Cellar Build in Established House

[sjw_11]

Awesome... Awesome to the max.

[rens]

Looks great Scotty. Any chance of a photo from the base of the stairs looking in?

[Scotty vino]

Looks great Scotty. Any chance of a photo from the base of the stairs looking in?

[michel]

Awesome... Awesome to the max.

+1

comes with interior decorating

[rens]

Looks great Scotty. Any chance of a photo from the base of the stairs looking in?

Looking good. Thanks. Be interesting to know what the temperature variation is in there.

[Scotty vino]

Looks great Scotty. Any chance of a photo from the base of the stairs looking in?

Looking good. Thanks. Be interesting to know what the temperature variation is in there.

i grabbed a little wireless temp gauge unit and it's been down there for a couple of days.
It has sat between 18 and 18.5 at all times of the day. It was 33 in Adelaide today but I'll be interested to
see how it copes with a week of 40+. Last week I heard a cellar horror story here in Adelaide when a cooling/humidifier went on the blink.
Apparently the temperature soared and cooked the entire collection which was well into 6 figures in terms of value.
First hand account as my mate was doing some building work on the place.
SO here's hoping my cellar can perform passively otherwise that could be an issue.
Wait and see I guess.

[Chuck]

From the photos the interior is very similar to mine with the mortar falling out and the white paint-like covering still evident in sections. I hope it is a dry cellar as some in Adelaide are known for filling with water during winter. Are there any signs of water?

Carl

[Scotty vino]

From the photos the interior is very similar to mine with the mortar falling out and the white paint-like covering still evident in sections. I hope it is a dry cellar as some in Adelaide are known for filling with water during winter. Are there any signs of water?

Carl

there's definitely some humidity down there but no signs of water damage.
It's actually in quite good knick all things considered.
I've got a bore in my backyard which goes down 10 metres so I'm assuming the water table is quite low thru my area.

[Chuck]

Sounds good.

What sort of racking are you installing? Any progress? Any recent pics?

Carl

[Scotty vino]

Ive had some custom metal racks designed/priced up but I've had to rethink them all as they fit won't down the stairs.
In moment of logistical common sense i made a mock up of one of the racks out of cardboard and ply and
no matter which i way manoeuvred it I couldn't get it to fit.
SO, i'll be going back to the company I've been speaking with and have to come up with a new design.
I had considered making some timber racks myself but I think the safety of the pro made steel racks will be the way to go.
The sheer weight of 150+ bottles is something I need to seriously consider in terms of safety and engineering.
The initial design was for 15 x 12 bottle rack (180) which I'm still hoping to go with. May just have to be put together in sections.
Currently I'm repointing the brick work. Not too bad, more of a light patch up as the walls/bricks are in good shape.
I've also emptied out the old access to the outside. Not sure what to do with this. Maybe some shelving or a rack.
Cleared out all the loose rubbish. All that remains are massive blue stone chunks from the old footings and some concrete.

[Chuck]

I had similar access problem with the shelving but overcame this with modular plastic coated steel that easily takes the weight. Each section (many to choice from to fit the available space) could be taken down separately. They are bolted to the wall for extra strength and were very reasonably priced. 20 years later they work perfectly. Somewhere in Magill I think.

Carl

[Scotty vino]

I had similar access problem with the shelving but overcame this with modular plastic coated steel that easily takes the weight. Each section (many to choice from to fit the available space) could be taken down separately. They are bolted to the wall for extra strength and were very reasonably priced. 20 years later they work perfectly. Somewhere in Magill I think.

Carl

I basically just cut my mock up rack down to a size that would fit and I'll just go with that for now.
I think rather than one massive rack i'll go two separate racks on adjacent walls.
Start with one perhaps, see how that pans out, then get another one later on.
I wanna maximize capacity but still be able to have a little tasting table and an area to open bottles etc etc.
Got a full size chateau Tanunda barrel coming my way but it may too big.
any tips from cellar owners out there??

[Scotty vino]

So i've finished the repointing. Probably not a super A grade finish but good enough considering the
condition of the old mortar. Can't think of a better way to spend an evening then sitting on a concrete
floor elbow deep in plaster. For those DYI people out there I did a lime based mix so there's a bit of flex
in the mortar rather than the straight crete and sand.
Also surfaced every hour or so and sipped on my 2011 Olivers Taranga small batch grenache.
Started opening up beautifully with some nice hints of spice and confection.
Some fairly strong mouth contorting tannins up front but these backed off over a few hours with time in the glass.

[Scotty vino]

bit of an update.
Slow going this time of year. getting an hour or two for 'cellar time' is always a slight challenge.
Basically ready to brick up the shelf at the front so i can back fill it with a layer of Road base and Concrete.
Need a nice flat solid level base before installing the rack. I've gone for a 108 rack to start with.
Simply because it's the biggest one I can fit thru the opening/doorway. I'm not sure where to put the second rack
and until I decide I'll be sticking with the one for now. I have a wooden 40 bottle rack and wrought iron/bar style rack that holds 15
to go in also. I plan to put a small port barrel on the ledge too.
AT the moment I'm running a pedestal fan 30min on/30min off with a timer. Still some dampness down there.
Sitting aorund 18.5 / 19.0 degrees at all times. Funnily enough when the fan comes on the temp goes up 0.5.
This has turned into a giant Lego set. I've got all the parts and I know what I want to do.
Just gotta find the time! Got a few spare days coming up over the break so I'm hoping to rip into it.

[michel]

bit of an update.
Slow going this time of year. getting an hour or two for 'cellar time' is always a slight challenge.
Basically ready to brick up the shelf at the front so i can back fill it with a layer of Road base and Concrete.
Need a nice flat solid level base before installing the rack. I've gone for a 108 rack to start with.
Simply because it's the biggest one I can fit thru the opening/doorway. I'm not sure where to put the second rack
and until I decide I'll be sticking with the one for now. I have a wooden 40 bottle rack and wrought iron/bar style rack that holds 15
to go in also. I plan to put a small port barrel on the ledge too.
AT the moment I'm running a pedestal fan 30min on/30min off with a timer. Still some dampness down there.
Sitting aorund 18.5 / 19.0 degrees at all times. Funnily enough when the fan comes on the temp goes up 0.5.
This has turned into a giant Lego set. I've got all the parts and I know what I want to do.
Just gotta find the time! Got a few spare days coming up over the break so I'm hoping to rip into it.

looks brilliant

[Bobthebuilder]

Hey Scotty, have you got some moisture readings to see if the fan is having any effect?
I'm thinking it's likely it's just moving the air around and not removing the humidity too much, just from experience in dealing with damp sub floors for framing preservation purposes (nothing to do with wine storage)
What I would do is get hold of an inline fan from an electrical supplier and some Flexi duct to fit. Then hook up equal lengths to either end of the fan (they work best when the fan is in the middle of the duct run) and have one end pushed up against a vent to the outside (if possible) and the other end sucking lying on the floor in the middle of your wine store area.
That way you will remove the moist air instead of just circulating it in the area.

[Scotty vino]

Hey Scotty, have you got some moisture readings to see if the fan is having any effect?
I'm thinking it's likely it's just moving the air around and not removing the humidity too much, just from experience in dealing with damp sub floors for framing preservation purposes (nothing to do with wine storage)
What I would do is get hold of an inline fan from an electrical supplier and some Flexi duct to fit. Then hook up equal lengths to either end of the fan (they work best when the fan is in the middle of the duct run) and have one end pushed up against a vent to the outside (if possible) and the other end sucking lying on the floor in the middle of your wine store area.
That way you will remove the moist air instead of just circulating it in the area.

Thanks for the advice.
I was in casual conversation with my Dad on this subject and it so happens he has a 200mm inline fan with ducting.
So i'm gonna grab that off of him and set something up as you've suggested.
I think some form of extraction will do it wonders.
There's a decent vent to the outside wall about 3 metres away so I should be able to
position the inline fan adjacent to the cellar on/in the subfloor area and run the ducting either side.
I know humidity around 50-70% is good (for cork at least) but I'd hazard a guess I'm more in the 80% - 90%+ zone.

[Bobthebuilder]

Try and exhaust out on the sunny side if possible so it's drawing air in from the cooler side of the house.

[Scotty vino]

Ventilation progress. Got hold of some 200mm x 3 metre ducting. Had to knock out a brick and a small piece of timber
to get the ducting over the wall. Taped the other end to fan and away we go! Sounds like a little jet engine once it gets going.
I have it running on 30min on / 30min off timer as to not push it too hard.
Seems to have made quite a difference already and it's only been running 24hrs.
The ducting itself is pointing into the sub floor space adjacent. From there it's about 2 metres to the outside of the house where
the air can leave via a vent. The previous owner had blocked this outside vent with timber for some strange reason.
I reopened the vent, knocked out a brick and whacked a grate over it. Just with my hand there I can feel the air flow.
Maybe one day I'll put wine in this thing.

[Bobthebuilder]

Good stuff scotty, that's one decent sized fan!
The bloke is likely to have put the timber there to stop vermin, too damn lazy to go get some mesh.
That has probably added to the high humidity over many years with no airflow down there.
Would be really interesting to track the moisture levels down there over this process.
If you find any other blocked up vents open them up too, and when the fan is off try and map the natural draft path, it's best to maintain that path with the mechanical ventilation so the fan is just assisting the draft, not fighting it.
You can test it quite easily by just pinning some ribbons to dangle off the floor joists throughout the area.

[Scotty vino]

the only real flow i can achieve is to the small outside wall vent which seems to be the natural flow of air.
The walls are a lot drier now that I've had the fan going for a few days. Seems to be doing the trick.
I finally bricked up the shelf wall and in a couple of days I'll be ready to back fill it with road base and sand and put a concrete top on.
I'll wait another week for the concrete to go off then in goes the rack

[Scotty vino]

concrete laid. give it a week to dry then rack goes in.
was probably a bag short in crete. lesson learned but is level, flat and solid enough to accommodate racking.
IN meantime pulled out old rotten joist and replaced with new.
(nothing like holding a 2 metre length of 10mm Jarrah above your head to work the arms)
Still running extractor fan and it's nearly there in terms of humidity/dampness levels.
had a couple of brutally hot days low/mid forties and cellar still held mid 19 degree temp with maybe a 0.3 variance.
I think this cellar will be perfect for quaffers and medium cellaring wines which is what i drink most of.
I've done a pile of research on long term cellaring temperatures and it seems 12-16 is the golden rule although it also seems
anything around 18-20 is fine without too much variance.
SO I'm not sure whether I'd store my complete vertical of Pennies Grange in 18-20 but that's what I'll keep my 110 vintec for.
SWMBO has no interest in descending into the cellar and is happy with the vintec.
This is a recipe for trouble.

[michel]

I agree stability is king
if you want to drink the wine in your lifetime then 18 is fine
my cellar is 15 deg

I like how you have made do with what you had
I used a space under the house as well

Michel

[JamieBahrain]

I'd prefer 13 for many Aussie wines. They can be maturation racehorses and I have so much stuff that is surprising me in how quickly it needs to be drunk with it's plateau not being terribly flat.

[maybs]

Looking awesome mate, remain very jealous though you have worked hard for it. Well done.

[Scotty vino]

finally got my rack in. The rack itself is perhaps slightly over engineered but that's got
to be a good thing if it's looking at holding 100+ bottles.
You know it's a serious rack when you're using a 15mm socket/ratchet to install it!
I was going to put the rack on the shelf/concrete section but it just seemed better
on the ground with the small wrought iron rack next to it. leaves me room on the concrete shelf for 2 people to sit
and make a selection . Exhaust fan still hammering away but will be coming out soon. With another day
of 40 plus temps and awful humidity at the end of the day the cellar was still holding 19.5-20.0
Again, prob not the perfect temp for the really serious stuff but good enough to get started and if it's like a mates
cellar it'll drop to a more appropriate temp when the weather stabilises.
next step is wiring it up for a couple of low wattage bunker lights. 150 watt halogen light hanging from a
solitary rusty nail is prob not a great thing long term.

[rens]

Very nice.

[Chuck]

Very nice indeed Scotty. It was great to enjoy the journey with you and the sheer excitement of discovery and endeavor. A true labour of love. Your very own nirvana!! Somewhere you can go and spend idle time reorganising and discovering forgotten gems. I have 2 nice glasses and a corkscrew (probably more important than the glasses) down there ready for the improbable nuclear winter. You just can't be too careful! I wonder how long you can survive on wine alone? Apparently you can live on beer and tomatoes so maybe it's wine and vitamin C.

Now comes the task of loading it up with bottles. More pictures would be great.

Now who else wants to share a journey of discovery. There must be heaps of houses in Adelaide with a sealed up cellar. Perhaps we could set up a task force with Scotty at the helm. Call it "Cellar Busters"

Carl

[Scotty vino]

couldn't resist and threw in another 40 rack. Homemade job out of some 42 x 19 pine.
takes my capacity to 158. Still room for quite a bit more but enough to accommodate my current needs.
my latest conundrum is deciding which bottles to pull out of my wine fridges and put down below.
pulled the exhaust fan and ducting out for the time being. seems to be dry enough.
Wouldn't mind seeing some pics of other forumites cellars for some comparisons.

[Bobthebuilder]

That's looking great scotty!
Holding 19-20deg with those heatwaves I reckon you are doing very well.
is there a natural draft moving through the area now the fans removed?