Kumeu River vs White Burgundy

[redwhiteandrose]

Felix,
Thanks, that explains a lot of your comments. On a slightly different note, cancelling your subscription to PP will certainly release fund to buy more of the wines JR doesn't like (but you like ) Win-win for you. She ain't cheap. On the other hand, JH site costs about the same as a bottle of Bin 28 for one year.....

[Polymer]

Hi Polymer,
the BBC series was about 1996 (?), I am sure if you google or you-tube it you will find it.

I don't think that has the pavie stuff..I'm pretty sure some of the wines you're mixing up there with JR..as in, I think the 2003 was called ridiculous..and the 98 was tasted far after release...

I know there were many that disagreed with JR..but there are quite a few that agree with her...There is no doubt Pavie is a very big, modern bordeaux...if you don't like that style then you're going to slam it...you only have to look at CT to see the contrasting opinions...

I also don't think this shows any bias against bordeaux or the old world..in fact, the whole problem she had with Pavie was that it wasn't Bordeaux like...and I'm sure everyone can agree, it is a heavily parkerized bordeaux...

[felixp]

sorry, Polymer, I didn't make myself clear.
yep, the series has nothing to do with the Pavie incidents. As I said, I think it was about 1996. I actually purchased the DVD, but recall it being on SBS on maybe a Tuesday evening back then.
But definitely the first instance was all about Pavie 1998, when HRH virtually went to war with Parker and, to a lesser extent, Suckling, at the time. The 2003 was a follow up. In between, she actually gave the 00 Pavie a pretty good score, and called it much more in the "traditional" style. As a Pavie fan, my taste must be too pitifully bad to recognise this difference, all three (98,00and 03) are similar and very very much in the Pavie style, and very very much different to the raft, no, actually, it was an ocean, of thin, green and woefully overpriced (for the quality) Bordeaux my father subjected me to drinking in the 70's.
The Brits really hated the American surge in Bordeaux, it was the first of many factors to send the prices spiralling, and that seemed to all come to a head a decade ago, sparked by the "Pavie" incident, as it is known... maybe now as famous as the judgement of Paris back in 76.
My impression of HRH will remain unchanged, and I know is shared by many forumites and ex-forumites of purple pages (like myself)... having read her stuff both in formal articles and informally in the forum (in which she is a surprisingly active participant). If you think classified Bordeaux, and to a lesser extent top-end Burgundy, is generally over-priced crap, then you will hang on everything she writes. Good for you if you agree with her, , good on her, for her opinion, but I respectfully completely disagree with an enormous amount that she writes.. Hence my lack of surprise when I saw she was one of the "judges", so I guess that is that!!!!!!!

[Polymer]

Can you provide sources for the 1998?

I'm asking because what I remember is 2003 being the blow up wine...where Jancis hammered it and RP went as far as to comment on her scoring/notes...But based on this

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/ ... eaux-blind

She hadn't had the 1998 Pavie until 2006 (or near there)...

I also don't think what you're saying about her is true...Nothing indicates she thinks high end bordeaux or burgundy is crap...she might think quite a bit of it is overpriced (although for some reason Bordeaux, even when cheaper seems more expensive than Burgundy) but that isn't quite the same thing....Just because she disliked the 2003 Pavie (or Pavie in general) doesn't mean she dislikes high end Bordeaux...There are quite a number of people that feel exactly the same way about that specific wine and Pavie in general..it just means for them, that style is not what they're looking for in Bordeaux...

I'm not trying to convince you to like JR..it makes no difference to me...I don't really care what JR says..or any other critic for that matter...but I don't think it helps when your "facts" are often mixed up...I'm not saying you're making it up..I'm sure that is how you remember it....and if you have sources to confirm what you're saying, I definitely want to understand the facts..but as I'm seeing it now, I think you've mixed up some of your information...

[felixp]

HRH only tasted Pavie 1998 in 2006???
Not sure if you are being serious, but in case you are, she has been to every Bordeaux EP for at least the past 25 years, and would certainly have first tasted the 1998 Pavie in 1999. The war started in the EP campaign of 1998, i.e. 1999. It just took Parker a few years to bite, I am sure much to her delight. If you go to the Parker web site now, he has just posted his views of the changing wine world since 1978 (the year he started), a great watch, and a real eye opener for those who believe the way many stereotype him.

Nothing else is mixed up in the slightest. And her continuous derogatory comments are certainly not restricted to Pavie, you can add many other St Emilion and Pomerol wines to that list, then throw in half of St Estephe and Graves in ripe years. then just add everything Rolland and Mouiex make, consult with, drive near, accidentally speak about, eat close to, or support the same football team as the winemaker.(in total fairness, Parker also often has a go at Petrus)

Anyway, enough on it, as I said above. You can have your opinion, I will keep mine. But I would prefer you stop telling me I am mixed up, just go use your google.

[Polymer]

Did you click on that link? She states that it is the first time she's had it..I'll paste it:
"
The second flight of St Emilions represented another triumph for modernism as far as my scores were concerned. I had never tasting the 1998 vintage of the controversial new manifestation of Ch Pavie, whose 2003 I liked so little (while America’s leading wine critic Robert Parker liked it so much) that this disagreement, rather absurdly, became a cause célèbre.
"
It sounds like to me your facts are mixed up..I'm not saying your feeling about her is mixed up or even your interpretation of what she says is mixed up...I'm saying what you're stating as facts is..this is like the whole China thing again with your facts not being correct...I'm not talking about an opinion..I'm just talking about what you're saying as fact...like she blasted the 98 Pavie before the 2003.

Click on the link, she's quite positive about most of the Bordeaux there..which obviously means she doesn't think they're all crap...maybe she crapped on some and you're interpreting it as that..or she crapped on ones you really liked which leads you to believe she's crapping on all of them...but really, so much information contradicts that....Again, I don't doubt that is what you believe and your opinion is your opinion..I think the issue is you then back your opinion with what looks like factually incorrect information and I'm just stating, some of the things you're saying appears to be factually wrong...again, if you have other sources I can certainly believe JR is capable of incorrectly stating something...

[felixp]

I am no longer a purple pager, as discussed, but if someone is, please confirm she rated the wine en primeur, as I am absolutely sure she attended the 99 EP tastings in Bordeaux, and certainly would not have missed a wine as high in the tree as Pavie. And she certainly did not like it!!! I remember it so well, as I purchased a case of 98 EP in Australia(i.e. $$$$$$$$$), and was most perturbed when I read her comments.

She doesn't think all bordeaux is crap, but her scores are typically low for the region in comparison to other top-tier critics with the usual exceptions, and, as a very frequent and I guess experienced Bordeaux drinker, I simply do not agree with much she has written over the past few years, where her views are greatly varied to those she held, say, fifteen years ago. She ain't the first, we have had a similar discussion about James Halliday, as I recall

One of my sons confirmed my suspicion that I do indeed have a couple of bottles of Kumeu River chardie in the cellar, and I absolutely look forward to cracking a bottle, perhaps next to a Boillot CC 04, when I get back to Oz in July. Should be interesting!!!! He also discovered a case of Escarpment pinot I forgot I had, so maybe we will have our own Unzud v Burgundy night!!!

[sjw_11]

I remember it so well, as I purchased a case of 98 EP in Australia(i.e. $$$$$$$$$)

We get it Felix, your loaded... I am not sure why you need to keep making the point so often about how many cases of ultra expensive wine you buy to support your arguments but hey, different strokes...

[felixp]

no, actually, all I meant was that I had spent a lot of money (and no, I am not loaded, and the "ultra expensive" wines you talk about are not expensive where I now buy them, in HK, which was another reason I mentioned I purchased it in Australia) and since I had spent a lot of money on a wine I had not tasted (it being en primeur) I was pretty surprised when HRH made her judgement. The fact that I did have a large spend (for me, that is, others may spend far more) is why it absolutely sticks in my memory.
Since then, I have consumed about half the case, and none of the bottles tasted have been anything like she described.

As for ultra-expensive wines, I simply don't buy them ,and wouldn't even if I had an extra 20 million!!! Would never even consider buying Grange, Rousseau and the like now... whilst I have a fair bit of both, they were purchased when they were a fraction of current cost. In my book, "ultra-expensive" wines are stuff like Le Pin, La Mission and Haut Brion Blanc, DRC, Cros Parantoux, La Romanee etc etc... these can cost many thousands a bottle and are a ridiculous waste of money, unless you are a billionaire who simply couldn't care less. My most expensive purchases are all sub $400, and would hardly be considered "ultra-expensive" in the modern wine world. Here in HK, if you buy smart or buy en primeur in the case of Bordeaux, you can acquire wonderful wines at prices that seem absurdly low in Australia, so if you see me talking about wines such as Conseillante, a superb right-bank Bordeaux, it costs the same, or maybe just a little more than 407 or St Henri.

If you wish the forum to simply discuss Mike Press Shiraz or Koonunga Hill, then please tell me and I will happily stop posting tasting notes etc!!!!!!!

[redwhiteandrose]

Sam,

That was rather unfair. Why pick on Felix? He's not the only big spender on this board.

Lord of the flies?

[Polymer]

I am no longer a purple pager, as discussed, but if someone is, please confirm she rated the wine en primeur, as I am absolutely sure she attended the 99 EP tastings in Bordeaux, and certainly would not have missed a wine as high in the tree as Pavie. And she certainly did not like it!!! I remember it so well, as I purchased a case of 98 EP in Australia(i.e. $$$$$$$$$), and was most perturbed when I read her comments.

I'm sure you remember it that way..and it could be that was the case...but I'm not finding anything that suggests this was the case...the 2003 incident is pretty well known...

She doesn't think all bordeaux is crap, but her scores are typically low for the region in comparison to other top-tier critics with the usual exceptions, and, as a very frequent and I guess experienced Bordeaux drinker, I simply do not agree with much she has written over the past few years, where her views are greatly varied to those she held, say, fifteen years ago.

Scoring lower doesn't mean anything (and she uses a 20 point scale which is currently a bit "odd" and hard to compare) though..especially when you're comparing it to others....For example even for two people with the exact same palate, one might score a wine 95 while another 90 because that is just their scale...but I do understand what you're trying to say. I do think Pavie is a bad example to use though because of the very modern style. Even from many that love Bordeaux, some just don't like it at all...I don't mind if her palate has changed.. (Mine has, why should I hold that against someone)...I'm not quite sure I get that from JR although it isn't like I'm an avid reader...I also never got the impression she is biased against the old world or biased for the new world..Based on what I've seen and the comments on the Pavie, she appears to be pretty anti very ripe fruit...which generally puts someone palate in the more old world camp...

[felixp]

I agree that the 20 point scale is a mystery to me, and many others. Logic would suggest you just need to multiply by 5 to get the 100 point equivalent, but this clearly is not the case. Actually, I find the continued use of the 20 point scale rather curious, I would guess the vast majority of wine lovers would prefer a universal 100 point score, but thats the Brits for you, still on stones, pounds, feet, miles and miles per hour!!!!!! God only knows why!!!!

[redwhiteandrose]

As I've said, I like Jancis, but she does tend to give 16.5 +/- 1pt. I've seen both very cheap, commercial wines and rather good, expensive wines getting 16.5. Maybe it means decent for its level?

I sense her scores relate to (on an International scale, but not Halliday - add 2pts, nor Burghound - subtract 2pt):
17.5 or more: Outstanding (93?)
17: Very Good (93?)
16.5: Good (91?)
16: OK (90?)
15.5 or below: not very good (89?)

Very subjective. I'm sure plenty will disagree

Felix,

I think you'll find the British have slowly been transitioning to metric over the years. It's the Americans that are stuck in Imperialism.

[TiggerK]

2010 Kumeu river hunting hill Chardonnay

I'll probably decant the next one. Would happily avoid it for a few years as it will improve, but i'd be surprised if it survives until July.

2010 kumeu river hunting hill chardonnay

And as much as you're enjoying it, you know deep in your heart that you'd prefer to be drinking a Leflaive Puligny Montrachet 2010, don't you?

Hehe just saw this in the 'what are you drinking thread' guys. You know I've been sticking up for the Kumeu on various forae.... hey sucker for punishment, let me continue...

That Leflaive may indeed be a better wine for 'drinking' (although vintage aside, this particular MW filled tasting panel didn't think so), but at around five times the price, plus the premox and cork risks, I know what I much rather be 'buying and drinking'. I'm constantly amazed at the bias shown towards white burgundy that is for me so rarely justified in terms of value, consistency and ( ) yes, taste. I admit good examples will indeed be the best in the world, no argument there, but the true test comes with their ageability and I'm not seeing a lot of widespread confidence in that (although Leflaive do seem one of the better producers in avoiding prem-ox).

Anyway, I keep asking myself what is the point I'm trying to make? I think it's that blind tastings can eliminate a lot of region and label bias and make people focus on what they actually enjoy, rather than what they are expected to enjoy.

I know, it's a silly debate, we can enjoy all regions, and I certainly do! The Giaconda Chardonnay 2013 I had last week was easily as good as most Kumeu's and most white burg's. It's a good time to be a chardonnay lover!

BTW, hey Mick looks like your July estimate is on track at this rate!

[Michael R]

Tim, I agree with you almost entirely.
Love blind tastings, always enjoy them and regularly humbled by them.

I know we've shared plenty of good white burgs, and I know, like you, I've been disappointed by plenty too...but it remains probably my favourite wine because of the peaks I suppose.
Lots of reasons for others to feel differently, pricing, premox etc. I'm not trying to convince anyone.

Actually maybe I am a little, if I think back to wines I bring to our dinners. They're also examples of my views.
For example, last year 11 PYCM Corton, 10 Jadot Les demoiselles and 11 DRC Monty (split between a few of the crew) would have been v high on my WOTY scale. A few good Ramonets thrown in too. Not to mention the unforgettable treat to try the Coche Corton thanks to Len.
On the flip side, I've definitely been underwhelmed by some of the big shots, a 11 PYCM Chevy was just to young I suppose, but given how well the Corton drank and at half its price, I was a little flat afterwards. Unfairly perhaps, I also tend to open before 6 yrs old to minimise premox.
So yes, white burg is a crap shoot, but I love it despite many defeats.
I know you're plotting a blind tasting soon. I'm really looking forward to it as I know Chardonnay will be the biggest challenge. I could care less if I get the options wrong as I know all the wines will be fantastic.

Felix made a point earlier about Chardonnay being Australia's best grape along with Shiraz. I felt like that for years now.
In fact I'd rate it above Shiraz but that's probably bias driven.
As you know I drink loads of Oz Chard, love so many producers. I wouldn't be surprised to be humbled at more blind tastings in future, but genuinely I've never had an Oz Chardy that moved me like that PYCM Corton for example.
Drinking loads of Xanadu vintages recently, great value IMO, all the way to Giaconda and penfolds at the top end.
While I'm rambling, Ive also thought Pennies fails to get the credit it deserves. Maybe because they are who they are. But The BinA and Yattarna are world class.

[dingozegan]

Kumeu is worth defending - as I said, I'm a big fan. I was just surprised by the tasting panel result. (In retrospect though, I do think Kumeu Chardonnays might tend to show better in a sip-and-spit tasting rather than a drinking context than good examples from producers like Sauzet, Leflaive, Niellon, JN Gagnard or Carillon.)

I certainly agree about label bias, QPR, and the risks around cork closures and premox.

There's plenty of inconsistency and poor quality in white Burgundy (and far more so than there is with Kiwi or Aussie Chardonnay). I'd echo that saying about Burgundian wines being a kind of Holy Grail: they can provide frequent disappointment and failure, but the rare reward is considered by many to be the epitome. For some, that makes the journey worthwhile. It used to be for me, though admittedly, that's not necessarily the case at today's international prices (let alone Aussie prices), so I'm totally with you there, Tim. Nevertheless, I still consider the heights of white Burgundy the greatest Chardonnay (and among some of the greatest wines) in the world, because of those rare examples that seem the epitome to me.

[felixp]

I thoroughly agree Unzed chardies are excellent, but for my taste, the best of the Aussie stuff has gone past them in the past decade.
I firmly believe that current premium Aussie Chard is a little like our shiraz of 20 years ago, quite undervalued as it is not widely known in the world marketplace. IMO, both LEAS and Gioconda are still decent value at 50% more than their current price, and both are superb wines when you drink them (in Australia) in competition with equally-priced white Burgundy. A little harder overseas where the price of French wines is more sensible.
Nevertheless, given none of the Burgs were premoxed, (which I agree is a huge negative) and given several were nowhere near the price bracket of the Kumeu, the lopsided result came as a big surprise, even for a White Burgundy drinker but Aussie Chardonnay lover like me.
Not sure the MW experience is such a big deal, I wonder if you sat 8 ordinary Joes like me around the table you would get the same result. After all, the MW's over there are exposed to Old World Grand Cru on a daily basis, to the point of becoming stale with the style and structure, and therefore something they do not see any where near as regularly would be a treat for them, I guess.

[maybs]

I think there is plenty of merit both ways. On a value basis I can't see how kumeu can't win the argument. But we all know the law of diminishing returns in wine etc and the fact is we all want to try that wine that is 25% or 50% or 100% 'better', more complete, even though the dollars don't make sense. Let's face it, there is plenty about wine that does not make sense.

Some of you will have seen what I said about the Giaconda from magnum at the grange dinner I organised. From memory that wine cost me about 6 or 7 times what I got the 2010 Kumeu's single vineyards for. Obviously it is not 600% as good a wine. But I would rather own 1 bottle of that than 12 of the Kumeu's. Why? The Kumeu's are excellent wines and I really, really enjoy drinking them. But good wine, even very good wine, is readily obtainable. Exceptional, perspective changing wine is in a different league. So it just makes you want to chase it disproportionate to the cost. Because sometimes you can't put a cost on the experience of trying those amazing bottles.

I'd be interested in some blind tasting results from forum members. Serious food for thought.

[felixp]

FWIW I have experienced many blind tastings, including Chardonnay, and both myself and the group usually have little trouble in differentiating Old World from New World, particularly with Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. Dry Riesling, surprisingly, and Cabernet, particularly from top end California, can present a much greater problem.

Never had too much of a problem with shiraz or grenache.

It is not all that uncommon for a "new world" wine to perform admirably against excellent, and usually more expensive, old world opposition, but I have never been involved in a blind tasting, of any grape variety, when a relatively cheap, new world wine, has blown away a host of excellent and expensive old world competitors. Despite my personal experience, I continue to read stories like this one, so I guess my results are a little "skewed" thru serendipity.

I recall a Melbourne retailer White Burg wine tasting about 7-8 years ago where they threw in a Giaconda 2002 against about 6 or 7 premier crus. It honestly wasn't hard to pick the Aussie wine, but it was excellent none the less, and finished in the top three in the voting, as I recall, against far more expensive wines. (but it was blown away by the 2002 PYCM Perrieres, which was head and shoulders above the rest of the field). From memory, this was the best "new world" result I can remember in such a new v old world tasting. I had the Giaconda second, several of the other Burgundies were more than double it's price.

[TiggerK]

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/top-kiwi-v-white-burgundy

I'm a huge Kumeu supporter, but did accept a comment from a good friend when he said "sounds like Kumeu won by default'.... not taking too much away from KR, but he did have a point based on both my experience with white burg variability and the consistency of Kumeu.

Oh and FWIW, I did a blind tasting of a KR and a 1er P-M the other night for a few friends, both young but very good, mixed opinions but fair to say the table was split evenly.

[redwhiteandrose]

And there you have it. How to fix a blind tasting. Well, maybe. I can't be sure, but surely the wines you put in should be reasonable examples of their kind? And reading JR's article, many of the wines were clearly faulty. And that won't make the headlines will it?

But, some apparently weren't faulty and the KRs mostly beat them, too. Well done. And they were "better made and more refined and sophisticated." Well, that just goes to show that the team at KR do a very good job. Producer, producer, producer.

But as they "all guessed Kumeus pretty correctly", they are obviously never going to replace white Burgundy any time soon.....

But we all knew that already, right?

[felixp]

those of you who are Wine Advocate subscribers, Neal Martin has just added the write up of this tasting to the web site. Interesting.

[redwhiteandrose]

FelixP, Any chance of a knock off, counterfeit version of that article. Even just a paragraph or two?