it inside a bottle and see what the variance gets to (this is to see if my theory of not needing the AC on at night holds true)



So, that's it - job 90% complete - now just need to start collecting some good wine !! (off to Margaret River for the weekend)

cheers

greg

[Polymer]

Well, I was hoping there was some way for it to only send the air to that room..and ideally the insulation would make it so it wouldn't have to run very long.

What I don't know is, does the duct make it inefficient because that part isn't insulated? Also not sure how humidity might impact it...not even sure what I'm thinking can be done or if it is even worth it...

[maybs]

Nice looking conversion, very jealous of all that space to keep things organised. My offsite locker is a shocker to shuffle stuff around in and I haven't (to date) been keeping a very good record of where things are located, figured it would be easy to work out but when it gets full it can be a bit of a drag. Good stuff.

[damonpeyo]

Nice work

[dave vino]

Not sure if I'm getting old and tight, but is $2.2K a lot for 3 smallish racks? Obviously they were custom made, but I don't know, seems a lot.

Looks good though.

[michel]

looks great
i agree with davo- small - but i reckon you will just start stacking up boxes

[ads_11]

Those racks look pretty robust. In your opinion, do you think they are a bit over engineered for their purpose?

[gbader]

Racks

I am sure there are cheaper options around, the 2.2k was for 4 different ones (550 bottles total) -full price list is here http://www.wine-cellar-racks.com.au/connoisseur%20wine%20cellar%20racks.htm, Freight was a killer for me

Unfortunately the room is an odd size with the underside of the stair well in there, a simple layout would give a much better $/bottle cost in terms of racks. And yes, wanted to leave room for boxes as well

They seem pretty strong (would not say they are over engineered though) but they certainly don't move (I didn't bother bolting to the floor, just the wall).

cheers

[Scotty vino]

I recently bought a new 'old' house and have been renovating for 6 weeks now.
Today i met with the previous owner and during a casual conversation regards the history of the place,
I was informed there is a cellar under the laundry.
News to me! Apparently it still exists. Just gotta lift some tiles and timber and whatever else to get to it.

Here's hoping it's not full of dirt, water or concrete.

[michel]

Post a photo

[vovo]

That's a pretty cool find.

[Ozzie W]

You never know your luck. There might even be some bottles of Grange in that hidden cellar. It's happened before:

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-o ... es-7232557

[Scotty vino]

Post a photo

I will when the time comes to start having a look. With only the previous owners daughters memory to go off,
it might take a few goes to actually locate the entrance but I'll definitely be having a go.
She stood in one spot and said 'It was here, the stairs were here" and that was it.
Needless to say I'm trying to work it out by peaking behind cupboards and looking down behind old skirting boards.
Also considering asking the council/titles office for a more detailed/original floor plan.

[Scotty vino]

You never know your luck. There might even be some bottles of Grange in that hidden cellar. It's happened before:

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-o ... es-7232557

One can dream!
My only hope is that it's not been filled in. Asking building mates they think
it has most likely been filled with bricks and any old building waste as filling it with
dirt or concrete is way too expensive and actually not really necessary.

But until I peel back the floating floors covering the old original timber floors i'm stuck guessing.

[Scotty vino]

SO i pulled back some boards and had a look finally.
I found a single space 1800mm X 1800mm X 1800/2000mm(depth is at least 1800mm) with a 1870mm staircase
adjacent with 700mm wide stairs.
The whole thing is probably 1/3 full of rubble but it's all loose and easily removed in a day or 2 I reckon.
I'm planning to install a couple of racks and maybe a small table etc etc. Usual setup I suppose.
The stairs go straight down then do a left turn thru a doorway into the actual space.
There's a slight damp issue but that hasn't been helped by the floating floors
that were installed over plastic over the original timber floors.
Gonna reopen the side wall vent on the outside than crank an old desk fan in there.
I'm pulling the floating floors up tomorrow night and letting it breathe a little.

Might have to replace a joist or two as well. the white ants have had their way
but luckily the joists are jarrah so they haven't been chewed too bad.