Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

[Polymer]

Polymer

Rambling posts posted late at night on the topic of wine sort of indicate the poster maaaaaay have been dipping into the subject matter just a tad too much.

Personally, I think Felixp's points are valid. These tastings are chalk and cheese, apples and oranges, heaven and earth etc. Putting up heavily structured top growth French wines which are designed to last 25-50 years against Australian wines which, by their own winemakers' admissions, are intended to be consumed much much earlier if not immediately is a pointless exercise. The vast majority of Australians do not cellar reds and hence 99% of our wines are designed to be consumed within 24 hours of purchase.

Everyone's seen and tasted Coonawarra red that will last the distance (I've got a cellar with a few of them, JR, Tally, etc) but genuine Aussie stayers that can match the longevity and structure of the likes of the Lynch Bages and Leoville Les Cases are few and far between and come only once or twice a decade. If we are going to have these tast offs between countries then Felixp's fundamental point, which you appear to have overlooked, is go for French wines further down the scale and at a price point closer to the Australian wines that are meant to be consumed in the same time frame as the Australian wines.

Mark

Again, I've said there are valid points with his argument..but to say those particular wines or a lot of Coonawarras (the better ones) are 10 year wines is an exaggeration...Coonawarras, the better ones, are not very drinkable early on...They're certainly not more approachable than Napa cabs...I'm making the point that those wines go 25 years...I'm not saying they're 50 year wines...but really, who cares if they aren't? They ARE 25 year wines without a doubt...having seen good years in Coonawarra easily go 25 for all of the mid/upper tier..I know this is true...at least for what my tastes are, they're 25+ year wines and at 10 year they still have a lot of fat to shed...

I know showing young Bordeaux early is a bit of a slanted exercise..and again why you have blind tastings (two of them on youtube) where Reignac destroys a bunch of First growths...and since I've now mentioned that point twice, I obviously understand the point...but I don't think they're picking those wines because they think they'll show poorly...they picked those wines because they have name recognition, aren't terribly hard to find, and aren't stupidly expensive (like a Lafite).

Here's something else to think about....although the excuse will be Bordeaux in the 70s wasn't great (not saying it was fantastic either).
Judgement of Paris was dominated, IMO, by French wines..it is just the top wine was Napa...But you can look at the structure of the Napa wines (I'm somewhat extrapolating style from what I've read/talked to people about comparing young Marthas and Ridge to the style they used back then) and they're not nearly as structured as their French counterparts were (again, from what I've read and extrapolated from different sources) and yet they more or less dominated this tasting....So by what you're saying they should've shown poorly..but didn't..maybe it was the more experienced French palate of being used to young Bordeaux...
But then 30 years later, in a revisit to the tasting, they were completed dominated. Given they should be 25-50 year wines, shouldn't they now be dominating?

What is the point of mentioning that? Nothing really...I think my main point is who really cares? Does it really matter?
Young Bordeaux, for most drinkers, is not a fun time and I agree, I don't see a real point in putting them up against other wines because they just don't show well..but I doubt they put them in that slot hoping for that (maybe they did...but I don't think so). At the same time, one could argue that is a fair assessment of those wines...why is it that Napa Cabs can show much better young AND age? Why is it that some of the French actually ENJOY their Bordeaux young...

I think these types of tastings are all in fun..and a good way to show contrasting styles...They're not meant to show what is the best wine because it doesn't do that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1leRdKluE7I

Here's the Reignac tasting....a perfect example of a more approachable or more ready to drink wine in amongst a bunch of First Growths.....But is anyone coming away from this saying Reignac is a better wine? Doubt it...one might say that thinking people might come to that conclusion is ridiculous.... It might've shown better on the day on on the year or on the decade...but it isn't a better wine...

Apply that to this tasting...Is the fact that a Coonawarra got the most votes saying that everyone there thinks(or should think) Coonawarra had the best wine? Or makes the best wine? One might say thinking people are coming to that conclusion is ridiculous....

[Chris H]

Picking up Redwine&rum's question, I find Margaret River much closer to a Bordeaux style than most Coonawarra's, but I guess you can always pick exceptions to the rule. Older Cullen and Cape Mentelle come to mind.

In that respect, I think the annual Cape Mentelle exercise is valid because the styles are more similar than Coonawarra and Bordeaux, and I always like to read Walshie's tasting notes on WineFront each year. However from this thread, it appears others don't think so and that is their right (as much as it is mine to disagree with them).

I'd like to thank Malcolm for his post and equally Felix for his retort. Always good to read things that make you think. My only comment to Felix would be that sometimes it is not what you say, but how you say it that can make a difference to the reception of the comments

[rooman]

Young Bordeaux, for most drinkers, is not a fun time and I agree, I don't see a real point in putting them up against other wines because they just don't show well..but I doubt they put them in that slot hoping for that (maybe they did...but I don't think so). .

Polymer

I believe this is the nub of this long discussion. I am highly cynical about many of these tasting especially when you see highly tannic monsters such as Lynch Bages and LLC selected. The cynic in me says these wines are set up to fail from the outset and therefore by extension validate the local wines at a time of increased foreign wine consumption. If I was putting up Bowen which is a lovely wine against a French wine then I would chose a more accessible French example which is closer in price such as Ch Batailley for my comparison. To my mind, this is a more honest assessment.

As to why do I care, there are many reasons. I read of a tasting in MR in recent years where they put up First Growths from 2010 which are frankly tannic monsters against local MR wines then concluded the First Growths were the lesser wines on the evening. At the time it struck me as a completely pointless exercise and yet one that many less pointy head wine drinkers would latch onto as "evidence" that a good Aus wine is superior to French. Its the sort of frustration I have seen expressed by various wine critics as to the power of social media and the posting of wine reviews by every man and his dog, present company excluded. I hate having to listen to people go on about how over rated French or Italian or even top level Australian wines are because they read somewhere that a Bowen was "judged" better than a Ch Latour in tasting that was in my view rigged. It is also the reason I avoid seriously discussing wine with most people unless it is fellow forumites or collectors.

Mark

[odyssey]

he likes to stir the pot a bit...which is great.

This.

I have a feeling swirler was referring to my post elsewhere. My now-edited comment was a definite ribbing - surely pot stirrers can take some ribbing and pot stirring as well as they can give?

After all, Swirler you yourself once said of felixp:

Felix, that's rather a sweeping statement, even for you

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14725&p=127041#p127041
(highlighting was added by me for emphasis)

So with that "even for you", you yourself have shown some signs of having some prior knowledge of this - and you gave him a mild ribbing in that post, I might add.

Now, onto the actual topic, for the record I see both sides of this argument and agree with points from both Felix's and Polymers comments. I find that many Coonawarra wines age excellently at 25 years, there are not many over-$25 (modern-day pricing equivalent)1990 Coonawarra wines I would turn my nose up, redman included. But with regards to the tasting, the quality levels of the wines, especially with regards to drinking window, being compared are like chalk and chips. The best of Bordeaux which would likely be just entering their drinking window. But then so would the best of Coonawarra (1990-1991 John Riddochs especially, I wouldn't open a JR from a decent vintage any younger than that).

[winetastic]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons where does everyone think Coonawarra Cabernet stands in comparison to Margaret River Cabernet? Bordeaux v California v Coonawarra. This is assuming that Coonawarra produces Australia's best cabernet. There are some absolutely cracking Cabernets coming out of Margaret River at the moment and have been for some time.

I believe Margaret River is ahead of Coonawarra by a country mile.

Have only limited exposure to California Cabs, however the mid-teir bottles I've had while in the states (USD 60-100) were on par with their cost counterparts here in Australia. Many were heavily oaked, which I find hard to swallow. Bordeaux at the same price point has been very variable for me, but has hit greater heights when on song. Sadly I cannot afford top end Bordeaux.

[rooman]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons where does everyone think Coonawarra Cabernet stands in comparison to Margaret River Cabernet? Bordeaux v California v Coonawarra. This is assuming that Coonawarra produces Australia's best cabernet. There are some absolutely cracking Cabernets coming out of Margaret River at the moment and have been for some time.

I believe Margaret River is ahead of Coonawarra by a country mile.

I am with you on this point. Although it has not been a conscious decision, having had a look at cellartracker, I have a much wider range and deeper vertical spread of MR over Coonawarra. It seems the only current Coonawarra wines I have are Wynns Black Label and JR and Balnaves, Cab Sav and Tally. On the JR, I tried one of the 98s recently and they are starting to open up for drinking.

Mark

[mjs]

I believe this is the nub of this long discussion. I am highly cynical about many of these tasting especially when you see highly tannic monsters such as Lynch Bages and LLC selected. The cynic in me says these wines are set up to fail from the outset and therefore by extension validate the local wines at a time of increased foreign wine consumption.
Mark

I would not describe the LB and LLC tasted last Saturday as "highly tannic monsters", plenty of tannin, but I felt that they both had reasonable balance for quite young wines, particularly the LLC. Both with obvious potential for ageing and will do so of course. There were other wines that were equally as tannic.

I would also mention that in response to all the posted angsty hand-wringing about these sorts of tastings drawing unjustified conclusions along the lines of "I got all the votes, so therefore my wine must be heaps better than youse ", there was no such thing in Coonawarra. It was very low key, yes there was an informal vote, but no conclusion was drawn from that at all. It was more along the lines of "interesting, high quality tasting, happy to drink all of those wines". To me all of the wines were well made, perhaps a slight question mark over the Stag's Leap, all with potential to age (which I was looking for). Lots of discussion about similarities in the country brackets, a number of punters on the floor contributing their comments on individual wines, including where they thought the wine might be from. Great FUN.

Last year's masterclass focussed on recent cabernets from the Southern hemisphere, i.e. Oz, NZ, SA, Chile and Argentine. Again, low key, educational and very enjoyable. One other Coonawarra Cabernet Weekend masterclass which I participated in was way back in 1998 and this one did in fact focus on old Coonawarra and Coonawarra/other region blends. Fabulous wines up to 44yo which were a true privilege to drink.

Tbh, happy that everyone has their view, but for me it doesn't get much better than that between 10am and noon on a Saturday!!

[swirler]

he likes to stir the pot a bit...which is great.

This.

I have a feeling swirler was referring to my post elsewhere. My now-edited comment was a definite ribbing - surely pot stirrers can take some ribbing and pot stirring as well as they can give?

After all, Swirler you yourself once said of felixp:

Felix, that's rather a sweeping statement, even for you

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14725&p=127041#p127041
(the bold bit was highlighted by me for emphasis and was not part of the original post)

So with that "even for you", you yourself have shown some signs of having some prior knowledge of this - and you gave him a mild ribbing in that post, I might add.

I take the Fifth. Please refer to my lawyers in future.....

Seriously, it's one thing stirring the pot with exaggerated statements and another thing personal comments/attacks. It wasn't hinted at being a joke, at least when I read it. I don't believe Felix has ever attacked anyone when he trolls (joke) these boards. He certainly gets good discussions started.

Maybe we've said enough on this matter, now?

Back on topic....

Actually, I know for a fact that Coonawarra struggles to sell its wines, whereas Margaret River wines are in high demand.

And, yes, I too think these tastings are usually rigged and only good for starting pointless discussions




Seriously, again, I've found this discussion quite interesting....

[mjs]

Actually, I know for a fact that Coonawarra struggles to sell its wines, whereas Margaret River wines are in high demand.

And, yes, I too think these tastings are usually rigged and only good for starting pointless discussions :

Seriously, again, I've found this discussion quite interesting....

Yes, back on topic and that interesting discussion ...

Be interested to know how you know for a fact that Coonawarra struggles and MR is going gang busters?
My observations from the market is that MR is suffering from a glut and a lot of wine is being flogged off for bugger all, even though MR is a bit of flavour of the month at the moment. There are a few labels that are very solid, but a lot of stuff appears to be slashed in price in order to shift it. Certainly my experience with MR wines generally is that I haven't seen any medium level stuff that really floats my boat. Couple of gratuitous comments ... too much fruit, overblown styles.

[swirler]

Often wines are auctioned off when a distributor goes bust. Nothing to do with supply and demand.

Sorry, I can't explain your other point on a public forum.

[mjs]

Seems to me that there's too much cheap MR around just to represent a distributor or two going bust. That's not necessarily a bad thing for the consumer in the short term of course.

[swirler]

I'm only seeing Woodlands in any great quantities.

[winetastic]

I'm only seeing Woodlands in any great quantities.

I actually had a brief discussion at the Woodlands cellar door recently about this. They were a little cagey, however it seems that the auction site in question has bought a large quantity of entry level woodlands wine (cab/merlot mostly) directly from them at a fixed price, these are then seemingly put out as loss leaders on said auction site, perhaps to build up the idea that there are bargains to be had more broadly.

[dave vino]

They have the Margaret and Chloe Woodlands which are their more upper end stuff. (plus the entry level cab/merlot stuff). And like you I am amazed at the quantities they seemingly have.

[swirler]

I've seen it on other auction sites, too. Maybe just flippers?

Edit: Don't think it's flippers as the prices are too low. Unless they are just trying to recover as much as possible from a bad punt?

[swirler]

They have the Margaret and Chloe Woodlands which are their more upper end stuff. (plus the entry level cab/merlot stuff). And like you I am amazed at the quantities they seemingly have.

Yes. It's been going on over 2 vintages. Chardonnay, cabernet sauvignon-merlot, cabernet franc-merlot, Chloe chardonnay and Margaret cabernet blend.

[swirler]

I'm only seeing Woodlands in any great quantities.

I actually had a brief discussion at the Woodlands cellar door recently about this. They were a little cagey, however it seems that the auction site in question has bought a large quantity of entry level woodlands wine (cab/merlot mostly) directly from them at a fixed price, these are then seemingly put out as loss leaders on said auction site, perhaps to build up the idea that there are bargains to be had more broadly.

Very interesting. Also the huge quantities of 2010 Barolo may come from the same source. It's like gold dust for local distributors who can't get enough of the stuff, yet it's going for less than cost price on many auction sites.

I bet Gavin knows, but it's probably not something he can comment on (?)

[mjs]

Back OT, its not just Woodlands from my point of view, its a lot of other labels that are being off-loaded, particularly in the e-tailer arena

[grb2001]

The more people who prefer Margaret River wines the better as far as I'm concerned.
Very happy to still be able to pick up reasonably priced Coonawarra reds!

[Redwine&Rum]

The more people who prefer Margaret River wines the better as far as I'm concerned.
Very happy to still be able to pick up reasonably priced Coonawarra reds!

I'm with you on this one. Had quite a few more Coonawarra reds than Margaret River, but my palate prefers the Coonawarra reds.