Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

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mjs
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Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by mjs »

In 1976 Steven Spurrier, an English wine merchant organised a blind tasting of four Bordeaux chateaux and six Californian cabernets by French wine judges. Spurrier sold only French wine and believed the French wine would come out on top. This wasn't the case and the Californian wines performed well with Stag's Leap Cellars SLV Cabernet taking out top honours, surprising most and changing the world's view of Californian wine. For his trouble, Spurrier was banned from the nation's wine tastings tour by the French for twelve months. The wines at this tasting were

1973 Stag's Leap Wine Cellars*
1971 Ridge Vineyard's Monte Bello*
1970 Heitz Winer Cellars Martha's Vineyards
1972 Clos Du Val
1971 Mayacamas Vineyards
1969 Freemark Abbey Winery

1970 Ch Mouton-Rothschild
1970 Ch Montrose*
1970 Ch Haut-Brion
1971 Ch Leoville Las Cases*

A similar 30th anniversary event with the same wines (same years) was repeated by Spurrier in 2006, and again the Californian wines dominated the tasting filling the top five spots.

As part of this year's Coonawarra Cabernet Celebration weekend, a similar tasting was held in the John Riddoch Room at Wynns Coonawarra Cellars on Saturday 17 October 2015 to pit French vs Californian vs Coonawarra cabernet or cabernet blend wines in a Coonawarra version of "The Judgement of Paris". All of the wines were from 2010 or 2012. They included three Bordeaux chateaux (including two of the chateaux* in the original tasting), three Californian wines (again including two of the labels* in the original tasting) and six wines from Coonawarra. They were tasted blind in no particular order and were only revealed after considerable discussion at the end.

The tasting was led by a panel consisting of Sue Bell, a winemaker from Coonawarra who has many awards and has completed 25 vintages including Bordeaux, California and 17 in the Limestone Coast, Margot Muir, a "wine tragic", judge and well known figure in the wine trade in Adelaide, with master of ceremonies, Brett Sharpe who has been making wine for more than 20 years, more recently having responsibility for the Lindemans "Trio" wines. There were about thirty participants, including many well known Coonawarra wine makers. This shot shows Margot, Brett and Sue.

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The glasses were all pre-poured and after introductions and discussions about the three regions, the tasting lasted about an hour, before further discussion about the individual wines.

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My notes follow under the actual wine headings, as they were recorded when the wines were still masked. Towards the end of the tasting, it was revealed that wines 1, 7 and 9 came from the same country, as did 3, 8 and 11, as did 2, 4, 5, 6 10 and 12 (clearly the Coonawarra wines), but without revealing which wines were which, in order to have a further discussion about regional similarities. The wines were eventually revealed and a show of hands (non-Coonawarra participants) was taken to give a "winner". In the discussion about region, it seemed universally acknowledged that the Coonawarra wines seemed to exhibit very good acid structure. There were subtle regional similarities and I was both surprised and pleased that (barely) on average, I seemed to be able to differentiate the French from the Californian from the Coonawarra wines.

1. 2010 Ch Lynch Bages
Nice fruit bouquet, some oak, cedar, cigar box, bright fruit, chalky tannins, fresh acidity, dense, cassis
Thought this was French

2. 2012 Yalumba "The Menzies" Cabernet Sauvignon
little closed, bright fruit in the mouth, good balance, finish, a little juicy fruit character, eventually beautiful oak on the bouquet
Probably Coonawarra

3. 2012 Berringer Private Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon
Purple, a little closed, some cedar, chalky tannins, blackcurrants, opened up in the glass
Thought this might have been the Redman

4. 2012 Bowen Estate Cabernet Sauvignon
beautiful red black fruit bouquet, some oak,beautiful cedar notes, good acid, good fruit, perhaps a little austere abut persistent. Very good
Initially thought this might have been French but changed my mind and thought it was the Bowen

5. 2010 Redman Cabernet Merlot
little garnet edge, a little closed but also little estery, opened up later, some cedar, black fruits, quite grippy, interesting complexity
Thought this was either French or Californian, i.e. not Coonawarra

6. 2012 Lindemans "Pyrus"
oak, cassis, some red fruits, beautiful fruit in the mouth, tannins. lush, lots going on flavour wise
Thought this was the Pyrus

7. 2010 Ch Montrose
garnet edge, a little closed but opened up, slight plums but soft fruit, savoury, good acid, slight lack of structure
Thought this was French

8. 2012 Stag's Leap Cellars S.L.V. Cabernet Sauvignon
little bit of funk, maybe tobacco, coffee, supple fruit, creamy custard, oak
My least preferred, probably Californian

9. 2010 Ch Leoville-Las Cases
purple red, closed at first, some cedar, beautiful fruit structure, delicious, tannins, beautiful wine, elegance
My preferred wine of the tasting, thought this was French

10. 2012 Balnaves "The Tally" Cabernet Sauvignon
closed but opened up, beautiful plush red purple appearance, medium bodied, firm tannins, touch of menthol, black fruits
probably Coonawarra

11. 2012 Ridge Monte Bello Cabernet Sauvignon
little brick edge, but dense colour, slightly jammy nose, some dustiness as well, bit of coffee, am oak?, plush fruit, length violets, spice, but a little oxidative style
Thought this was Californian

12. 2012 Jack Estate "Mythology" Cabernet Sauvignon
red purple, beautiful cedar notes, cassis, black fruits, layers of fruit and tannin, great structure, beautiful
Thought this might have been French :roll: :roll:

Here are the wines as they were revealed

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It was interesting that the wines seemed very even in terms of quality and winemaking, perhaps the Stag's Leap and the Ridge Monte Bello were a little less up there for me. but it was close. It was noted that a tasting some 40 years earlier would have been nowhere as even, perhaps a testament to the overall improvement in winemaking throughout the world.

With a show of hands, the top vote winners were the Jack Estate on five votes and the Leoville on four votes. The Leoville was my WOTT. Others got two and one votes. Certainly the Jack Estate was very impressive. In truth, most of us would have been perfectly happy to drink almost any of the wines. All in all, a great tasting as part of a very enjoyable weekend of wine and food events in Coonawarra. Really did show the overall quality of wines from all three regions, certainly Coonawarra was right up there.
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felixp
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by felixp »

Please do not think I am being rude, just a general comment.
These "aren't Aussie wines great" tastings are an absolute abomination. Indescribably ridiculous.
Who in their right mind would ever think Lynch, LLC and Montrose would be even close to drinkable at 5 years of age? I just cannot believe this rubbish continues, but undoubtedly it will. And a 3yr old Ridge?? Holy smokes :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Firstly, bring those wines back in 25 years, dear organisers. Please, go on, do it. Please, just for once, someone do it. It will never happen, we all know that.

Secondly, if you really have to compare, buy some $50-70 lesser Bordeaux that are designed and made to be drunk in the first 20 years of their life, exactly as the Aussie wines are. Then you are comparing apples with apples. I can think of, literally, 50 Bordeaux wines that currently taste better and drink better than all of those three Bordeaux right now and cost 10-20% of their price. My 50 is a small sample, there are literally hundreds that would out-perform them.

Sorry, Coonawarra is "not right up there"
It produces fantastic $20-120 wines, even up to $350 if you want to include 707 and even more with the other one-off specials.
But there is a reason that people pay more than 5-10 times that amount for Bordeaux, or Napa for that matter. It is not because the World is completely full of stupid idiots that have nothing better to do with their money than to waste it on over-priced French dross, it is because in general, the wines of Bordeaux, at the classified level certainly, and lower down in the great vintages, are substantially better!!!!! End of story!! No, sorry general motors, sorry Ford, you might think you make a great product but the world thinks Porsche and Mercedes are better and therefore are prepared to pay more!!!

I seriously wish the Australian wine industry would get over it's inferiority complex.

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by Rocky »

Wow Felixp, that's one serious hot rant. Got your point.
Relax and have a glass.

Cheers

Polymer
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by Polymer »

I actually think Coonawarras age quite nicely..25 years is not an issue...Don't know about the Menzies but all of the other ones will easily go 25 years or longer...I wouldn't be reluctant to do this with these same wines in 25 years...I actually think there would be some surprises..

Keep in mind that even for the original Judgement of Paris (which used very young Bordeaux and Napa Cabs), it was expected that the CA wines would get blown out ...They did a 30th Anniversary one as well with the same wines (I think they were all the same but same time period) and CA also came out on top...

I also don't think most Coonawarra cabs are meant to be drunk that young either...Napa cabs are at least as if not more accessible early on (depends on which ones) so if anything they should've had the biggest advantage...

I actually like these types of events..I think it shows a good contrast...I don't think these types events prove anything because everyone's preferences will be different...but I do think it is good for people to see the differences and the similarities and often it is a good gauge for the region. I mean, if you want to see where your cabs stack up side by side, Bordeaux and Napa are probably two good places to compare yourselves to.

Also, one thing to consider...if young high end bordeaux is not going to show well young (and there are actually people that like drinking them young...in France) that is something people have to consider when buying it...Coming back to the 2005 Bordeaux..that might be another 15 years away before drinking nicely...The idea of waiting 20+ years before a wine starts drinking well is not something that is attractive...and there is not even a guarantee it'll age well or that particular bottle will be ok (dodgy corks). While I agree that doing a tasting with very young Bordeaux like that isn't going to get you very far ...I think that is still something people should see in contrast..

Not a big fan of a marketing session...but I would've enjoyed this event if I had the opportunity to go....and I appreciate the notes and comments by mjs...great stuff...

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mjs
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by mjs »

Sacre bleu!! Clearly some indignation at the very impertinence of suggesting an association of the world's wine riff-raff with the Holy Grail!! Coonawarra "right up there" indeed!! Mon dieu! :lol: :lol:

Seriously, I think you have to take it for what it was, an interesting tasting based on a format of a tasting from 1976. Yes, the wines were all young, as they were in 1976. Didn't necessarily prove anything, it was just a very interesting comparison. Certainly it would be vinfanticide to drink any of the wines now, but you have to start tasting somewhere, you're not going to wait 30yrs.

As I mentioned (and Polymer noted), Spurrier organised a 30th anniversary tasting in 2006 of the same wines, i.e. now 30+yo. I can only assume that this was a reasonably rigorous tasting (blind, mix of judges, tasters etc) and the results were, in order of preference:

1. Ridge Vineyards Monte Bello 1971
2. Stag's Leap Wine Cellars 1973
3. Mayacamas Vineyards 1971 equal with Heitz Wine cellars "Martha's Vineyard 1970
5. Clos du Val Winery 1972
6. Ch Mouton Rothschild 1970
7. Ch Montrose 1970
8. Chateau Haut Brion 1970
9. Ch Leoville-Las Cases 19771
10. Freemark Abbey Wines 1969

Doesn't necessarily prove anything, it just tells you that on the day, the judges preferred the wines shown in the glass in that particular order. That's what's interesting about wine and wine tastings.

I would love to do the same tasting from the weekend, but with the wines at 20+ yo, but on the day that wasn't the format. I've had some very good, even exceptional old Coonawarra and Bordeaux wines and some pretty average ones as well. There were a lot of very experienced people tasting there on the day, far more experienced than myself and the consensus was that it was a fascinating tasting, all of the wines were very good. In fact there was a comment made that the winemaking styles seemed to have converged a little., which I think is probably right.

All good fun.
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by Mike Hawkins »

I think the advantage Spurrier's tasting has is independence... whereas local tasters will often tend to prefer local wines... the ones they grew up with and drink most often...

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by mjs »

Yes, there is some "cellar palate" in all of us. The interesting thing about the 1976 tasting was that of all the judges, only the French judges' scores were counted, and they rated the Stag's Leap highest.

Saturday's event was far less formal, although the voting, such as it was, was only by non-Coonawarra people.
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by felixp »

the Spurrier event was a great landmark in the wine industry.

Why? Because, as I have mentioned countless times on this BB, (as recently as yesterday!!!!) back in the 70's, Bordeaux was producing far, far too much absolute dross, and that tasting certainly exposed lazy and arrogant winemakers for what they were doing, ... resting on their Chateau's reputations.
It was really the start of the tide of change in Bordeaux, over the next 30 years the region transformed into what it is today, an area almost unrecognisable from 40 years ago. People often say Parker was the critic who lit the fuse, my feeling has a always been that the Spurrier event was the pioneer for change.

From what I hear, Spurrier held the event for that exact purpose, and he indeed thought the results would go the way they did. As a huge importer of Bordeaux, he wanted to see change, as did many consumers (including a young me, who much preferred to drink Coonawarra cabs than 80% of the garbage Bordeaux was producing)

But let's not get confused here, most of those Napa cabs sell for as much as the Bordeaux super seconds, and of course we now have several California cab-based wines that sell for far in excess of FG price. Again, why? because they are extremely good wines, and the market place is prepared to pay a premium for such. Therefore, the re-taste in 06 is not that surprising a result, particularly as Bordeaux is a marginal cool-climate region and poor vintages do indeed make pretty poor wines (especially back in those days before optical sorting, reverse osmosis etc etc )

I would not agree that Coonawarra wines are made to "peak" at age 25 years. Sure, maybe the very top Pennies stuff, the "block" wines and 707(multi-region), are made in such a style, but the stuff tasted like Lindemans, Bowen, Mildara and Redman certainly are not (those wines from the mid-90's are now past it). Redman and Mildara of modern times is lucky to make a decade.

Do I like Coonawarra cabs? Yep, they have a place in the scheme of things, indeed, as somebody who has drunk quality wine for approaching 40 years (legally) I still count a Coonawarra Cab as the greatest single wine I have ever seen. But to draw the conclusion that the standard offerings of modern-day Coonawarra produce wines that are "right up there" with Bordeaux and Napa because of the above tasting is totally flawed. (and it would seem to me that the world market place agrees with me)

Trust me, wine lovers from France, USA, England Europe, and indeed much of Asia know of, and have tasted, the wines of Coonawarra. It is not a secret, hidden Shangri-La that only Aussie wine lovers enjoy. If a $15 Bowen Cab was as good as a $500 Montrose or $350 SLV, then they would be buying the stuff.... in droves.

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by rooman »

I have to say I agree with Felixp's initial sentiment. I also find many of these taste-offs between Australian cab savs and first and second tier growth Bordeaux wines a ridiculous concept. As Felixp stated above, the first growths and many of the 2nd - 5th growths are built for the long haul (20+ years) far more so than comparable Australian wines with the possible exception of Penfolds 707. So opening them within a few years of being bottled especially from big vintages and then putting them up against Australian wines that are meant to be far more accessible early on is simply rigging the deck. Felixp's very valid point was if we insist on these type of country comparisons then lets choice French wines which are cheaper (cheaper being a relative concept ie closer to $100 than $1500 pb) and chose wines that meant to be consumed now or over the next 10-15 years.

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by swirler »

rooman wrote:I have to say I agree with Felixp's initial sentiment. I also find many of these taste-offs between Australian cab savs and first and second tier growth Bordeaux wines a ridiculous concept. As Felixp stated above, the first growths and many of the 2nd - 5th growths are built for the long haul (20+ years) far more so than comparable Australian wines with the possible exception of Penfolds 707. So opening them within a few years of being bottled especially from big vintages and then putting them up against Australian wines that are meant to be far more accessible early on is simply rigging the deck. Felixp's very valid point was if we insist on these type of country comparisons then lets choice French wines which are cheaper (cheaper being a relative concept ie closer to $100 than $1500 pb) and chose wines that meant to be consumed now or over the next 10-15 years.


This.

The fact that the OP could tell which were CW and which were French tells you everything. The judges obviously prefer the local style more.

These comparisons only work when the wines all have a similar style and the focus is on the quality IMHO.

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by dave vino »

I thought how we did our 'Judgement' dinner was pretty good :D

They had a bit of age, there were different tiers and different countries etc.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14168

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by felixp »

dave vino wrote:I thought how we did our 'Judgement' dinner was pretty good :D

They had a bit of age, there were different tiers and different countries etc.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14168



you should send this to the organisers of the above tasting. :wink:
too bad you didn't include a 96 Bowen Estate, Pyrus and Redman in that tasting, to prove a point.

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by maybs »

I remain concerned that Felixp may die prematurely of a stress related heart attack Relax mate, you will live longer :D
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by Polymer »

felixp wrote:But let's not get confused here, most of those Napa cabs sell for as much as the Bordeaux super seconds, and of course we now have several California cab-based wines that sell for far in excess of FG price. Again, why? because they are extremely good wines, and the market place is prepared to pay a premium for such. Therefore, the re-taste in 06 is not that surprising a result, particularly as Bordeaux is a marginal cool-climate region and poor vintages do indeed make pretty poor wines (especially back in those days before optical sorting, reverse osmosis etc etc )

They weren't poor vintages at the time...in retrospect they might be very ordinary ones...But your wine god Parker puts them 85-90 for vintage....and I don't think Spurrier was expecting France to get trounced...from what I've read that wasn't the case..but who knows...revisionist history...
felixp wrote:
I would not agree that Coonawarra wines are made to "peak" at age 25 years. Sure, maybe the very top Pennies stuff, the "block" wines and 707(multi-region), are made in such a style, but the stuff tasted like Lindemans, Bowen, Mildara and Redman certainly are not (those wines from the mid-90's are now past it). Redman and Mildara of modern times is lucky to make a decade.

Disagree...Have had Lindemans, Bowen and Redman from 90/91 and they're still going strong...even brought a 90 or 91 Bowen to an offline and it was looking quite good...for 25 years of age...They're not 10 year wines and I'd argue most decent Coonawarra Cabs are still going to be borderline too young at 10 years of age..Some of them have changed slightly in style to be more approachable and might not...but plenty are....Maybe in poor years they're not going to go 25...but good years in the Coonawarra are an easy 25 year wine...2012 was a good year.
felixp wrote:Do I like Coonawarra cabs? Yep, they have a place in the scheme of things, indeed, as somebody who has drunk quality wine for approaching 40 years (legally) I still count a Coonawarra Cab as the greatest single wine I have ever seen. But to draw the conclusion that the standard offerings of modern-day Coonawarra produce wines that are "right up there" with Bordeaux and Napa because of the above tasting is totally flawed. (and it would seem to me that the world market place agrees with me)

I don't think that is the conclusion...I think the conclusion is there are some very good wines coming out of the Coonawarra...very age worthy wines...Are they up there with Napa and Bordeaux? I don't think so..but can you get something pretty good at a reasonable price that ages well? Yes you can...The gap isn't so large that there is just no reason to buy Coonawarra....I don't think you can run into any conclusions with this type of tasting except that there are some quality wines out of a region.....5 people agreeing that a Coonawarra was their favorite means what? Just that five people agreed...

The world market place isn't based on purely on quality...I'm sure you must realize that already...Not saying quality isn't an important component..it is...but blind tastings are a funny thing...which is why Reignac has trounced first growths twice in blind tastings...doesn't mean it is a better wine..just means it was showing better on the day...

felixp wrote:Trust me, wine lovers from France, USA, England Europe, and indeed much of Asia know of, and have tasted, the wines of Coonawarra. It is not a secret, hidden Shangri-La that only Aussie wine lovers enjoy. If a $15 Bowen Cab was as good as a $500 Montrose or $350 SLV, then they would be buying the stuff.... in droves.


SLV is 125..their flagship is Cask23...The SLV is meh...2012 was a great year for Napa and it is just ordinary IMO (overpriced)..Cask 23 is actually really good...

No one is saying Bowen is as good as those wines either...but is Bowen better value than those wines? Easy yes....

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by mjs »

Yes, I certainly seem to have hit a nerve. I just said Coonawarra is "up there", I didn't say Coonawarra is as good as or better than Bordeaux. Perhaps just take the tasting for what it was, an interesting exercise, ok obviously not to the purist liking.

No-one in under any illusions here. Bordeaux is arguably the most important wine region in the world, I first went there in 1983 and have spent time at a number of the chateaux. Whereas Coonawarra is but a cigar shaped smear on the landscape half a world away, albeit a lot easier for most in Australia to get to. At last count, 23 cellar doors, 5,600Ha under vine compared with Bordeaux at 120,000Ha for the whole Gironde and 8500 producers, including all of the great Chateaux. So, even though Coonawarra is arguably the most important red wine area in Australia, which changed the direction of Australian wine production and consumption in the 50's and 60's, it's not Bordeaux.

Having said that, I have had outstanding wines from Coonawarra well in excess of 30yo
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by mjs »

swirler wrote:The fact that the OP could tell which were CW and which were French tells you everything. The judges obviously prefer the local style more.

I would use the word "judges" loosely, there were no judges in the normal sense, just wine enthusiasts as far as I am aware, albeit quite experienced in many cases. I happened to endeavour to rate the wines on the basis of fruit, tannin, acid, structure and balance, to me all necessary components for good aging. I did think that the wine that got the most votes (by a whisker from the LLC, which got my vote) was Fr, but it happened to be a local wine. None of the Coonawarra residents were permitted to "vote".
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by felixp »

as stated, I was not trying to be rude, just pointing out the (far) too many flaws in these tastings, common in Australia, and starting to spring up in South America too. The only possible reason to have a tasting like that is to be able to say "see, our wines are as good as the best in the world" Cape Mentelle annoyingly do it pretty much every year.

As you say, there are Coonawarra wines that "make" 25 years old, but 99% do not "peak" then... glad you got a Redman from 1990 still doing well!!! Lucky you, go to the Langton's web site and you can pick up old vintages of Coonawarra like that for sub $30 every time!!! Never-the-less, I would be extremely confident that your bottle had seen better days, and if you could have a time capsule and taste it ten years ago, I'll give you London to a brick it was better :wink:

Like the St Kilda Football Club, every dog has it's day (1966), and indeed Coonawarra has made many amazing World-Class wines, but my argument is that these do not include the like of Bowen Estate or Lindemans Pyrus in any vintage of the last 40 years.

Agree re the Stag's Leap SLV, my bad, it was a typo. (I thought about $150 for you guys) Couldn't find it on Wine Searcher, but for interest's sake, LLC sells for about $600 and the Montrose $400 (IMO the Montrose will be the better wine)

Would love to see more tastings like the "Sydney" event described above, to get a real sense of where the quality is. :D







4

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mjs
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by mjs »

felixp wrote:As you say, there are Coonawarra wines that "make" 25 years old, but 99% do not "peak" then... glad you got a Redman from 1990 still doing well!!! Lucky you, go to the Langton's web site and you can pick up old vintages of Coonawarra like that for sub $30 every time!!! Never-the-less, I would be extremely confident that your bottle had seen better days, and if you could have a time capsule and taste it ten years ago, I'll give you London to a brick it was better :wink:

Like the St Kilda Football Club, every dog has it's day (1966), and indeed Coonawarra has made many amazing World-Class wines, but my argument is that these do not include the like of Bowen Estate or Lindemans Pyrus in any vintage of the last 40 years.

Perhaps we agree on a few things. There are numerous labels/years from Wynns, Rouge Homme, Mildara and Lindemans (not Pyrus) that are noted for quality and longevity. Other more recent labels such as Balnaves and Majella are emerging but not proven yet. I don't happen to rate Pyrus for the long haul, its not that sort of wine. I would be wary of a lot of older Redman, having said that, there was a '69 Claret at a Sydney off-line this year (from dave vino?) that was absolutely on song. Your comments about Bowen are noted, not sure that I totally agree, but I have to say I had a '75 Claret in June that was absolutely sensational. The '98 Bowen Ampelon is an exceptional shiraz which is still youthful and drinking very well.
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by sjw_11 »

I agree, how dare people compare their ordinary mere Aussie wines with French and US wines that the powers that be have determined are infinitely valuable while your mere plonk costs only "$15" and then have the unrestrained temerity to prefer the wines you actually like merely because you regularly drink and enjoy them!!

I personally don't bathe in anything that costs less than $350/bottle because we all know with certainty that price = quality and things never cost too much because of branding/scarcity/perceived luxury etc.

Now if you will excuse I need to post in a style forum about my new "H" belt, the epitome of style and a snip at €400... #hatersgonnahate
------------------------------------
Sam

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by swirler »

Felix. Great post. Agree 100%.

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phillisc
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by phillisc »

Malcolm, you must be so pleased that you reported on what sounds like a great tasting.

I can equally report in my most limited capacity of anything really old, that the 75 Bowen was singing, as I was at the same dinner.

In terms of Bordeaux, I wish that I could spend a couple weeks under your tutelage Felix, to be able to get the inside running on what is good and reasonably priced.

For those who don't think Coonawarra cabs age OK, its clear you need to take the cork out of an '82 JR. So glad I brought these on release for $11...just wish i had more than a case to go.

My 2c on a subject that I possibly know very little about.

Cheers
Craig
Tomorrow will be a good day

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phillisc
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by phillisc »

sjw_11 wrote:I agree, how dare people compare their ordinary mere Aussie wines with French and US wines that the powers that be have determined are infinitely valuable while your mere plonk costs only "$15" and then have the unrestrained temerity to prefer the wines you actually like merely because you regularly drink and enjoy them!!

I personally don't bathe in anything that costs less than $350/bottle because we all know with certainty that price = quality and things never cost too much because of branding/scarcity/perceived luxury etc.

Now if you will excuse I need to post in a style forum about my new "H" belt, the epitome of style and a snip at €400... #hatersgonnahate


Sam, still laughing here.
Not sure how you are going to top this for your soon to be 1000 post.
Cheers
Craig
Tomorrow will be a good day

Polymer
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by Polymer »

felixp wrote:As you say, there are Coonawarra wines that "make" 25 years old, but 99% do not "peak" then... glad you got a Redman from 1990 still doing well!!! Lucky you, go to the Langton's web site and you can pick up old vintages of Coonawarra like that for sub $30 every time!!! Never-the-less, I would be extremely confident that your bottle had seen better days, and if you could have a time capsule and taste it ten years ago, I'll give you London to a brick it was better :wink:


Who determines what the peak is? The ones I've had were probably at their peak or close to...and I doubt they would've been better 10 years earlier, not for me anyways. Point is, I see plenty of Coonawarras that are better off at 20-25 years than they are at 10 years...by a lot...They're just structured to last not that it matters..

felixp wrote:Like the St Kilda Football Club, every dog has it's day (1966), and indeed Coonawarra has made many amazing World-Class wines, but my argument is that these do not include the like of Bowen Estate or Lindemans Pyrus in any vintage of the last 40 years.

You keep suggesting what people are saying is these are world class world beating wines..and the only person saying that is you...They are well made wines though..and they easily go 25 years...nothing to suggest they won't (at least in the good years).

But who really cares how long they age? If someone made a wine that would need 75 years to peak, would that be a well made wine? Sure..but why the hell would anyone buy it?

felixp wrote:Would love to see more tastings like the "Sydney" event described above, to get a real sense of where the quality is. :D


Why this comment makes me laugh felix is...

I think you said something about the 96 707 beating most Bordeaux from that year...I think the Block 42 would have been a better wine...
And you also sort of poo poo'd the Sassicaia (97)...

And yet the Sydney tasting....the Block 42 was a near consensus bottom (I think only one person didn't put it there) and the Sassicaia was virtually tied with the Harlan for top honors (with the 96 Latour right behind)...although everyone agreed they were all great wines..

It doesn't mean the people tasting that night were right or you were wrong...Just find it ironic you'd make that comment when that tasting literally went against other comments you have made...

rooman
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by rooman »

Polymer

Rambling posts posted late at night on the topic of wine sort of indicate the poster maaaaaay have been dipping into the subject matter just a tad too much.

Personally, I think Felixp's points are valid. These tastings are chalk and cheese, apples and oranges, heaven and earth etc. Putting up heavily structured top growth French wines which are designed to last 25-50 years against Australian wines which, by their own winemakers' admissions, are intended to be consumed much much earlier if not immediately is a pointless exercise. The vast majority of Australians do not cellar reds and hence 99% of our wines are designed to be consumed within 24 hours of purchase.

Everyone's seen and tasted Coonawarra red that will last the distance (I've got a cellar with a few of them, JR, Tally, etc) but genuine Aussie stayers that can match the longevity and structure of the likes of the Lynch Bages and Leoville Les Cases are few and far between and come only once or twice a decade. If we are going to have these tast offs between countries then Felixp's fundamental point, which you appear to have overlooked, is go for French wines further down the scale and at a price point closer to the Australian wines that are meant to be consumed in the same time frame as the Australian wines.

Mark

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by Mike Hawkins »

phillisc wrote:For those who don't think Coonawarra cabs age OK, its clear you need to take the cork out of an '82 JR. So glad I brought these on release for $11...just wish i had more than a case to go.

My 2c on a subject that I possibly know very little about.

Cheers
Craig


Hi Craig, I 'll go a step further and suggest people taste the 71 and 76 Wynns Black Label (obviously pre-JR). These are sublime right now, though the vagaries of cork and storage don't make that statement an absolute. That said, and I'm guessing this is Felix's point, many Coonawarras weren't made to be kept that long, whereas those that were are often excellent. I think this post is a case of 'everyone is right to some degree !' (Now that I've played peacemaker, I'll try to post something inflammatory elsewhere...)


Cheers

Mike

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by swirler »

rooman wrote:Polymer

Rambling posts posted late at night on the topic of wine sort of indicate the poster maaaaaay have been dipping into the subject matter just a tad too much.

Personally, I think Felixp's points are valid. These tastings are chalk and cheese, apples and oranges, heaven and earth etc. Putting up heavily structured top growth French wines which are designed to last 25-50 years against Australian wines which, by their own winemakers' admissions, are intended to be consumed much much earlier if not immediately is a pointless exercise. The vast majority of Australians do not cellar reds and hence 99% of our wines are designed to be consumed within 24 hours of purchase.

Everyone's seen and tasted Coonawarra red that will last the distance (I've got a cellar with a few of them, JR, Tally, etc) but genuine Aussie stayers that can match the longevity and structure of the likes of the Lynch Bages and Leoville Les Cases are few and far between and come only once or twice a decade. If we are going to have these tast offs between countries then Felixp's fundamental point, which you appear to have overlooked, is go for French wines further down the scale and at a price point closer to the Australian wines that are meant to be consumed in the same time frame as the Australian wines.

Mark


Again, exactly how I feel and much better written than wot I wud of writ.

I Can't for the life of me see why Felix attracts such abuse. It's great to have something other than Barossa shiraz, McLaren Vale shiraz and coonawarra cabernet discussed here. And I'm sure Felix makes alot of comments with his tongue firmly placed in cheek.

Felix (Bordeaux), Mike (Champagne) and Jamie (Piedmont) must be the three most influential posters in terms of encouraging board members and lurkers to experiment outside of the Old School reds of South Australia. Yes, they have access and finances to experience a wider range of top quality drops that many others can only dream of. Is that a problem?

Another benefit is that this exploration of the cream of European wine also leads to people being more open to cooler climate/more elegant local styles, too. The Australian wine industry needs to develop in this direction to be competitive abroad.

This is not to knock Grange, HoG, RunRig and the like, it's just that they are not everybody's cup of tea, or at least, not every time.

Redwine&Rum
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by Redwine&Rum »

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons where does everyone think Coonawarra Cabernet stands in comparison to Margaret River Cabernet? Bordeaux v California v Coonawarra. This is assuming that Coonawarra produces Australia's best cabernet. There are some absolutely cracking Cabernets coming out of Margaret River at the moment and have been for some time.

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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by swirler »

Just my opinion, but if you are talking Bordeaux-alikes, I'd say:

1 Yarra Valley
2 Margaret River
3 Coonawarra

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phillisc
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by phillisc »

Mike Hawkins wrote:
phillisc wrote:For those who don't think Coonawarra cabs age OK, its clear you need to take the cork out of an '82 JR. So glad I brought these on release for $11...just wish i had more than a case to go.

My 2c on a subject that I possibly know very little about.

Cheers
Craig


Hi Craig, I 'll go a step further and suggest people taste the 71 and 76 Wynns Black Label (obviously pre-JR). These are sublime right now, though the vagaries of cork and storage don't make that statement an absolute. That said, and I'm guessing this is Felix's point, many Coonawarras weren't made to be kept that long, whereas those that were are often excellent. I think this post is a case of 'everyone is right to some degree !' (Now that I've played peacemaker, I'll try to post something inflammatory elsewhere...)


Cheers

Mike


Thanks Mike, I have couple of 66 BLs ( one in a magnum...should flog it next year for a 50th), some 68s, a 71, 72 and a couple of 76s.
I am certainly looking forward to them and thanks for the notes.
I agree with the pre JR days.
That said, 82 must have been a hell of a vintage, I have had numerous bottles of the BL from the same vintage and have said here before that it stacks up more than well against the JR...plush fruit that goes on and on.

Cheers
Craig
Tomorrow will be a good day

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phillisc
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Re: Judgement of Paris - The Coonawarra Version

Post by phillisc »

Don't think anyone is being abusive, Gavin would soon let us know.

What many punters here may find astounding and no more than me, that our international posters (Aussie ex-pats) have wonderful cellars, have exposures to wines that I have never heard of, let alone dream of, and perhaps because of the way we are so gouged in Australia, far more opportunities to purchase a wide diversity of wines at much more competitive prices. i also have learnt a lot from them, and enjoy reading their contributions.

I am not afraid to admit it, that the stunning purchases, the wonderful tasting and dining experiences, the global exploits etc etc. daunt me.
I have just spent a couple of weeks in Italy, fantastic holiday, and purchased a couple of bottles of wine each day. I tried to pick as many different regions as possible, knowing nothing about Italian wine, every purchase was a lottery. I found that some at 30 Euro dishwater, and some at 5 Euro absolutely lovely.

I enjoy Felix's posts, and unless I have read him really badly...he likes to stir the pot a bit...which is great.
Equally, don't think there are too many here that take offence.
We don't always have to agree.

Anyway onwards and upwards
Cheers
Craig
Tomorrow will be a good day

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