Screwcap - the debate
Screwcap - the debate
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Last edited by Sean on Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Guest
Tyrrels wrote:but do not seem...
Hardly "adamant" (wasn't he a 70's britpop singer?).
Both companies are talking about the performance of 'ideal' corks.
Cork is a natural product, it is variable in makeup. Leaving aside the TCA taint issue there is also the variable seal and makeup resulting in inconsistent aging and variable oxidation tghat affect far too many wines sealed in cork.
I've had wines sealed in cork that show more lift on the nose and front palate, but do not seem to develop the same complexity and depth of character on the middle palate and finish than another of the same bottle sealed in cork.
So what have you lost by switching to screwcap? Not a lot as far as I can see.
Both Tyrrels and Tahbilk reflect a pragmatic view of the state of the seal as it is since it's reintroduction late last century. They are taking a cautious view. That's fine, it's their business after all, and they succeed or fail on the choices they make.
Murray
Sean,
That was one hell of a long post.
There are two factors in play in this debate.
1. Fact
2. Emotion.
Lets concentrate of point 1. We know that ROTE's are fine for whites and short term reds but in reality, there is no concrete proof about reds for the long term.
There is a lot of personal thoughts and emotion about long term reds under ROTE but no factual evidence. Long term reds may or may not be fine under ROTE, only time will tell.
What hope do consumers have of sorting through the fact from the emotion when you have respected wineries giving contradictory stories. BTW, I heard (on the grape vine for a Tyrells rep) years ago that Tyrells were trialling reds under ROTE and they were not doing as well as expected/hoped so these comments are in line with previous information.
In summary, no one knows for sure, people may think they do, but its only supposition. The jury will take some time to deliver a verdict, till then I will keep an open mind.
BTW, why isn't the AWRI doing a red study like the c-through one?
That was one hell of a long post.
There are two factors in play in this debate.
1. Fact
2. Emotion.
Lets concentrate of point 1. We know that ROTE's are fine for whites and short term reds but in reality, there is no concrete proof about reds for the long term.
There is a lot of personal thoughts and emotion about long term reds under ROTE but no factual evidence. Long term reds may or may not be fine under ROTE, only time will tell.
What hope do consumers have of sorting through the fact from the emotion when you have respected wineries giving contradictory stories. BTW, I heard (on the grape vine for a Tyrells rep) years ago that Tyrells were trialling reds under ROTE and they were not doing as well as expected/hoped so these comments are in line with previous information.
In summary, no one knows for sure, people may think they do, but its only supposition. The jury will take some time to deliver a verdict, till then I will keep an open mind.
BTW, why isn't the AWRI doing a red study like the c-through one?
Good post Sean,
My thoughts are mostly aligned with what TORB has typed, but with the longer term wines the BEST Cork Sealed wines are better than the screwcaps sealed wines, BUT you will only get 2-3 of these per case (due TCA, other taints and Randox). Whereas screwcap sealed wines will be not see these problems and will be almost as good the best cork sealed wines.
So the question is, do you want a seal which is a bit of a lucky dip (maybe great, good or dud) or do want a seal that will be consistently good.
It is no secret, I go for screwcap each time if available.
The Tyrrells trials, I think the technology has improved some what since then and from my understanding may be not such a strait answer.
Cheers
My thoughts are mostly aligned with what TORB has typed, but with the longer term wines the BEST Cork Sealed wines are better than the screwcaps sealed wines, BUT you will only get 2-3 of these per case (due TCA, other taints and Randox). Whereas screwcap sealed wines will be not see these problems and will be almost as good the best cork sealed wines.
So the question is, do you want a seal which is a bit of a lucky dip (maybe great, good or dud) or do want a seal that will be consistently good.
It is no secret, I go for screwcap each time if available.
The Tyrrells trials, I think the technology has improved some what since then and from my understanding may be not such a strait answer.
Cheers
jezza
Michael wrote:Murray,
can you help me out? you are either:
1. a fanatic & dullard
2. a shareholder in stelvin
which is it?
1. No, I'm a wine geek, it's the wine that is most important.
2. My only financial interest in screwcap is the one I have made in purchasing wine sealed with that closure. I have received no income, payola, freebies (whether wine, dinners, t-shirts, posters or mousemats) shares, or other inducements from the screwcap industry, either directly or indirectly.
I endorse screwcap, and crown seals for sparkling wine, as they address the problems with cork being taint, variable seal and oxidation (noting the link between the latter two). I'm not saying that it's the perfect seal, and that a better one won't come along, however it does address the issues.
While it's noted that there's no concrete proof for long term with reds, there's also no evidence that screwcap is not a seal equal to the best corks either.
On the other hand there is plenty of long term, factual evidence of the issues with cork.
As for the 'dullard' comment, that says more about you than it does about me. I'll ask Gavin to pass on your IP details so I can contact you directly to discuss it further, or you can pm me if you wish.
Murray Almond
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Curious
Murray wrote:I'll ask Gavin to pass on your IP details so I can contact you directly to discuss it further, or you can pm me if you wish.
Murray, how do you make contact from just an IP address?
Also, Gavin may possibly be breaking Privacy laws if he passes on information that identifies a person who obviously doesn't want his/her real identity revealed.
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Guest
The IP address spells out specifically where the the post was coming from, which Gavin has access to through the PHP software, it's quite straightforward to find out the ID of the computer the post in question came from. Any enquiry to that ISP for traffic to the Auswine forum in relation to an abusive post is within the bounds of the provacy legislation.
For an example of th IP tracking, check out the IP's displayed on Ric's guestbook, which is also sourced from PHP, same as the software used here.
That would have to be previously agreed with Gavin, this is a publicly accessable forum.
For an example of th IP tracking, check out the IP's displayed on Ric's guestbook, which is also sourced from PHP, same as the software used here.
a person who obviously doesn't want his/her real identity revealed.
That would have to be previously agreed with Gavin, this is a publicly accessable forum.
The IP address spells out specifically where the the post was coming from, which Gavin has access to through the PHP software, it's quite straightforward to find out the ID of the computer the post in question came from. Any enquiry to that ISP for traffic to the Auswine forum in relation to an abusive post is within the bounds of the privacy legislation.
For an example of IP tracking, check out the IP's displayed on Ric's guestbook, which is also sourced from PHP, same as the software used here.
That would have to be previously agreed with Gavin, this is a publicly acessible forum.
Both posts from me, and I'm still available for a pm.
For an example of IP tracking, check out the IP's displayed on Ric's guestbook, which is also sourced from PHP, same as the software used here.
a person who obviously doesn't want his/her real identity revealed.
That would have to be previously agreed with Gavin, this is a publicly acessible forum.
Both posts from me, and I'm still available for a pm.
Murray Almond
The obvious answer is "time will tell". But I cannot wait 10 years, so I am happy to take a risk and be an "early adopter" on this one until (if ever) the cork industry solves the TCA problem.
If they can solve the TCA problem then cork is fine with me, and I am probably happy to live with random oxidation. But for me TCA accounts for at least 10% of wine when you take into account all those bottles which just don't seem right (low level taint). You can't quite pick up bagginess/hessian but you know something is not right - the wine lacks fruit.
regards
Chris
If they can solve the TCA problem then cork is fine with me, and I am probably happy to live with random oxidation. But for me TCA accounts for at least 10% of wine when you take into account all those bottles which just don't seem right (low level taint). You can't quite pick up bagginess/hessian but you know something is not right - the wine lacks fruit.
regards
Chris
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Guest
Murray wrote:The IP address spells out specifically where the the post was coming from, which Gavin has access to through the PHP software, it's quite straightforward to find out the ID of the computer the post in question came from. Any enquiry to that ISP for traffic to the Auswine forum in relation to an abusive post is within the bounds of the privacy legislation.
For an example of IP tracking, check out the IP's displayed on Ric's guestbook, which is also sourced from PHP, same as the software used here.a person who obviously doesn't want his/her real identity revealed.
That would have to be previously agreed with Gavin, this is a publicly accessible forum.
Both posts from me, and I'm still available for a pm.
Geez this debate gets heated.
Sean..great post..well written and balanced.
Anyone who thinks Murray is a dullard has not read many of his posts.I gather he is quite the gentleman and no dummy!!
IP's are only useful if the ip is direct..an anon proxy server easily negates this..unless you are law enforcement the search will end there.
I personally buy stelvins in preference to cork..i've had too many dud bottles of treasured wine to have any love for the cork. TCA sucks.
ROTE is not perfect..maybe the ZORK is the answer or something still to be thought up..but cork i think has had its day.
Cheers
Paul
Sean..great post..well written and balanced.
Anyone who thinks Murray is a dullard has not read many of his posts.I gather he is quite the gentleman and no dummy!!
IP's are only useful if the ip is direct..an anon proxy server easily negates this..unless you are law enforcement the search will end there.
I personally buy stelvins in preference to cork..i've had too many dud bottles of treasured wine to have any love for the cork. TCA sucks.
ROTE is not perfect..maybe the ZORK is the answer or something still to be thought up..but cork i think has had its day.
Cheers
Paul
"You have only so many bottles in your life, never drink a bad one"
---Len Evans
---Len Evans
One of the Tyrrell's old-timers, that I won't name, told me at the cellar door a month or so ago that Bruce's view of ROTE was getting more positive. I look forward to that!
I take Paul T's view of the world... having a 20 year old wine under ROTE, no matter how possibly bad ROTE affects the aging process, can't be as bad as the corked 1983 Cullen I had, or the oxidised 1989 Vat 1, or the...
Am I simplifying the debate too far? ... isn't the answer to the debate whether a wine needs oxygen from outside the bottle to age properly or not?
Adair
I take Paul T's view of the world... having a 20 year old wine under ROTE, no matter how possibly bad ROTE affects the aging process, can't be as bad as the corked 1983 Cullen I had, or the oxidised 1989 Vat 1, or the...
Am I simplifying the debate too far? ... isn't the answer to the debate whether a wine needs oxygen from outside the bottle to age properly or not?
Adair
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Guest
Margaux's Pavillon goes under screwcap
This is all interesting and quite timely to see the Bordelais thinking about it vis-a-vis
http://www.decanter.com/news/56336.html
or
Chateau Margaux director Paul Pontallier has said he’s ‘ready to use anything’ as a closure ‘if it works.’
Pontallier is putting the 2002 vintage of MargauxÂ’s second wine Pavillon Rouge under screwcap as part of a major experiment into the two different closures, natural cork and screwcap.
Keen to stress that Bordeaux producers are both watching and contributing to the closure debate, he said, ‘While the universities concentrate on scientific research, there are many chateaux in Bordeaux which are now starting experiments. I am ready to use anything if it proves to work. What matters is the wine.’
He also made clear he thought screwcap would not be suitable for the first wine of Margaux.
‘I can certainly see the benefits of screwcaps for whites and would be very interested in using them for young reds that will be drunk within five years.
‘But we are far from knowing how red wines will age under screw cap after 25, 30, even 50 years, which is essential for us at Margaux.’
Pontallier said he was well aware of the pros and cons of natural cork, and wanted to find out as much as possible about screwcaps before committing himself. Frustrating as it is to open a spoiled bottle, he said we should be careful of knee-jerk reactions.
‘We will be as open-minded but as careful as possible: I donÂ’t want to go from one inconvenience to another. It is certainly frustrating to find corked bottles of wine, but frustration may not be a good reason for making such a drastic change. As the French say, “la cholère nÂ’est pas bon conseilleur - anger is not a good advisorÂâ€ÂÂ’.
http://www.decanter.com/news/56336.html
or
Chateau Margaux director Paul Pontallier has said he’s ‘ready to use anything’ as a closure ‘if it works.’
Pontallier is putting the 2002 vintage of MargauxÂ’s second wine Pavillon Rouge under screwcap as part of a major experiment into the two different closures, natural cork and screwcap.
Keen to stress that Bordeaux producers are both watching and contributing to the closure debate, he said, ‘While the universities concentrate on scientific research, there are many chateaux in Bordeaux which are now starting experiments. I am ready to use anything if it proves to work. What matters is the wine.’
He also made clear he thought screwcap would not be suitable for the first wine of Margaux.
‘I can certainly see the benefits of screwcaps for whites and would be very interested in using them for young reds that will be drunk within five years.
‘But we are far from knowing how red wines will age under screw cap after 25, 30, even 50 years, which is essential for us at Margaux.’
Pontallier said he was well aware of the pros and cons of natural cork, and wanted to find out as much as possible about screwcaps before committing himself. Frustrating as it is to open a spoiled bottle, he said we should be careful of knee-jerk reactions.
‘We will be as open-minded but as careful as possible: I donÂ’t want to go from one inconvenience to another. It is certainly frustrating to find corked bottles of wine, but frustration may not be a good reason for making such a drastic change. As the French say, “la cholère nÂ’est pas bon conseilleur - anger is not a good advisorÂâ€ÂÂ’.
All of Kay Bros Amery wines will be under ROTE for the 2002 vintage. As I've mentioned before, while I love the idea of no cork taint, I've found the ROTE to be susceptable to damage by even small impacts. I said this at the cellar door, and they assured me there's a tougher enclosure used for the 2002 Block 6.
I hate mild TCA in a wine - it's hard to judge if it's the cork or a dud wine. This week I opened up two bottles of 1998 Tollana TR222 after suspecting the first had this (not evident on the nose, but the back palate seemed to be rather rank). After more breathing it was a bit more like the second bottle, so I'm almost convinced it wasn't the cork, but it's just an exceptionally green & stalky wine. Then again as TORB has said, you can pick up some mild TCA initially and adjust to it; you don't seem to notice it (or as as much), but it's still there.
Cheers
Ian
I hate mild TCA in a wine - it's hard to judge if it's the cork or a dud wine. This week I opened up two bottles of 1998 Tollana TR222 after suspecting the first had this (not evident on the nose, but the back palate seemed to be rather rank). After more breathing it was a bit more like the second bottle, so I'm almost convinced it wasn't the cork, but it's just an exceptionally green & stalky wine. Then again as TORB has said, you can pick up some mild TCA initially and adjust to it; you don't seem to notice it (or as as much), but it's still there.
Cheers
Ian
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.