Intro and question

[AdamR]

Hey everyone,

I have posted on here along time ago. I regularly read. Figured it’s time to post again. I have a cellar that consists Approx 40% Australian Pinot, mostly Yarra. I enjoy long aged pinots and have relatively lots of experience with 20 year plus aussie Pinot. The next 10% consists of red grapes such as Nebbiolo, ximnomavro and a few odds and ends. The other 50% is whites made up of mostly Chardonnay, Riesling, Semillon and semillon sav blanc. I have a small collection of old burgundy, barolos, gattinara, rioja which I have not added to in a while.

That’s me. And now my question.

I have noticed a social trend away from Shiraz in particular. And the concept of big wines. I also notice that with the exception of 2 or 3 people these are the wines most commonly drank. Occasional with the qualifier ‘I don’t like this type of wine much anymore’.

If this is the wine that is most commonly enjoyed here, why not embrace it? Yes Nerello is cool and good Nebbiolo is amazing, but if you like Shiraz from South Aus shout out loud. Each to their own.
*please note, only views of an observer, attempting to open conversation not stir a pot.

[JamieBahrain]

I have noticed a social trend away from Shiraz in particular. And the concept of big wines. I also notice that with the exception of 2 or 3 people these are the wines most commonly drank. Occasional with the qualifier ‘I don’t like this type of wine much anymore’.

I still enjoy classical Australian shiraz very much. When you mention big, I think of the Parker-era, which are not styles I enjoy nor believed cellared well.

Last week I took a few bottles of Old Block ( 95 & 96 ) up to the Barossa and enjoyed them a lot. Old Block was even better a few vintages earlier. So that's what I mean by classical I guess. Balanced shiraz- and I've heard all the arguments of balanced 16.5% shiraz and so it may be on release but rarely in time !

[Ozzie W]

Here's my 2 cents.

This wine hobby of ours is journey. Living in Australia, most people start off with Aussie wines, usually big, fruity Barossa Shiraz. It's readily available, cheap and it appeals to the beginners palate as the flavours are bold. The bigger the better. It certainly was like this for me. I hated Pinot Noir when I started drinking wine. I used to think it was a thin watery thing with little flavour. And this obscure (in an Aussie context) tannic varietal called Nebbiolo... I didn't get it at all.

As you start to analyse what you drink in more detail, over time you learn to pick out the individual flavours and nuances. Your palate matures and over time that thin watery Pinot Noir becomes full of different flavours and subtleties that you couldn't appreciate before. For many the Shiraz they used to love becomes overpowering and/or less interesting and they no longer enjoy it like they used to. That's what happened to me. For others, they continue to enjoy Shiraz as much as ever, perhaps in a different style, whether they like other varietals or not. There's no wrong or right here. Everyone is an individual and takes a different path on their wine journey. In a way, I'm jealous of those who continue to love Shiraz.

The journey for some, including myself, progresses to the old world. The 4 B's seem a common path -- Bordeaux, Barolo, Brunello and Burgundy. For me, it was also Etna. I still drink Shiraz from time-to-time as I have a lot in my cellar, but when I do I am reminded why I love the other lighter varietals so much more.

I don't think there's a "social trend away from Shiraz", as you put it. It's still the biggest seller in Australia. It's just a path that one crosses on their wine journey, along the way to other paths.

[Hacker]

Shiraz holds a valued position in my cellar. So does pinot, as does cab and cab blends. As does neb. Sure, my journey has partially moved from shiraz as favourite grape, but I still hang out for shiraz quite often. As Campbell Mattinson wrote about wine cellar journeys, you need light and shade in your cellar because your mood (for wine) may be different at certain times. And it is great when you can grab a wine of any description from a varied cellar. So don't give up on a variety, because each one is lovely when you choose a bottle, and you will be happy you didn't clear out the shiraz (or other variety) stash you carefully cellared in a previous evolutionary wine period of your life.

[Mike Hawkins]

I have noticed a social trend away from Shiraz in particular. And the concept of big wines. I also notice that with the exception of 2 or 3 people these are the wines most commonly drank. Occasional with the qualifier ‘I don’t like this type of wine much anymore’.

I still enjoy classical Australian shiraz very much. When you mention big, I think of the Parker-era, which are not styles I enjoy nor believed cellared well.

Last week I took a few bottles of Old Block ( 95 & 96 ) up to the Barossa and enjoyed them a lot. Old Block was even better a few vintages earlier. So that's what I mean by classical I guess. Balanced shiraz- and I've heard all the arguments of balanced 16.5% shiraz and so it may be on release but rarely in time !

To your point, I had 90 and 91 Old Block a couple of months ago and they were excellent.

[Waiters Friend]

Hi AdamR, and welcome back to posting on this forum.

In my cellar, shiraz makes up about 20% of the roughly 2,500 bottles, and almost all of it is Australian. A lot of it is not Barossa, however, which seems to be the 'big' style that people refer to. It doesn't mean I dislike Barossa shiraz, just I cast my net a little wider. ties

There's certain shiraz wines I buy year after year, regardless of other varieties that I purchase, and that's keeping the percentage up a bit. Part of the reason for this is I like to give them 5-10 years before opening, which means a large rotation cycle (buying young, drinking later). Shiraz will probably always be a significant component of my cellar as a result (and it's my partner's favourite red wine - a not insignificant factor!).

The cellar has (and continues to) modify over time. A couple of previous posters have suggested going through phases in the development of their wine tastes, and I'm no exception. What ends up in the cellar is a reflection of evolving tastes.

Perhaps the move away from 'big' styles is a reflection of developing tastes for many of the people on this forum. I think it is also a function of age - I have observed among older friends that they are tending towards lower tannins and more elegant reds.

This may be a long-winded answer to your post, but I think it's important to recognise many factors in wine tastes.

Cheers
Allan

[Ian S]

Hi Adam
I think I believed the Aussie critics a little too much when I started, with their fulsome praise of South Australian hot climate Shiraz. I suppose Penfolds Grange also shoulders some responsibility, as the icon wine of Australia has many trying to emulate it.

I still have some in the cellar, but 2004 is the most recent vintage of South Australian Shiraz I have and I'm unlikely to add to it unless I taste something that changes my mind. Will I enjoy what I have? Probably. There are occasions where it will suit the mood, though these moments are relatively rare.

Other Aussie Shiraz still appeals e.g. Bests, Craiglee and a few from the Hunter Valley, plus others in cooler locations. Oddly I've been disappointed with NZ syrah/shiraz to date, but it's still relatively early days there.

Nebbiolo is a big favourite and I'm glad you've got some older wines including Gattinara. Old wines are very much my thing, and whilst failures are to be expected, the successes are worth it to me. I'm still yet to try a xinomavro, but really do need to change this. I think I got a little distracted into exploring Portuguese wines.

I agree with your statement about "if you like Shiraz from South Australia, shout it loud". I don't, but absolutely respect the importance of people shouting about what excites them and sod whatever 'fashion' or 'trend' wishes to dictate. For me it's likely to be obscure Piemontese grapes!

Regards
Ian

[AdamR]

Thank you for some interesting points of conversation. As mentioned I’m not invested in a particular outcome of people’s tastes. I like what I do and purchase based on my likes and my risk scales. For example I do really like some cab merlot blends such as Picardy’s. However for me to find one I really like requires the likelihood of buying many I don’t or doing a lot of reading, so I stay with pinots which I have done that for. Same with Nebbiolo, the best wines I have ever had are old Nebbiolo, but I’ve found I don’t like many young ones and am not in a position to buy older ones anymore (and the market has shifted).

I am glad for the thoughtfulness of responses and am glad they came from many of the more influential people. I guess my aim was to open a conversation on a trend I see. And I like comments such as Ozzie’s ‘no right or wrong here’, Ian’s agreeable on like what you like and be proud, or Hackers on light and shade or Jamie whom I think promotes well his interests in varied wines well. Hopefully the conversation will enable more people to feel comfortable with what they enjoy.

[JamieBahrain]

I have to query perceptions from Ian and others on "big SA wines " ?

It's hard to define, but what of classical styles of Barossa shiraz? I just don't see a 20 year old Barossa classic as being a big wine? Is mature Grange a "big wine " ?

I often have my mature SA classics with friends who may be presenting mature First Growths, Super Tuscans etc and nobody says wow thats a big Aussie wine! At the an annual dinner a few weeks ago I presented a 99 Wendouree over six bottles against mature and lauded Burgundy, Barolo, Bordeaux, Rioja ( Roty GV 1er 99, Aldo Conterno Cicala 99, Pichon Baron 89, Artadi El Pison 99 ) - nobody said it a big wine and I meant to post elsewhere, but it was up amongst the best wines of the night from many who hate "big Aussie wines " .

OK, moving into the late 90's and yep, here come the bruisers- high alcohol, ripeness and low acidity- even Rockford fell for it for a short period drifting from their more classical style of sorts.

[Polymer]

Wendouree isn't a big wine...It has big acid and tannins and overall structure, but it isn't overripe or high in alcohol or overoaked...I don't think I've presented Wendouree to anyone overseas that thought it was a big wine or typical Australian.

You look at SA today....the wines are no longer 16, 17%..but they're relatively big...Still a ton of oak...still very ripe although better than before...and they're in the 15% range..probably due to reverse osmosis more than anything else...

I definitely think they've toned things down a bit..but they're still pretty ripe...and oaky....and have a lot of fruit sweetness (sometimes even some RS although fairly low). This is in contrast to big old world wines that have big tannins but tend to be a bit more savory and earthy...

[JamieBahrain]

Let's not get locked onto Wendouree. It was just a most recent example and my dismay at "big SA reds "comments.

Over the last year or so I've presented mature SA shiraz that nobody perceived as being big or jammy. Is it because they were mature ( say 15 years + )

Examples being Jim Barry Armagh, St Henri, Grange, Henschke, Rockford all over extensive verticals or stand-alones, often in the same line up as some the most lauded wines of the Old World.

[mychurch]

A glass of a big red every now and again is fine, but it’s not a wine style I would want to drink by the bottle.

Always amazed at the amount of red meat that is eaten here, and I think that the big red can go well with a big steak, as long as there is enough acidity in the wine, even if the alcohol is high.

Long term, with summers getting warmer and longer and beef being seen as a contributor to global warming, I reckon less of the red stuff (cow and wine) will be produced and consumed. Of course it could be that China laps up everything and we go on producing both, but for me light, slightly chilled, juicy and crunchy reds would be the ones I would maybe buy - I’d really rather stick to white.

[Ozzie W]

For me, the alcohol content is a key variable to how "big" a wine is. Back in the 1980's the average ABV for an Aussie red was around 12.5%. Now it's closer to 15%. The preference over time for riper grapes, has resulted in more intense fruit flavours, not just increased ABV. I do enjoy many of the older Barossa classics, but I think this is because the ABV is lower, not just bottle age.

[RogerPike]

I get a little annoyed at the use of the term “SA Shiraz” as a generic pejorative term meaning overripe, sweet, high alcohol, low acid, blowsy, porty and structureless wines.

Sure, there are some, OK there are quite a lot. I won’t name names. I find them undrinkable, but they are not making wines for me, they are making wines for people that enjoy that style of wine.

There are dozens of winemakers from every SA region making complex, vibrant and structured Shiraz, many of which will cellar and develop for 20, 30 or more years.

I even like to think that I am one of them, but I am not defending myself here I am just railing against the indiscriminate use of the term. I expect to continue being annoyed though, that term and that meaning is so entrenched.

Roger

[Polymer]

I think it is just a generalization...a lot of the younger generation of winemakers in Australia..including a lot in SA, are really mixing things up and that's great...

But I will also say, even the structured wines that can cellar....can be quite big, overripe and overoaked...That's the market they're going after.

Also, if you grow up in the region and are used to making wines in that style or drinking wines of that style..what you consider ripe is probably influenced by that...

We're all going to have different opinions about what wines are too big...overoaked, etc...but I think we all agree the wines have gotten better and are less extreme than they used to be..and there are more winemakers trying different things and making a different style of wine now than there used to be...

[Ian S]

I have to query perceptions from Ian and others on "big SA wines " ?

It's hard to define, but what of classical styles of Barossa shiraz? I just don't see a 20 year old Barossa classic as being a big wine? Is mature Grange a "big wine " ?

Hi Jamie
For my palate, and against the other (non-Australian) wines I drink, then yes I find them big wines, or in old fashioned parlance full or medium-full bodied. Not that they can't be enjoyable, complex etc.
Regards
Ian

[Ian S]

I get a little annoyed at the use of the term “SA Shiraz” as a generic pejorative term meaning overripe, sweet, high alcohol, low acid, blowsy, porty and structureless wines.

No-one here said that, nor anything close to it.

[Ian S]

For me, the alcohol content is a key variable to how "big" a wine is. Back in the 1980's the average ABV for an Aussie red was around 12.5%. Now it's closer to 15%. The preference over time for riper grapes, has resulted in more intense fruit flavours, not just increased ABV. I do enjoy many of the older Barossa classics, but I think this is because the ABV is lower, not just bottle age.

FWIW I've seen the trend move back again in recent years, and there are now some wines back down at the 12-13% level and clearly that's a very intentional move for those wines.

I'm hoping some other classic regions of Europe catch onto this way of thinking. Some have pursued accessibility, tannin maturity, phenolic ripeness to the point that they have moved from medium bodied into full bodied and from an average of 13% to 14 or 15%. Jamie's comment about Barossa Reds not sticking out may say more about the other wines, than the Barossa wines.

[JamieBahrain]

Hi Jamie
For my palate, and against the other (non-Australian) wines I drink, then yes I find them big wines, or in old fashioned parlance full or medium-full bodied. Not that they can't be enjoyable, complex etc.
Regards
Ian

OK, just haven't seen the ones I've presented described as "big" amongst broad old world drinkers- sure, there's an inclination or bias beforehand to describe SA shiraz this way but generally not after. And we are talking of mature and more classical SA shiraz from perhaps a bygone era.

Mature South Australian shiraz can sit below some old world styles too- seen this with Italian ST's ( even in the 90's ) and Amarone and even comfortably on par with some BDX.

If you are going to describe SA shiraz as hot climate, not sure how you can get away with old fashioned parlance? Perhaps medium bodied, full bodied, new wave- ripe, new wave-turbocharged?

[Michael McNally]

I expect to continue being annoyed though.......

Roger

I would be disappointed in anything less Roger!

On the topic of "Shiraz", which is a ridiculous generalisation even at a State or Region level. The general malignment and implied snobbery of some who say "yes, your journey will start with Shraz, but will end up with Burgundy" gives me the $hitS. (IMPORTANT NOTE - not attributing that sentiment to any of the posters on this thread).

Yes people's palates will change with age and as they experience new, different varietals and regions therefrom. Mine have. I now buy more Cabernet and Grenache and Pinot than when I started out. However, to suggest that there is an ideal or best or cultured progression of a palate is patronising.

There is plenty of dross produced in all varietals. I have tried some truly debilitating (yes, that word) Pinot Noir, and don't get me started on poorly made "other varietals".

Also, not everyone will be able to afford the "good stuff", particularly the OS stuff here in Australia.

Three cases in point over the last couple of weeks:
2007 Seppelts St Peters Shiraz - this was fantastic, integrated and no fruit bomb. The tannin was noteable for its finess and persistence.
2008 Turkey Flat Shiraz - Just entering its window. The fruit probably was the highlight of this but also the balance. This will be long lived and will just keep getting better
2006 Marius Symposium - Everything in its right place. Just shy of full bodied. Hints of oak and vanilla still circling the plump fruit, moreish acid and reolved tannin - I think 'elegant' would best describe this wine and disappointed I only have one more.

Some Shiraz is brilliant. To generalise to this extent about wine (as in all walks of life) is silly.

Cheers

Michael

[JamieBahrain]

Oh yes - the all roads lead to Burgundy nonsense. Believe this rubbish at your financial peril and it’s a consumer snobbery that has let this region get away with blue murder ( premox , dreary or poor oak usage, unaccountable pricing etc )

[sjw_11]

Over Christmas I happened to share both a Killikanoon Oracle 2004 and a Bollinger Cote aux Enfant Champenois 2003.

The former of course a single vineyard Shiraz from Clare and the latter a very rare expression of (flat) Pinot Noir from a historically important vineyard in the commune of Aÿ in Champagne. The Oracle (current vintage) retails for AU$96, and the Bollinger is about 70% more (I paid €99).

I have to say my overwhelming take away was if all roads lead to Pinot Noir I must be on the road less travelled! While I didn't take formal notes of either, the Oracle was a marvelous benchmark of Clare Shiraz with lovely plummy fruit and not at all "big" although clearly a ripe, medium bodied red. The Bollinger was light, with bright cherry and a slightly angular presentation. I thought it might need more time, while my friend argued it was time to drink up. Adjusted for value for money there is no debate which one I would go for.

[sjw_11]

And yes I know Champagne isn't Burgundy but their marketing pitch is that this used to be the highest rated Pinot preferred by the French court over Burgundy blah blah blah so I believe it can be a relevant example anyway!

[Ian S]

Hi Michael
Always vital that people are led by their own palate, not by over-confident critics, nor social pressure. Remembering to taste beyond our current interests, but not losing sight of them. In time that tasting may well lead to other directions.

Australia was the first wine country I explored, fuelled by the wonderful retail chain Oddbins (very much in their heydey at the time), plus the brilliant enthusiasm and professionalism at the Australian Wine Bureau.

These wines initially sparked my interest with intensity of flavour, but there was much more to discover. In time NZ joined in, then Italy (which remains my number 1 interest). Germany has always had a little representation (riesling, and more recently spatburgunder/pinot noir, with occasional other stuff like auslese sylvaner). Spain has had similar presence, but until I discovered Bierzo, I never really pushed on past Rioja, not caring for Piorat and other hot climate wines enjoyed by Parker et al. Portugal is a more recent discovery and together with Italy, has been the focus of recent buying. France has a good presence, and I like having a variety on hand, from Pouilly-Fuisse to Bordeaux, Loire chenin blanc and more recently Cabernet Franc. Lots of dabbling elsewhere, but never going mad for any region. Ch Musar has been there all along, but it took me a while to discover their Blanc.

Australia did get sidelined, partially with a big move in exchange rates, partially the AWB finishing and partially the lack of good retail champions (Oddbins has been through many failed ownerships and now exists in name but not spirity). I will still seek cooler climate shiraz as that's more to my tastes / more likely to 'hit the dinner table', but rather than it being the key red varietal that production and critics suggest, it's of less interest to me. Throw in some Mourvedre, or plant it in the Hunter Valley, so some leatheriness is introduced, and my interest rises. Heretical talk here I know, but a little brett is almost always a positive for me, and I'd enjoy such wines that many here would pour down the sink in disgust.

So my palate doesn't much care for full-bodied shiraz, but I'd in no way criticise others for their love of it. We all have a vinous journey and the paths will differ. It is often said "all roads lead to Burgundy". That is wrong. All roads lead away from Burgundy, but some people travel in the wrong direction

Regards
Ian

[Polymer]

Oh yes - the all roads lead to Burgundy nonsense. Believe this rubbish at your financial peril and it’s a consumer snobbery that has let this region get away with blue murder ( premox , dreary or poor oak usage, unaccountable pricing etc )

Its only rubbish to people whose journey hasn't taken them there...and there's nothing wrong with that..

Premox is definitely an issue..although they're actively trying to fix the problem...Seeing a lot of these producers go to the super big/long Diams is a nice change....

Oak usage - Depends on the producer. I don't see how consumer snobbery has driven this other than maybe a winemaker perceives that the market wants more oak...but I tend to see that as already their style with their set of consumers...because you have a whole slew of other Burg drinkers that don't want this at all...

Unaccountable pricing....I don't know what you mean by that given that the pricing for Burgundy is because resale and market demand....Getting them from the Domaine is super cheap if you can manage to get an allocation.

I do think quite a number of people's palates tend to evolve...not necessarily to Burgundy (for many reasons, but mainly $) but to something where you want the intensity, but not the weight or alcohol...You don't want the oak getting in the way of the wine...You are looking more for acidity to keep it fresh...You also see people just looking for something different. And of course there are many people that don't ever go through this type of change and that's probably the most ideal situation because you don't have to worry about having a bunch of wine you no longer want to drink.

[Michael R]

I’d agree with this.

One thing I would add is most references to Burgundy on forums tend to assume it’s red. That is a major mistake as in my opinion the best, most consistent wine from Burgundy is white... Premox issues noted.

[Michael R]

Sorry for the thread drift Adam.
I’ve been drinking Zalto for years, and I really like the Zalto Uni for Champagne now, prefer it to the actual Zalto champers glass.
I haven’t tried the GG yet, but I’ve heard enough from other to know they are extremely good.
I’m a Chardonnay focussed Drinker and the Zalto unis are very good.
I agree with Polymer that the alcohol sticks out on bigger wines, but I honestly recommend you but Zalto Unis, they are amazing and very versatile.

More importantly, I love that you’ve taken stemware seriously enough to post here, you are among (tragic) friends!!

Happy new year!

[Chuck]

Big but not super big SA shiraz are enjoyable with the right food - hearty (steak, roasts etc) and definitely in the cooler months. Can't beat it. Big shiraz in summer is not much fun although turning the ac down to below 21C, dressing to suit and pretending it's winter can be fun. The wine needs to be chilled down to say 14C as well.

[via collins]

This is such a great point.

Always amazed at the amount of red meat that is eaten here, and I think that the big red can go well with a big steak, as long as there is enough acidity in the wine, even if the alcohol is high.

Long term, with summers getting warmer and longer and beef being seen as a contributor to global warming, I reckon less of the red stuff (cow and wine) will be produced and consumed. Of course it could be that China laps up everything and we go on producing both, but for me light, slightly chilled, juicy and crunchy reds would be the ones I would maybe buy - I’d really rather stick to white.

Following on from Ozzie's apt description of our wine enjoyment being a journey, I've travelled from being a "red only" wine drinker to an appreciator of an increasing range of whites and lighter reds that can be chilled as our climate changes, and the family became vegetarian.

This has led me down fantastic pathways I'd not have discovered otherwise, and while i do love a denser red now and then, and an excellent steak, you are right I believe Mychurch - things are changing through necessity and natural intervention.

[JamieBahrain]

Its only rubbish to people whose journey hasn't taken them there...and there's nothing wrong with that..

I think you're way out of context in your response here. I'm not interested in a long and continual debate, in an off the cuff post supporting Michael's contempt for wine snobbery and a dismissal of SA shiraz. Perhaps re-read the context?

I'm not sure of your level of exposure to Burgundy. I consider mine broad, seeing many dozens of wines each month. My access to Burgundy wines could easily be unfettered if I was so interested.

Some of your comments I can't let past.

Yes, premox is an issue and response has been slow. Ever taken a Montrachet back for refund over premox? You won't get one in many cases. You wouldn't get away with this in Australia, with Aussie wines- in Burgundy it is facilitated by consumer snobbery. We don't know if premox has been addressed yet and I find your faith in long corks and diam premature.

Oak usage. Yep.. there's plenty of big SA bruisers who misuse oak but guess what? I see obtrusive oak in young, adolescent and mature Burgundy all the time. My reference to snobbery here is that both SA shiraz producers and Burgundy produce wines with clumsy oak usage- Burgundy gets away with it. And the oak is usage is as dreary as a bad SA shiraz from the many average Burgundy producers in my experience.

Burgundy is the most arrogant wine region in the world. Pricing is unaccountable because you can have a premoxed $1000 USD wine and its typical for the wine not to be refunded. You can have a corked $1000 USD wine and try getting a refund from Rousseau and others. I see this consumer snobbery every week! Old World drinkers accept taint and premox in Burgundy as a matter of course. Producers have been slow to address faults within their region in no small part due many Burgundy drinkers being snobs.

Now, to address any moral lashings on that lovely notion of a wine journey, I love a great bottle of Burgundy and I'm fortunate to experience this often, thanks to passionate Burgundy loving friends. Many of whom are high end collectors, in the trade directly or through auction houses or are wine critics.

Burgundy is also loaded with snobbery. From ultra rich collectors who will show you their perhaps tens of millions of dollar collections on their iphone data base, instagram generation who just want to post a snap with a famous bottle or even the frauds who claim to drink the stuff and don't- there's so much information and notes on the net this fraud is deeper than many suspect in my view and experience.