Kumeu River vs White Burgundy

[TiggerK]

Impressive tasting panel, all served blind. Victory for Down Under. This is why I'm often pained at the 'status' given to mostly overpriced white burgundy where the new world examples, while being respected, are somehow often looked down upon compared to their French counterparts.

Although I think it's fair to say that most red examples might not fare quite as well in a similar situation, with a few notable exceptions of course.

http://www.farrvintners.com/blog.php

[Hacker]

Thanks Tim, a great victory for NZ! Are there any other NZ chardonnays that also may have delivered a similar result to Kumeu River? Or are they head and shoulders above the rest?

[maybs]

Wow. Impressive. Just goes to show all those critics who say it is a very Burgundian style are right...it's more Burgundian than burgundy!

Whatever you think about how it compares with the French stuff, it is great wine at (I think) very good prices

[TiggerK]

Thanks Tim, a great victory for NZ! Are there any other NZ chardonnays that also may have delivered a similar result to Kumeu River? Or are they head and shoulders above the rest?

I can't think of any. Possibly Bell Hill, but they only do one wine and in miniscule numbers. Pyramid Valley may prove worthy with some more bottle age, but none can come close to matching Kumeu River for consistency and quality across the price range year after year. Good on them, just hope they don't put the prices up too much now!

[catchnrelease]

Impressive, very impressive!

[michel]

Why?

This Old World vs New World is a pointless exercise - we need to grow up and respect individual sites of World Wine.

[TiggerK]

Why?

This Old World vs New World is a pointless exercise - we need to grow up and respect individual sites of World Wine.

I agree. But there will always be a status/price bias towards certain regions or vineyards yet the beauty of wine is that each will have different opinions as to what is best. For every DRC worshipper, there's a Bin 707 or Lafite lover. And plenty who would much prefer a Mollydooker shake over a Pegau or Rioja. A truism to be sure, but the New World would generally be considered underdogs in a who's who of world wine and it's blind tastings like these that are the ultimate levellers. We all love it when the underdog wins!

Again stating the obvious but the New World has a few hundred years of winemaking history to compete with, the status of a site arises with time plus the site has often been secondary to the brand and the grape in New World labelling. Going to be fascinating watching the changes of NW vs OW comparisons and opinions over the next few decades. I wonder if we might even see less focus on the labelling of the grape variety for NW wines, perhaps that's already slowly starting to happen?

Anyway, just rambling.. carry on.

[redwhiteandrose]

Michel,

Sorry, but I beg to differ....

The panel are Old World wine lovers. They judged all the wines as such and preferred the Kumeu.

If Grand Cru>1er Cru>Village then surely other wine can fit somewhere in this continuum.

I don't buy the the French's belief the they own most of the 'terroir', and the New World can't compete. That might sound preposterous, but I've heard plenty of Frenchmen express this pov.

So, on the face of it, Kumeu beat the French at their own game.

Now, do I believe these tastings can be rigged? You betcha!

[Rory]

Could well have been a win for screwcap also.

[JamieBahrain]

Why?

This Old World vs New World is a pointless exercise - we need to grow up and respect individual sites of World Wine.

Not really. Burgundy should be on notice. Prem-ox and white burgundy is a disgrace and only the Burgundians would have the arrogance to not address the issue with any conviction. It seems accepted in fine wine circles that you need to buy 1.3 to 1.4 bottles of white burgundy to get an acceptable bottle.

I'm not sure of the motivation of the tasting by Farr,but a clean New World producer using screw cap with wines ( well certainly in regard to Mates ) with a bit of magic, certainly seems to be a swipe at Burgundy.

On KR, on think Mates is world class and I'd drink it with a few years age in preference to white burgundy in a similar price range. The other bottlings are pretty honest but can have a Mâconnais boringness.

[dingozegan]

I am quite surprised by the results.

The Matés has continued to be one of my favourite (if not my absolute favourite) Antipodean Chardonnays for the last five years, and it is certainly Burgundian in style (in terms of fruit profile, reduction, oak usage and balance) but I do not consider it or other the Kumeu River Chardonnays superior to a number of the white Burgundy's in that tasting lineup (to some, yes, but others no).

For example, on the first flight, I drank the 2012 Matés and the 2012 Sauzet PM earlier this year (admittedly not side by side) and would say the Sauzet has, for me, unquestionably more complexity and interest, and better oak integation and overall balance than the Matés.

I would love to see a breakdown of the individual judges' scores. Conglomerate scores from a tasting panel don't always mean much.

[redwhiteandrose]

'I would love to see a breakdown of the individual judges' scores. Conglomerate scores from a tasting panel don't always mean much.User avatar' dingozegan

Good point. It could be that it was the least disliked. But a high score is a high score.

Anybody know how to rig a blind tasting?

[Michael R]

All this talk has gotten me reaching for one tonight.
Alas not Chambertin Michel...but the 12 KR Mates. Will pop in the decanter and keep you posted.

Happy KR day to you all

[redwhiteandrose]

Happy Kumeu River Day!*

*Silly marketing scheme from those crazy kiwis!

[JamieBahrain]

These wines year in, year out end up heavily discounted in European sales. Probably 60% cheaper than in NZ ! So perhaps they need the marketing.

[Michael R]

Mates showing quite a bit of matchstick on the nose.
Not much fruit showing, bit of lemon, more toffee, butterscotch notes, and noticeable oak drying the finish.
Acid is quite tangy. A young wine by no means meant to be drunk young but giving me plenty of enjoyment.

this isn't Puligny. Not even close. This is really good quality wine from NZ, i like it and will continue buying these wines with confidence.

I'd also second Tims comments on other NZ Chardys, I do like Moutere with some age but it Kumeu or bust for me.
I did persist with the Felton Road offering for quite a while, mostly average and totally overpriced IMO.

[redwhiteandrose]

Loads of good Aussie chardonnays from Margaret River, Yarra, Mornington, Gippsland, Macedon, Geelong, Beechworth, Tasmania, etc.

How does Kumeu stack up against these for you?

[felixp]

Bit of a surprising result, not that the "Old World" Burgundian wines should be so far ahead, but that NZ chardonnays actually were preferred to them. IMO, over the past decade, NZ chards have made some, if only little, progress, whereas Aus Chards have really zoomed ahead, more than any other grape variety in Australia. For me, both Giaconda and Leeuwin Estate are miles better than anything from NZ year in and out, certainly not the case 15 years ago. Many superb Margaret river Chardonnays in addition, I especially like what Voyager has been doing lately. If the two Aussie icons had been used, I might have expected a little bit of an upset, but not to the extent of the NZ white-wash.

amazed they preferred the Unzud wine to the 2007 LeFlaive, I have cellared and adore that wine, which will be monumental in another decade. Still, who knows what little subliminal message the label and the price are sending to my brain, so it would be most unfair to criticise this tasting as I have not seen the wines blind!!!!!

I was comforted somewhat by the fact that one of the tasters was her royal highness, she would have known 100% which wine in the bracket was NZ, and would have given it top marks 100% of the time. Unlike an old soldier, age certainly hath wearied her. If its not riesling, or new world,she don't like it!!!!!
Anyone else mystified why TWA has given both Bordeaux and Burgundy to Neal Martin?? He clearly is a talent with Bordeaux, a rare talent indeed, but many of his Burgundy calls I find quite unusual, and certainly not often aligned to what I have experienced with a particular wine. I guess that magazine doesn't really care about Burgundy anymore, AM seems to have cornered that internet market. Now that RPJ has gone, TWA is losing subscribers almost as fast as Fairfax media

[redwhiteandrose]

FelixP,

Yes, [for what it's worth] at least according to cellartracker, many top Aussie chardonnays are clearly better than KR.

Not sure if I'd agree with you about JR. I know she isn't a fan of the big Right Bank Bordeaux you like!

[TiggerK]

I think there is a lot of bias towards white Burgundy that influences opinion, and obviously bottle variation, label and price influence and of course the tasting environment are huge factors. Without tasting these wines double blind in the same context, around the same age, same glassware, temp etc, it's always going to be difficult to compare them without any such bias. And even if the tasters could identify what wines were the Kumeu (and we shouldn't assume they did in all cases) they would have judged what they thought were the more interesting, complex, nuanced, balanced wines. Did they know a Kumeu was in the lineup I wonder? I assume because it was hosted by Farr Vintners they would have assumed something similar if they weren't told.

I know there's a lot of great white wine in Burgundy, and I've enjoyed a fair few (mostly thanks to generous friends, inc MickR!), but there's a ton of 1er and GC duds too. I've had too many overpriced French disappointments to be excited by the region as a whole, although most are drunk way too young, certainly many do have great potential. The only really great ones I've had have been aged, and with cork risk and premox that's mostly out of the question these days without a very deep wallet.

And I have to say.. saying 'better wines according to CT' doesn't really mean much redwhiteandrose.... Of course 'better' is a silly term anyway, and there is so much variety in Chardonnay styles now, there's something darned good from most wine producing countries to keep anyone happy!!

Best aussies for me, although none have the consistency of Kumeu and are mostly twice the price.... Giaconda, Leuuwin Art Series, Yattarna/Bin XXa, Cullen Kevin John.

[redwhiteandrose]

TiggerK. You misread my intention. Sorry if i was sloppy with my words. 'According to' wasn't meant to imply agreement with. And I thought I'd added the expression 'for what it's worth' (where did that go?!) to the start of that sentence, as it's all conjecture and opinion. There can never be objective truth when it comes to wine. Although many tasting notes will infer it...

[dingozegan]

Bit of a surprising result, not that the "Old World" Burgundian wines should be so far ahead, but that NZ chardonnays actually were preferred to them.

That's what surprised me too, but perhaps it actually does make sense, because IMO the panel aren't anywhere near as pro-Old World as some here suggest. I wouldn't go as far as you, Felix, in saying of Jancis Robinson that "If its not riesling, or new world,she don't like it!!!!!", but I would say she is positive towards New World wines and styles in general, and she is a fan of Kumeu. I would say that Jamie Goode is quite pro-New World - actually, I would not call his palate Old World orientated by any means.

Anyone else mystified why TWA has given both Bordeaux and Burgundy to Neal Martin?? He clearly is a talent with Bordeaux, a rare talent indeed, but many of his Burgundy calls I find quite unusual

I am, and a some people have always seemed to find his calls on Burgundy unusual (I am especially thinking of back in the early days of Wine Journal), but perhaps that's more likely (inevitable?) to hapeen with Burgundy anyway(?).

Nice thread, BTW Tim!

[Michael R]

Left half of the Mates bottle for tonight.
It's drinkly really nicely now. Very smooth. Probably not exceptional depth or complexity, but a delicious wine that's improved since yesterday. Great value too.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I don't buy the the French's belief the they own most of the 'terroir', and the New World can't compete. That might sound preposterous, but I've heard plenty of Frenchmen express this........

I don't think the French believe they "own most of the terroir", rather that they prefer to make wine that reflects their terroir. By definition terroir exists everywhere. They feel, and for a time they were right, that many new world wines were artificial constructs that blurred the lines of regionality rather than reflect the terroir of their region. Initially Australian winemakers almost instinctively recoiled at the idea that they couldn't make Bordeaux or Rhone but, over time, started to come around to the idea of regionality and terroir as exemplified by the dispute a number of years ago over who was entitled, based on soil and climate, to the Coonnawarra designation.

So sure, the French own all the Burgundy terroir, as they do all the Chateauneuf terroir, etc., etc. But on the other hand Australians own all the Hunter Valley and Clare Valley terroir. But it must be said that there are French wineries that are also trying their hand at international styled wines that deny their terrior. For example I recall the furor that erupted when Jancis Robinson decried the '03 Chateau Pavie calling it a "ridiculous" wine. She said port was best from the Duoro not St Emilion and that the Pavie was more like a late-harvest Zinfandel. Naturally Parker and his sycophants were apoplectic as this might "devalue" his high 90s score.

I was comforted somewhat by the fact that one of the tasters was her royal highness [Jancis Robinson], she would have known 100% which wine in the bracket was NZ, and would have given it top marks 100% of the time. Unlike an old soldier, age certainly hath wearied her. If its not riesling, or new world,she don't like it!!!!!

I'm not sure where this comes from. From what I've read over the years, including watching her BBC series on wine, nothing remotely suggests that this is her view.

For my own part I've never had the opportunity to drink a Kumeu River but a Sacred Hill 'Riflemans' Chardonnay a few years ago was a standout.

Cheers..................Mahmoud.

[felixp]

Mahmoud, that BBC series, which I loved, is diametrically opposed to her views now. If you have any doubt, subscribe to her purple pages and read her comments both in articles and in the forum. Absolutely no doubt something has happened between her and the French, I have no idea what. To support this, virtually all of the major Brit wine merchants have stopped using her, which in itself is amazing as she was considered their absolute darling 15 years ago.

[felixp]

oh, and she called the Pavie 1998 a ridiculous wine five years before her call on the 2003.
you might recall that Berry Bros served her the 03 Pavie blind in about 2012, where she called it a top-end Cali Cab from a great vintage hehehe
even in the TV series, she spent a whole episode trying to trick Olivier Leflaive (or Lafon, I cannot recall which one) with a bottle of Jacob's creek chardie, which certainly left me scratching my head at the time, but in retrospect was a portent of things to come.

[redwhiteandrose]

Felix, I'm sure you've got plenty of anecdotes about JR, I don't subscribe to her purple pages. I do like her, so I'll try to defend her.

There are numerous times recently when she has published articles where she has praised, for example, the Rhone Valley, said Bordeaux is one of the best value wine regions in the world (when discussing Cru Bourgeois), she love Languedoc/Roussillon (she has a home there!), she says the 2 most underrated wines in the world are Beaujolais and Muscadet,and I'm pretty sure she still loves Burgundy (who doesn't apart from the hapless Mr Leve) and Alsace (Jura, etc, as well.)

I've read her FT column for the last few years and don't think she prefers New World wines. She thinks South African wine is underrated, but she has made some ignorant/cliched comments on Australian wines recently.

She certainly prefers fresher wines over big wines, but I think that's the trend almost everywhere.

For me, her biggest weakness is that she seems to rates most wines between 16 or 16.5 or thereabouts. Pretty useless for marketers. Not a big issue for me, though.... James Suckling seems to be the generous critic these days (the International James Halliday, some may say! Lots of 98s from him these days)

[Polymer]

oh, and she called the Pavie 1998 a ridiculous wine five years before her call on the 2003.
you might recall that Berry Bros served her the 03 Pavie blind in about 2012, where she called it a top-end Cali Cab from a great vintage hehehe
even in the TV series, she spent a whole episode trying to trick Olivier Leflaive (or Lafon, I cannot recall which one) with a bottle of Jacob's creek chardie, which certainly left me scratching my head at the time, but in retrospect was a portent of things to come.

Sources?

I remember reading some of what you're talking about but I think some of your information is mixed up...but either way, I think it would be an interesting read which is why I'm asking...

[Hacker]

I remember at a couple of Sydney offlines - at Cafe Lyon (Mates '08) and Fix St James (Mates '06) the Kumeu both times tasted similar to a top Margaret River, like Pierro or LEAS. Is that how you guys would see the taste profile?

[felixp]

Hi Polymer,
the BBC series was about 1996 (?), I am sure if you google or you-tube it you will find it. It was actually a really good series, even if some of the stories were a little ridiculous (like the one where she says people drove up to Guigal in their Ferrari's and asked to swap their car for LaLa )
Redwhiteandrose,
I was a purple-pager for about 10 years, actually only stopped this year... had enough of the fruit-cakes on the forum, and the rather strange, and more frequent, ramblings by HRH of how poorly made a lot of classified growth Bordeaux has become.... of course, she is entitled to her opinion, and I am entitled to stop subscribing
The last straw, mentioned on another web-site by me, was her tirade at how bad the 2010 Le Gay was (after initially giving it an okay score) in one of the forum threads.... I scratched my head, and opened a bottle a week later with a group of experienced Bordeaux drinkers. We then opened a second, to be sure. (I have a large stock of this hehe). There could be no doubt that the wine we were drinking bore absolutely no resemblance to the one she described as the oak monster.
I have followed HRH closely for two decades, there is no doubt whatsoever that there has been a seismic shift in her philosophies and attitudes in the wine world. WHICH, OF COURSE, is OK, but as I said it gives me a little comfort on the results of this tasting.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love antipodean chardonnays, and I actually think Australian chardonnay at the top of the tree is now the equal of our shiraz in terms of quality, but to see such a one-sided result would in no way reflect my experience or views on the relative merits of AUS/NZ chardonnay versus high quality white Burgundy.