Why I prefer JO to JH

[Red Bigot]

I'm n ot really trying to start another argument over the relative merits of these two, but there are some practical issues that sway me strongly to Jeremy Oliver.

I bought the JH 2007 Wine Companion today when I saw it @ $22.95 (rrp $32,99) at Dymocks. Having a bit of a browse through and two things stand out:
1. The generosity of some (many?) of the points, especially for wines I've tried and have a big discrepancy in my own perception of the wine compared to his.
2. The number of wines where the vintages listed are now superseded by a new vintage release. (there are a lot as well that review un-released vintages).

I'm not going to the extent of comparing JH and JO scores on the same wines (except for a few I may be interested in trying/buying), but at least JO has a web site I subscribe to where I can check the full history of many wines and keep up to date with new releases of many wines. All for not much more than the rrp of the static printed annual Guide.

JH used to have a CD of historical notes and for a brief period the Winepros site provided a vehicle like the JO site, but that is now in a sad state and not worth the subscription.

One big vote for JO from me.

[platinum]

1. The generosity of some (many?) of the points, especially for wines I've tried and have a big discrepancy in my own perception of the wine compared to his.
.

Names Please

I think both JO and JH as with all of us get to try good examples and not so good. I guess theres no reason to try re try a wine that shows so well but you would think that with some of the big reputation wines that dont show well that they would seek a second try? I havent got a copy yet what did JH rate the Majella Cab 2003?

I buy both books and think JH gives higher ratings in general and ends up with tons more wines at 94-96 as a result. Is this what you are reffering to Brian?

[platinum]

2. The number of wines where the vintages listed are now superseded by a new vintage release. (there are a lot as well that review un-released vintages).
.
.

There is nothing worst than buying the latest book and finding this. Its also ashame when a wine is released after the book and you have to wait 12 months for the rating. Atleast the latter is unavoidable...Unless you subscribe to the site. I only subscribe to Cambells and also enjoy Rics

[Mark S]

Never could understand the passions and criticisms levelled at JH or JO - both do sterling work - their publications reflect phenomenal amounts of research & invaluable info, though they're distinctly different in format and intent. I greatly look forward to getting The Australian Wine Companion, the Australian Wine Annual, and the annual Penguin Guide.

Is there a website where James Halliday's ratings/tastings appear? I know that Winepros has been dead in the water for years, and I don't think JH has any current connection with them anymore.

PS still use JH's CD ROM (Wine Organizer, 2000-2001) as my computer database for just about everything. Great pity this was discontinued.

[Ian S]

I'm not really trying to start another argument over the relative merits of these two, but there are some practical issues that sway me strongly to Jeremy Oliver.

I bought the JH 2007 Wine Companion today when I saw it @ $22.95 (rrp $32,99) at Dymocks. Having a bit of a browse through and two things stand out:
1. The generosity of some (many?) of the points, especially for wines I've tried and have a big discrepancy in my own perception of the wine compared to his.
2. The number of wines where the vintages listed are now superseded by a new vintage release. (there are a lot as well that review un-released vintages).

I'm not going to the extent of comparing JH and JO scores on the same wines (except for a few I may be interested in trying/buying), but at least JO has a web site I subscribe to where I can check the full history of many wines and keep up to date with new releases of many wines. All for not much more than the rrp of the static printed annual Guide.

JH used to have a CD of historical notes and for a brief period the Winepros site provided a vehicle like the JO site, but that is now in a sad state and not worth the subscription.

One big vote for JO from me.

1. Whilst I agree with you, points are points and I know you like many here are not hung up on them. I take it more as a than a There is a risk with his continued involvement with the Fosters (via Southcorp and Coldstream Hills) group, but it's IMO not justified to take the next step of suspecting favouritism.

2. This is tough and with the volume he tastes, he's always been impacted by the release dates of the producers. With a crowded schedule, perhaps he misses a few key tastings or struggles with a backlog. As long as they appear I don't care (partly though, being based in UK, we have a natural delay to the arrival of wines anyway)

3. Website. Yes he did get rather stung by the Winepros troubles and I hope he hasn't signed away the rights to his old notes. Maybe there is some legal issue preventing him setting up a competitive website to winepros? If not, he may just be wary.

Up until 5 years ago, IMO Hallidays guide was the most useful annual guide for Oz and NZ. Back then there was limited TN's from Oliver (who does IMO write truly excellent notes). Halliday meanwhile had fine notes, with excellent background and a more than useful slant on ther NZ market.

Fast forward to 2006 (2007 won't hit our shelves for a month or two) and Oliver has added much more in the way of tasting notes, has established a very professional wine site and has made some big calls on the likes of (for instance) Henschke, that have AFAIK generally been bang on the money. Meanwhile Halliday has dropped NZ, dropped any reference to prior vintages, dropped the general wine summary, dropped the product range and dropped the depth of tasting notes. What's the cause? Just the volume of wineries out there and a continuing commitment to providing a complete view across the whole industry. This commitment has advantages, most notably for winery touring, but also for avoiding an unhealthy focus on the big and elite (One of my favourite cellar door experiences was this year at Kings of Kangaroo Ground - a winery that I'm confident will never appear in Olivers production nor the Penguin guide). Overall though, it feels like a shadow of what it was.

To reverse the trend, I would suggest he transfers the winery information to either a bi-annual book devoted to these contact details and winery summary, adding back in the overview of product range and the general wine descriptions. Why not add NZ back in at the same time. Even better, this is a classic for a well-designed web site, with summary and search options, maps and perhaps a route planner facility further down the line. What an immensely useful site that would be!

Meanwhile, the tasting notes could come out as a separate publication, and with less space pressure the notes wouldn't need the excessive editing we currently see. On top we could see some tasting notes of older wines, which I tend to prefer, rather than the "buying guide" nature of most current guides (Broadbents Vintage wine is a great read, but I'd not suggest Halliday went quite to this extreme in old wines). To be commercial, I'm sure he has to major on current releases, with maybe up to 10% older wines adding insight to why some wines should be cellared.

Hopefully not seen as Halliday bashing - his talent is probably increased - I just think he's been shackled over the last 4-5 years.

Just my 4.27 Zloty

regards

Ian

[Maharishi]

JH is a fence sitter and JO is eratic.

[Ian S]

JH is a fence sitter and JO is eratic.

And Maharishi is an erratic speller (but has fine robes and a flowing beard, so that's ok).

Unless you meant erotic? No, surely not. How could Maharishi fall into another sex scandal after that unfortunate incident with the Llama. Say it isn't so Maharishi.

[Red Bigot]

Never could understand the passions and criticisms levelled at JH or JO - both do sterling work - their publications reflect phenomenal amounts of research & invaluable info, though they're distinctly different in format and intent. I greatly look forward to getting The Australian Wine Companion, the Australian Wine Annual, and the annual Penguin Guide.

Is there a website where James Halliday's ratings/tastings appear? I know that Winepros has been dead in the water for years, and I don't think JH has any current connection with them anymore.

PS still use JH's CD ROM (Wine Organizer, 2000-2001) as my computer database for just about everything. Great pity this was discontinued.

Mark, as I said, I'm not trying to re-ignite past arguments on this, my comments are mainly directed at the usefulness of the annual published paper format, publishing a "2007" annual in July 2006 when already there are many wines listed that have moved on a vintage is never going to be the best way to do things. JH doesn't currently have a website to publish updates/new notes and this is a very big practical handicap IMO.

I often disagree with JO ratings too, but Iless often than with JH in recent times and I find JO's comprehensive TN very useful.

BTW, time to update your cellar system.

[smithy]

Other way for me.
Whilst I can appreciate the lack of website is hard.
JH is very large work that includes the wines that I like to drink.

JO underwhelms me a fair bit with what is not included, and I find the flippant articles lacking depth and his pontificating to be a bit annoying. He also has a much smaller range of styles he appreciates.

Cheers
Smithy

[Red Bigot]

1. The generosity of some (many?) of the points, especially for wines I've tried and have a big discrepancy in my own perception of the wine compared to his.
.

Names Please

I think both JO and JH as with all of us get to try good examples and not so good. I guess theres no reason to try re try a wine that shows so well but you would think that with some of the big reputation wines that dont show well that they would seek a second try? I havent got a copy yet what did JH rate the Majella Cab 2003?

I buy both books and think JH gives higher ratings in general and ends up with tons more wines at 94-96 as a result. Is this what you are reffering to Brian?

Ian, I'll list a few where I think the scores are very generous, but yes, despite a general increase in average quality in the premium red sector (allowing for vintage conditions) I do find his upper scale very compressed, many of the wines he scores in the 92-96 range just don't seem to be that good to my palate. I'm sure the volume and scale of tastings must have some impact.

Here are a few I have tasted and think don't deserve the scores given:
2002 Willows Bonesetter Shiraz - 97
2003 Turkey Flat Shiraz - 96
2003 Howard park Scotsdale Shiraz - 96
2003 Turkey Flat Cabernet - 96 (same as the excellent Balnaves tally 2004)
2003 Howard park Scotsdale Cabernet - 95
2003 Wirra Wirra RSW Shiraz - 95
2994 Balnaves Shiraz - 94 - nice wine, but only 2 pts less than the Tally?
2004 Gemtree Uncut shiraz - 94 ditto
2003 Houghton Crofters cab-Merlot - 95
2004 Sally's Hill Shiiraz and Cabernet - 93, same points as the Sallys Paddock 2004.

[Red Bigot]

8) Other way for me.

He is generous isn't he?

[Ian S]

8) Other way for me.
Whilst I can appreciate the lack of website is hard.
JH is very large work that includes the wines that I like to drink.

It certainly is the most wide ranging and comprehensive. It would not surprise me if someone said it has a rating for every sound bottle of current vintage Australian wine he tasted that year. I do value tasting notes though and just because a wine scores less than 90 in his mind, doesn't mean I don't want to know about it.

JO underwhelms me a fair bit with what is not included, and I find the flippant articles lacking depth and his pontificating to be a bit annoying. He also has a much smaller range of styles he appreciates.

Cheers
Smithy

What is not included - fair enough. He's going to focus on the track records of wines he appreciates, or at least thinks are good. I think the 3 vintage rule counts against him now though and I really think he should allow himself a (small if need be) section of tasting notes of "notable other wines tasted in the year". It might be a controversial downgrading or upgrading of an older wine, or a stunning new arrival, or just a wine that he enjoyed that would otherwise have fallen through the cracks.

Flippant articles?!! If you want flippancy, go grab the Penguin guide (and most enjoyable it is for the occasional flippancy too). Of the three books, I find Oliver the most questioning, challenging and serious. If you'd said "opinionated articles" then it would be difficult to argue against, but I don't buy an accusation of flippancy. I believe you find his "pontification" annoying, because his tastes don't match your tastes. For me, he expresses his opinion very lucidly. I know his tastes differ from yours, and it's good to see it (and call it) as that. Using phrases like Pontification doesn't reflect well on you.

regards

Ian

[TORB]

I basically agree with all the points that Brian has made.

Haliday's scores seem to be coming more generous and compressed at the top end and I find his reviews are too short and not detailed enough.

On the positive side, the detailed winery information is extremely useful.

I know that not too many people take the Maharishi seriously, but his comments "JH is a fence sitter and JO is eratic" is downright insulting, and almost libellous; furthermore the Maharishi provides absolutely no evidence, by way of examples, or foundation of fact to support his ridiculous allegations.

Finally, I will also disagree with Andrew on his comment that JO's articles are flippant. Firstly, I have been reading is the stuff for years and I don't think I've ever seen any evidence of flippancy in anything is ever written.

Secondly, I think many of us realise that there is a history here that could colour Andrew's thinking.

Point three, as far as JO articles "lacking depth" are concerned, considering the vast majority of them are short, and design to be that way, how much depth do you expect? Are many of Huon Hooke's short pieces in the Sydney morning Herald Good living section any different in terms of depth? As someone who writes short articles on the Internet, believe me I know how difficult it is to obtain "depth" in short articles. It's virtually impossible unless they are lengthily.

[Davo]

I no longer buy either.

I travel yearly at least to my favourite wine regions for CD tastings and buy what I like, either at CD or etail depending on availability and price.

I must admit to rarely buying wine untasted but this will only be on the recommendation of people I trust and who have like palates.

I do this because of past disappointments when putting my trust in vaunted published opinion.

[Gavin Trott]

I no longer buy either.

I travel yearly at least to my favourite wine regions for CD tastings and buy what I like, either at CD or etail depending on availability and price.

I must admit to rarely buying wine untasted but this will only be on the recommendation of people I trust and who have like palates.

I do this because of past disappointments when putting my trust in vaunted published opinion.

Davo

You're famous.

Been to the Veritas web site lately!

[Red Bigot]

Davo

You're famous.

Been to the Veritas web site lately!

"A rat fell in my wine" is a bit like "the dog ate my homework".

http://www.rolfbinder.com/index_alt.php ... 5e5b9764f7

[Davo]

Oh yes, I have thanked the wife at length for telling tales out of school.

It could be the last time she accompanies me anywhere

[Deano]

I commented before on a another topic about the release of JH book a week ago and said that i will probably not buy it...and well i'm happy with myself not to be tempted...especially at 32.99...no specials yet...and at 22.99 that is great...so i sat in the book shop yesterday and read for about 1/2 hr...might do this until i get what i want...or until i can find it significantly discounted...i noted and was frustrated that the abstract for each winery is basically the same...i noted the wineries i buy from and get pissed off seeing that this hasn't changed...why not streamline this or attempt to change the story every 2 to 3 years...having 4 previous books and this makes 5...and added that the vintages have passed...this book is looking a bit tied...is it heading like the Winepros site????

[bacchaebabe]

Been to the Veritas web site lately!

I haven't been to the Veritas website for ages.

You've spruced it up considerably Rolf!

[Mark S]

JH is a fence sitter and JO is eratic.

And Maharishi is an erratic speller (but has fine robes and a flowing beard, so that's ok).

Unless you meant erotic? No, surely not. How could Maharishi fall into another sex scandal after that unfortunate incident with the Llama. Say it isn't so Maharishi.

That Maharishi sure gets around for an old guru - had no idea he'd been to South America

Very thoughtul comments, Ian S - the things Halliday's dropped from the Wine Companion have diminished the publication - not sure that splitting it into 2 books is the solution, though. A fully-resourced website could be the answer - there must be some obstacle to this, or otherwise surely JH would have already done it, wouldn't he

Brian, I remember you offered your own database, thankyou. Thing is, I've around 5000 tasting notes, purchase records, etc on JH's Wine Organizer - the thought of manually transcribing them to another system terrifies me

[Ian S]

JH is a fence sitter and JO is eratic.

And Maharishi is an erratic speller (but has fine robes and a flowing beard, so that's ok).

Unless you meant erotic? No, surely not. How could Maharishi fall into another sex scandal after that unfortunate incident with the Llama. Say it isn't so Maharishi.

That Maharishi sure gets around for an old guru - had no idea he'd been to South America

Very thoughtul comments, Ian S - the things Halliday's dropped from the Wine Companion have diminished the publication - not sure that splitting it into 2 books is the solution, though. A fully-resourced website could be the answer - there must be some obstacle to this, or otherwise surely JH would have already done it, wouldn't he

Brian, I remember you offered your own database, thankyou. Thing is, I've around 5000 tasting notes, purchase records, etc on JH's Wine Organizer - the thought of manually transcribing them to another system terrifies me

Mark
I think we seem all in agreement that he's missing a trick with the lack of web presence (and yes I think a web portal would be more useful than a 2nd book). Is it possible he's still bound by a Winepros contract?
regards
Ian

[Red Bigot]

Brian, I remember you offered your own database, thankyou. Thing is, I've around 5000 tasting notes, purchase records, etc on JH's Wine Organizer - the thought of manually transcribing them to another system terrifies me

I'm a bit surprised that old database still works on Windows XP (or are you still using Windows 98? )

[Red Bigot]

Very thoughtul comments, Ian S - the things Halliday's dropped from the Wine Companion have diminished the publication - not sure that splitting it into 2 books is the solution, though. A fully-resourced website could be the answer - there must be some obstacle to this, or otherwise surely JH would have already done it, wouldn't he

I think it's pretty clear to "serious" wine buyers/drinkers that an annual book without history or ongoing update mechanism has limited usefulness. Does anybody have access to JH to ask him why he hasn't tried the web-site strategy again since the Winepros debacle? I can understand the lack of a CD, he'd sell 5 copies and it would be copied everywhere.

[GraemeG]

Meanwhile, the tasting notes could come out as a separate publication, and with less space pressure the notes wouldn't need the excessive editing we currently see. On top we could see some tasting notes of older wines, which I tend to prefer, rather than the "buying guide" nature of most current guides (Broadbents Vintage wine is a great read, but I'd not suggest Halliday went quite to this extreme in old wines).

I reckon that'd be a great buy. Halliday's had 'Classic Wines', but the 3rd edition is many years out of date now. I'd be equally interested in an Oliver compendium of TNs as well, very much in the style of Broadbent's opus. A lot of it is just colelcting together the last 10-odd years of notes - not nearly the effort of tasting 2000 new release wines for the next buying guide.
cheers,
Graeme