BYO Australia?

[JamieBahrain]

I’m getting a little frustrated with restaurants in Australia with truly crappy wine lists not permitting BYO. I’m guessing it is a state by state policy, but has anyone delved into the restrictions? Is it policy or legality?

Coming from Hong Kong I had no problems paying up to $100 AUD BYO though more often much lower. So in Australia if a restaurant’s profit on its most popular wine is $30 what’s wrong with charging $30 BYO? Keeps the mugs at bay with their clean skins and I’d consider it a win-win for diners with a special bottle and the restaurant.

“ Apologies re the Grange though. We have a strict no exception BYO policy so unfortunately cannot accommodate that request.”

This restaurant’s top reds are about $100 and double cellar door retail so their markup about $60 a bottle. Surely a BYO charge could meet their reasonable profit needs?

[GraemeG]

I think they just have no imagination.
Or ambition, obviously.

I doubt it's anything to do with regulation, or indeed license costs.
I think they just want to stop people bringing their own beer.
That's as far as they can see.

And the notion that someone might be prepared to pay $40 'corkage' hasn't even entered their imagination.

[JamieBahrain]

Yep Graeme, just politely challenged a restaurant’s logic and they stated it was because diners expect no corkage fee if BYO permitted.

Now this place in the Byron wealth basin- Hemsworths choppering in would have no worries paying a corkage with an armful of glitzy Cal reds to show off. Anyways, concur, no imagination.

[Matt@5453]

I am guessing it has to be each restaurants own policy.
I agree its ridiculous, I am prepared to pay a fair BYO charge to drink a decent bottle.
A couple of local establishments in the Clare Valley recently withdrew BYO - which is annoying in a wine region.

[phillisc]

Yes a consideration that I am exploring more and more...that I actually need to start knocking off a few bottles.
I always ask, for instance, going to a run of the mill pub this weekend before a show nearby and was pleasantly surprised, that BYO at $15 a bottle (no cap on the number of bottles), or $10 if you make a purchase from the bottle shop...still saves money on buying from an inflated wine list...never understood the attraction or appeal or marketing stupidity ( read there's a sucker born every minute) who would purchase Jim Barry Watervale Riesling at $50, $60, $70+ a bottle

I am also on the constant look out for free corkage and there are a couple of eateries in my area that do fab food, with free corkage, or free on particular nights (Sun/Mon). One of these places has current and back vintage HoG (mind you considerable mark ups), but are progressive and ambitious enough to say that the food here is really good and we want you to enjoy it, and we will allow you to bring bottles along.

As for restaurants in wine areas prohibiting BYO...do they want to go out of business...quickly!!??

Cheers Craig

[mjs]

I have been pleasantly surprised having come recently to Adelaide that most restaurants allow byo and mostly with corkage, which is usually between $12-$20. Don't mind that. Of course, having recently left Melbourne, which really has been the byo capital of Australia in the past, that's not saying that much I guess. Unfortunately, there are more licensed joints in Melbourne now that don't take byo, hence my pleasant surprise with the proliferation in Adelaide.

Unfortunately we (as in people who appreciate wine and wine with food) are a small percentage of punters. Most restaurants stick to the food and make money on the grog model, without much more imagination about the importance of wine to some people and that suits most clientele. If we could just go back to the halcyon days of the 80's with Iain Hewitson and his byo restaurant Fleurie in Melbourne!

[Mike Hawkins]

I used to offer to pay corkage equal to the lowest price wine on their list while dining in London restaurants. Some would accommodate me, most didn’t. It doesn’t work in Sydney.

In NYC it was a harder sell. That said, even EMP which had a couple of years as number one restaurant in the world would allow it, as long as the bottle was great, wasn’t on their list and I paid USD 75 corkage per bottle. I used to take Aussie wines as they only listed grange and HOG at the time

[phillisc]

EMP Mike!!! At least I can say I have walked past, but aren't in the race to eat there...period.
In my two visits to your wonderful city, I found a host of restaurants that had very sensibly priced Bordeaux and Nappa cabernets.
Freemans in Bowery for example, was an absolute treat, went back a couple of times.

Yes we are quite lucky in Adelaide, just booked a place in the city for a long boozy lunch next month, wines can be dropped off prior and refrigerated, decent stemware and decanted prior if requested, for $20 a bottle

Cheers Craig

[JamieBahrain]

A couple of local establishments in the Clare Valley recently withdrew BYO - which is annoying in a wine region.

Yes that’s terrible. I love SA wine regions for their BYO. The Barossa experience always wonderful for me, pick up some oldies from the cellar and enjoy some terrific dining for a reasonable BYO ( Ferment Asian $20 for example ) . Last visit, oh so long ago, I took a few bottles of early 90’s Old Block. Left a small glass for the waiter who was making a career in the wine industry.

[brodie]

There was a recent long thread on WB about this. Quite a number of ITB contributed to the thread including an Aussie who has 30 years of experience. It was quite a revealing discussion, with a lot the same issues as this thread has raised.

A few key points came out;

1. Most restaurants find BYO to be an overall negative to the running of their business and basically zero impact on the financials
2. Very very few patrons who take advantage of BYO policies have cellars or bring anything even half way decent (we are just a round off error)
3. The restaurants do not want the hassle factor associated with BYO and since it makes no money, much easier just to say no
4. It is not a lack of imagination, the restaurants are just not interested

To make corkage work (in a restaurant that has an "official" no BYO policy) the following factors are the key to success;

1. Need to have a personal relationship or connection with the owner or GM - someone with genuine decision making authority.
2. Negotiate (in person) upfront the number of bottles, cost per bottle and all the appropriate logistics
3. Cold calling or cold emailing without the personal connection never seems to work
4. Not too big a group that interferes with the flow of the evening for other patrons
5. Go on a Monday or Tuesday night when things are slower
6. Be a generous tipper (esp. a USA comment but I think relevant for us too)
7. Share the wines with the staff - I like to leave 50-100ml per bottle behind with instruction that is be shared with the kitchen staff.

Here in Auckland "official" BYO is mostly limited to small family run Asian restaurants. Pretty all higher end "fine dining" places do not allow BYO.

But I have had good luck finding 4-5 good quality restaurants that will charge us corkage to bring wines for a themed a wine dinner (10 pax max). Following the steps above has worked well for us and we get welcomed back enthusiastically. But it did take more than a year to get to this point.

Brodie

[JamieBahrain]

Hong Kong had a few places where they liked the concept of buying a bottle off the list and then getting a BYO bottle free. I never liked this abs would have preferred to just pay a corkage. Friends get it a good deal so we’d buy a few whites to commence more serious proceedings.

I still can’t get past the “special bottle” consideration on occasion? It comes across as place rude if willing to pay a fair corkage.

[phillisc]

Brodie, interesting points, some of which I agree, others I don't.
Restaurants make a substantial investment with their wine portfolios, but due to a licence, all are procured at cost, or at 'special rates'. Certainly was the case when I worked in them...wineries after all have a need to sell wine.
However, I still think there's money to be made, the common scenario is a coupe will have dinner and eek out one bottle over the night, versus a group who comes in with 10 bottles at $25-30 a bottle corkage, owner still makes money over what the single bottle price the couple paid.

I agree with point 7 and have been doing this for a while now, when the wines are served, even get the waiter to have a little taste up front, good learning experience for them and yes any leftovers, go to the kitchen.

I do miss my frequent trips to Melbourne and catching up with mates in Swanston St/China town, where the Chinese don't really care and probably see us all as Western drunks, but $1-2 corkage is a blast with a heap of delicious food, and should I need something cheap and cheerful off a drinks list, mark-ups are less than 100%

Cheers Craig

[brodie]

However, I still think there's money to be made, the common scenario is a coupe will have dinner and eek out one bottle over the night, versus a group who comes in with 10 bottles at $25-30 a bottle corkage, owner still makes money over what the single bottle price the couple paid.

Cheers Craig

Hi Craig, what was remarkable in the WB thread was the number of times, wine lovers would say exactly what you just said and the ITB restaurant folks who come back pretty much unanimously and say - nope! It would seem that there just is not enough of us wine lover out there for BYO to make any kind of business sense to the majority of restaurateurs. What we need is more restaurant owners who share our passion for properly aged wines, who will do corkage quietly on the side for folks like us!

Look I am with you on this and I feel there must a way to make it work, but sadly it has gotten harder over time.

Another issue for licensed restaurants; with the overall decline in alcohol consumption in Aust & NZ, restaurants are selling less wine than they did 10 or 20 years ago. So the cost of holding inventory goes up and stock turnover decreases, making even BYO less appealing. BTW, this is not my opinion this what a wine loving Aust restaurateur said.

cheers Brodie

[Scotty vino]

Went the old Raj on Taj Hyde park recently. They said if we went the $50 a head set menu they'd waive the corkage on the 4 bottles we showed up with.Done!

[phillisc]

However, I still think there's money to be made, the common scenario is a coupe will have dinner and eek out one bottle over the night, versus a group who comes in with 10 bottles at $25-30 a bottle corkage, owner still makes money over what the single bottle price the couple paid.

Cheers Craig

Hi Craig, what was remarkable in the WB thread was the number of times, wine lovers would say exactly what you just said and the ITB restaurant folks who come back pretty much unanimously and say - nope! It would seem that there just is not enough of us wine lover out there for BYO to make any kind of business sense to the majority of restaurateurs. What we need is more restaurant owners who share our passion for properly aged wines, who will do corkage quietly on the side for folks like us!

Look I am with you on this and I feel there must a way to make it work, but sadly it has gotten harder over time.

Another issue for licensed restaurants; with the overall decline in alcohol consumption in Aust & NZ, restaurants are selling less wine than they did 10 or 20 years ago. So the cost of holding inventory goes up and stock turnover decreases, making even BYO less appealing. BTW, this is not my opinion this what a wine loving Aust restaurateur said.

cheers Brodie

Thanks Brodie, much appreciated and valuable insights.
Guess the other thing and the weather is warning up, more gatherings at home, people bring glasses and or a salad and away we go. I have spent most of this year recovering from a variety of ailments and have had an opportunity to start fixing up the back yard...still a long way to go mind you, but a long table under the veranda, with like minded souls sounds promising.

Cheers Craig

[phillisc]

Went the old Raj on Taj Hyde park recently. They said if we went the $50 a head set menu they'd waive the corkage on the 4 bottles we showed up with.Done!

Ha ha...Chefs of Tandoori, Royal Tandoori yes similar experiences...nothing like a stewed Barossa Shiraz with a Vindaloo

Cheers Craig

[Blue]

Yes, very annoying. If they are being very difficult, I normally ask to buy a bottle or few bottles of wines from their list and ask them to open mine instead. Normally they would offer for us to take their wines home, or they could keep if you don’t want them.

[Mike Hawkins]

EMP Mike!!! At least I can say I have walked past, but aren't in the race to eat there...period.
In my two visits to your wonderful city, I found a host of restaurants that had very sensibly priced Bordeaux and Nappa cabernets.
Freemans in Bowery for example, was an absolute treat, went back a couple of times.

Yes we are quite lucky in Adelaide, just booked a place in the city for a long boozy lunch next month, wines can be dropped off prior and refrigerated, decent stemware and decanted prior if requested, for $20 a bottle

Cheers Craig

Finding EMP in the mid noughties was a serendipitous fluke. Someone told me they ‘might’ allow byo which they did. Food back then was Prix fix $35…. Before eventually becoming $400! Sufficed to say I used to go there minimum once a month until it got all the accolades and became expensive. When it was simply a local byo restaurant it was the best value meal on the planet.

[Mike Hawkins]

EMP Mike!!! At least I can say I have walked past, but aren't in the race to eat there...period.
In my two visits to your wonderful city, I found a host of restaurants that had very sensibly priced Bordeaux and Nappa cabernets.
Freemans in Bowery for example, was an absolute treat, went back a couple of times.

Yes we are quite lucky in Adelaide, just booked a place in the city for a long boozy lunch next month, wines can be dropped off prior and refrigerated, decent stemware and decanted prior if requested, for $20 a bottle

Cheers Craig

Finding EMP in the mid noughties was a serendipitous fluke. Someone told me they ‘might’ allow byo which they did. Food back then was Prix fix $35…. Before eventually becoming $400! Sufficed to say I used to go there minimum once a month until it got all the accolades and became expensive. When it was simply a local byo restaurant it was the best value meal on the planet. I think initially they charged $15 per bottle.

[brodie]

EMP Mike!!! At least I can say I have walked past, but aren't in the race to eat there...period.
In my two visits to your wonderful city, I found a host of restaurants that had very sensibly priced Bordeaux and Nappa cabernets.
Freemans in Bowery for example, was an absolute treat, went back a couple of times.

Yes we are quite lucky in Adelaide, just booked a place in the city for a long boozy lunch next month, wines can be dropped off prior and refrigerated, decent stemware and decanted prior if requested, for $20 a bottle

Cheers Craig

Finding EMP in the mid noughties was a serendipitous fluke. Someone told me they ‘might’ allow byo which they did. Food back then was Prix fix $35…. Before eventually becoming $400! Sufficed to say I used to go there minimum once a month until it got all the accolades and became expensive. When it was simply a local byo restaurant it was the best value meal on the planet.

I keep thinking about The Matrix and Electro Magnetic Pulse to kill the squiddies

[daver6]

However, I still think there's money to be made, the common scenario is a coupe will have dinner and eek out one bottle over the night, versus a group who comes in with 10 bottles at $25-30 a bottle corkage, owner still makes money over what the single bottle price the couple paid.

Cheers Craig

Hi Craig, what was remarkable in the WB thread was the number of times, wine lovers would say exactly what you just said and the ITB restaurant folks who come back pretty much unanimously and say - nope! It would seem that there just is not enough of us wine lover out there for BYO to make any kind of business sense to the majority of restaurateurs. What we need is more restaurant owners who share our passion for properly aged wines, who will do corkage quietly on the side for folks like us!

cheers Brodie

Are they saying that they're losing money then by allowing BYO?

I realise I'm in the minority here, but I go with friends to BYO on a regular basis in Perth on a Mon-Wed night when they won't be as busy, If the venue won't allow BYO, we just go somewhere else. So on a night when a venue has empty tables are they really better off by not allowing BYO and having potential customers not dine with them?

As a side note, in Perth there are a few venues that will allow BYO mid-week, but not weekends. That seems very reasonable.

[brodie]

However, I still think there's money to be made, the common scenario is a coupe will have dinner and eek out one bottle over the night, versus a group who comes in with 10 bottles at $25-30 a bottle corkage, owner still makes money over what the single bottle price the couple paid.

Cheers Craig

Hi Craig, what was remarkable in the WB thread was the number of times, wine lovers would say exactly what you just said and the ITB restaurant folks who come back pretty much unanimously and say - nope! It would seem that there just is not enough of us wine lover out there for BYO to make any kind of business sense to the majority of restaurateurs. What we need is more restaurant owners who share our passion for properly aged wines, who will do corkage quietly on the side for folks like us!

cheers Brodie

Are they saying that they're losing money then by allowing BYO?

I realise I'm in the minority here, but I go with friends to BYO on a regular basis in Perth on a Mon-Wed night when they won't be as busy, If the venue won't allow BYO, we just go somewhere else. So on a night when a venue has empty tables are they really better off by not allowing BYO and having potential customers not dine with them?

As a side note, in Perth there are a few venues that will allow BYO mid-week, but not weekends. That seems very reasonable.

Hi Dave, no I think what the restaurant crowd are saying that if you have an official published BYO policy, you end up with all kinds of crap wines and beer being brought in. Since it makes so little difference to their overall overall bottom line the general attitude appears to be"why bother".

We are all wine nerds and our view of restaurants (and their economics) is heavily coloured by our love of wine- and our knowledge of wine prices! We just don't see it from their perspective.

As I said up thread, the view from the restaurant crowd on BYO is sadly very very different than what you and I want to believe.

brodie

[GraemeG]

Hi Dave, no I think what the restaurant crowd are saying that if you have an official published BYO policy, you end up with all kinds of crap wines and beer being brought in. Since it makes so little difference to their overall overall bottom line the general attitude appears to be"why bother".

We are all wine nerds and our view of restaurants (and their economics) is heavily coloured by our love of wine- and our knowledge of wine prices! We just don't see it from their perspective.

As I said up thread, the view from the restaurant crowd on BYO is sadly very very different than what you and I want to believe.

brodie

It still doesn't make sense, even financially.
Especially if they aren't officially BYO. Someone rings, says 'hey we'd like to bring a '61 Palmer for our anniversary, we'll pay you $100 bucks as though we were ordering an Oatley cabernet off your list, you keep the Oatley, and serve us the Palmer with your great food.'

"No" says the restaurant, "we don't do BYO".
Throwing away all the margin, and possibly losing the diners too.
And so what if it's only the odd bunch of wine geeks? Does it upset the running of the restaurant so much?
What would they do if they had two people in wheelchairs dining?; that must really play havoc with the seating arrangements.
Yeesh.

This is negotiating over the phone, in advance, not dealing with rubes who've wandered in off the street with yellow tail in a brown bag.
Sorry, I'll stick with the diagnosis of small minds and no imagination!

[sjw_11]

I agree it makes no sense to refuse a request like that.

I think the way to square the circle is to realise that because of the reasons Brodie mentions, the owner/manager sets a policy ("no BYO") and even when you ring in advance you are probably just speaking to a FOH person who is simply enforcing that policy ... hence the importance of the first piece of advice how to make it work:

1. Need to have a personal relationship or connection with the owner or GM - someone with genuine decision making authority.

When I was in Sydney I attended a number of Offlines with the auswine crew and I don't remember really having trouble finding an acceptable place willing to take us, especially with enough notice and perhaps picking a mid week night.

Here in Paris BYO would be an unheard of concept. Wine lists are generally limited albeit often well curated. Prices are high, although the mark ups generally less than in London or Sydney I would estimate. Combined with the repetitive nature of French bistros, and the high quality of the fresh produce available, all of this dramatically increases the chances that for a special dinner we will opt to stay in and open a nice bottle (or two) (even though the size of a Paris apartment does not really lend itself to extravagant dinner parties!).

[phillisc]

Yes Graeme, this is the bit I fail to understand, surely some money, any money is better than no money. A restaurant has the same cost with food, wages, electricity, rent regardless if no bottle, one bottle of wine is sold off the list or a hundred or more is made from byo.
A small fine dining place I frequent, introduced free corkage on Monday nights. Previously Monday nights catered to 10 or so diners...fully booked at 40 punters for next 4 weeks. Go figure!!??
Cheers Craig

[Jimmya]

Hmmmm that 61 palmer sounds good....

[Ian S]

BYO rare over here, but the demand isn't strong for it, so asking can prove successful. Arguably the most uncomfortable part of the discussion is when they say "but what about the wines we list?" which are invariably £4-5 trade cost, marked up to £15-20.

I do get the resistance, that once you open the door to BYO, it's an opportunity for people to argue they're being ripped off by the BYO charge.

Best option is like the one Craig describes above, offering BYO for a modest fee (or even free) on quieter evenings / lunchtimes, whilst sticking rigidly to no BYO on nights that are already busy enough. Levelling out the demand over the week is ideal for most restaurants.

[JamieBahrain]

Next year the inflation genie is supposedly out of the bag and coupled with staff shortages restaurants have been forecast to increase costs of a meal ( and hence the wine list ) significantly. How much is speculation of course but I do wonder if this may drive a counterculture of dining with friends at home.

SJW’s description of Paris is right on the mark in my experience. As a tourist having stayed an aggregate of many months over the years there, the real fun after doing some great restaurants is simply accessing the superb produce with multiple intriguing wines open over many days- and dining in. Not in the same league, I enjoy similar in Australian wine regions and certainly I’ve found Adelaide a fantastic source of boutique local produce making eating out needing to more than a stomach filling experience.

Abstract BYO can be fun. Best example I actually witnessed was when I was an Ansett pilot flying BNE-PER. It must have been near the end when the wine list in Business became as dreary as QF. One punter asked the cabin crew if he could open his own St Henri. We said no it wasn’t permitted. Then discreetly had the crew hand him a souvenir corkscrew with a wink.

[adrianb]

Do you pay corkage if the wine is corked? I’d say yes as it’s taken the sommelier time, glassware, decanter etc. but what does the customer say? What if the pour through the crust? Unable to extract the cork. Insufficiently removed the lead capsule. It’s full of potential problems and slows down service.

Restaurants are an experience / offering. You can’t bring your dry aged grass fed Hereford steak and ask them to cook it instead of their hormone laden feedlot beef and offer to pay the same price.

Having said all that, a wine loving restaurant will accomodate your special bottle or wine club once you have a rapport almost always.

[JamieBahrain]

Fair points Adrian. I prepare my own wine, double-decanted and neutral water rinsed bottle to remove crust from the bottle. Otherwise travel to the restaurant will ruin the wine in some cases. Som’ not required except for a courtesy taste.

Yep I know. Now we are catering for wine extremists. Almost irrelevant to the discussion.

I’d add what about shit wine lists? Italian restaurants notorious for then IMO. No you can’t bring your mature Barolo cause we have perfectly good 18’s on our list!