Cruel cruel Langtons......

[Manno]

Ok, so this is just a bit of a rant/sob. Something i need to do to get it off my chest. With a bit of luck itll help me heal and I can move on.

In my original thread i mention a 2005 Alices shiraz from Greenock Creek wines. A wine i absolutey loved. Ever since then ive been searching Langtons for some more. Probably not religiously and chances are ive missed some in the past few years but FINALLY a couple of weeks back a massive vendor lot of Greenock Creek wines were listed. And amoungst it. 2 x 6 bottle lots of the 2005 Alices!!!! The Joy!!

So i watched the auction all week impatiently waiting for 7pm sunday.

When... the unthinkable happened. The site froze for me in the last 10 minutes and i was not even able to load the page to bid.

I cant explain the gut wrenching helplessness i felt trying in vain first on my smart phone, then the Mac, then without wifi, with wifi, 4G. NOTHING! All as i slowly watched the time reach and pass 7:00pm. It was like a bad dream

I realise its “just wine” but this was the one id been waiting for. And now.... its gone.

I know these wines arent so popular with forum members but i hope you can empathise with a fellow wine enthusiast whos heart was cruely broken (imagine it was your favourite!!). Langtons know about the problem, apparently the internal server had issues from 6:52-7:20. Great.........

Not sure i feel any better but thanks for listening.

[Con J]

I think I've posted before that I haven't used Langton's since about 2006 for different reasons.

Cheers Con.

[Manno]

Hi Con. Im sure theres a variety of reasons not to use Langtons. I didn't really have a choice. Though the choice ended up being made for me. Ha!

[Con J]

Still I think it's a piss poor reason by Langton's.

I would hate to have been a vendor at this auction.
There's a good chance a lot of wine would have ended selling for more in the last 8 minutes.

Cheers Con.

[Stomper]

I would have thought Langton's would be obliged to nullify all bids and cancel the auction. As a vendor or prospective buyer I would be extremely unhappy if it was me.

Con, you have my condolences.

Cheers

[felixp21]

without in any way trying to sound mean, if you loved that wine so much, why wait for the last 10 minutes?
you "dream wine" is worth an early bid, I would have thought.
if it was me, I'd just plug in the top price I would be willing to pay when the auction is first listed, and then forget about it. Can't understand these people who sit by their computer with 3 minutes to go and bid frantically hoping to save $2.

the Langton's system allows you to input your top bid, and purchase the lot at the best available price below or at that. Like Ticketek down here in Victoria, most Australian systems crash when placed under maximum stress, so simply avoid it.

[GraemeG]

I'm with Felix. On-line auction is very different to standing in the street bidding on a house.
It's not like your highest bid is what you're going to pay if you're the only bidder.
If there's no way you'll spend over $90, bid $90 a week ahead.
You may hold the high bid at $63, then $75, then finally get the wine for $82.
Or miss out because the bidding went past $90.
Seems pretty simple to me. With on0line, I don't see any strategic advantage in bidding at the last minute.
Graeme

[Ozzie W]

With on0line, I don't see any strategic advantage in bidding at the last minute.

I think the logic behind last minute bidding is as follows:
- It avoids a potential bidding war which lowers the final price.
- It increases chances of winning the auction because it doesn't leave other bidders enough time to respond.
- It avoids information discovery, i.e. an inexperienced bidder could use bidding information to revise their willingness to pay more.

[Polymer]

There is definitely an advantage in bidding at the last minute for all of the reasons Ozzie listed...

People get into bidding wars because they get obsessed with "winning".
People don't always bid the max they're willing to spend...psychologically it is difficult for some people to do that so they don't..and when they get outbid they'll often increase their max bid..or mentally convince themselves that they should've put in a higher bid...not giving them time to do that is a benefit...

But if you really want a wine...as others stated, the easiest and most relaxing way to do it is..just put in your max bid..what you'd absolutely be willing to pay..and let it go from there..But it isn't the optimal strategy - it is if EVERYONE put in their max bid (as in everyone behaves rationally)..but because of all the reasons Ozzie listed, it is still better to wait if you can...

[Bobthebuilder]

Also, you might put in your max bid on a lot that goes way higher than another lot for a lesser price
This is not a rare occurrence and the only way to play this is to be bidding in the final minutes

[Bobthebuilder]

Also, you might put in your max bid on a lot that goes way higher than another lot for a lesser price
This is not a rare occurrence and the only way to play this is to be bidding in the final minutes

[Manno]

You’re a compassionate lot....

Not quite the intended theme of the thread but i acknowledge the points made. As ozzie, bob and polymer state, of course there are advantages to bidding towards the close of an auction. But yes, obviously theres one very risky disadvantage, that i experienced the moment the site failed to load. Something id not encountered before though, so i was unprepared. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. And the second i realised that the site was down i rued not bidding earlier. Nothing revelatory there. Im not sure the image of frantically bidding to save $2 accurately represents the process or the outcome im used to, nor did i mention that Alices was my “dream wine”. Wouldnt that be nice, a $35 wine being your dream drop..... so even though its probably nothing special. It still hurts! It might be a harsh lesson, but not mean felix. A little cold maybe but thats ok.

Anyway. Lesson learned. Thanks to those that reached out with offers of help and advice. Its much appreciated.

As a follow up with Langtons. Apparently they were inundated with calls/emails from similarly disgruntled bidders. But very few if any from vendors. Weird.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Well, I'm sympathetic Manno because I presume something like that must have happened to me when I was bidding at a different auction site. I seemed to have the bottle I really wanted well in hand with what seemed to be a comfortable margin. Despite tracking my bids near the deadline it was only after the auction closed did I discover that I wasn't successful. I now suspect that while the site was supposed to update itself and had been doing so, in the last few minutes the site must have frozen so when I checked the tab I was really looking at the frozen image, thereby thinking I still had the highest bid with room to spare.

The result was I lost the very bottle that prompted me to join the auction and bid.

Mahmoud.

[Ozzie W]

As a follow up with Langtons. Apparently they were inundated with calls/emails from similarly disgruntled bidders. But very few if any from vendors. Weird.

Vendors would be unaware there was a problem, unless they were buying as well as selling.

[Con J]

As a follow up with Langtons. Apparently they were inundated with calls/emails from similarly disgruntled bidders. But very few if any from vendors. Weird.

Vendors would be unaware there was a problem, unless they were buying as well as selling.

I think your right Ozzie, vendors wouldn't have a clue about the problem.

Either it got the reserve price and sold or it's going up at the next auction.

Cheers Con.

[Polymer]

There's always another bottle...It'll come up again..

[Rocky]

My gripe is not with the bidding but the fact that probably 50% of my purchases are heat damaged. Annoying to think that there must be a % of people knowingly dumping high probability heat tainted bottles onto the secondary market.

[Polymer]

I haven't had that issue with Langtons..but it depends on what you're looking for I guess.

I'd not get any big house champagne that is popular...I'd not get any Grange or similar...

Basically, I'd avoid anything the general public is likely to buy...

I also don't think people are purposely putting wine on Langtons they know is bad....what is more likely is they've just been stored improperly which is why I would avoid wine that the general public would buy.

By far, the wine on Langtons (or other AU Auctions) seems to be in better shape than those making it to auction in other countries....Wickmans does a good job of checking provenance...

[Bobthebuilder]

There's always another bottle...It'll come up again..

Particularly with that wine
As the old saying goes, all roads lead,.....
Hence there is always a lot of those big reds coming up
Hopefully you buy and enjoy then before you head down that road!

[Manno]

There's always another bottle...It'll come up again..

Particularly with that wine
As the old saying goes, all roads lead,.....
Hence there is always a lot of those big reds coming up
Hopefully you buy and enjoy then before you head down that road!

Which old saying is that Bob?

All roads lead to....finding myself involuntarily single?



Couldnt afford the maintenance payments let alone the wine....

[Ian S]

- It increases chances of winning the auction because it doesn't leave other bidders enough time to respond.

Indeed - this was rather what happened, but in reverse!

[Ian S]

There's always another bottle...It'll come up again..

Particularly with that wine
As the old saying goes, all roads lead,.....
Hence there is always a lot of those big reds coming up
Hopefully you buy and enjoy then before you head down that road!

Which old saying is that Bob?

It's a commonly held misconception - that all roads lead to Burgundy

That's incorrect. All roads lead away from Burgundy, it's just some poor souls travel in the wrong direction.

[Chuck]

My gripe is not with the bidding but the fact that probably 50% of my purchases are heat damaged. Annoying to think that there must be a % of people knowingly dumping high probability heat tainted bottles onto the secondary market.

This begs the question of how much wine is stored in less than satisfactory conditions. I'd say many on this forum have good storage be it on site or off but the bulk of OZ storage may be pretty ordinary. How much wine stored in a wine rack in the lounge room gets to auction? Judging by Rocky's note I'd say a fair bit. Screw caps compound the issue as they don't leak under heat stress. An online auction house here in Adelaide displays a "P" for provenance next to auction lots where provenance is known. Not a perfect system but a reliable guide particularly for older wines. Much of Adelaide's private wine storage is in passive underground bunkers which are very common in the old houses and while not as good as temperature controlled It's certainly better than the average home storage on the east coast.

I feel a new thread coming on.

Carl

[GraemeG]

With on0line, I don't see any strategic advantage in bidding at the last minute.

I think the logic behind last minute bidding is as follows:
- It avoids a potential bidding war which lowers the final price.
- It increases chances of winning the auction because it doesn't leave other bidders enough time to respond.
- It avoids information discovery, i.e. an inexperienced bidder could use bidding information to revise their willingness to pay more.

I keep running these through my head and I still don't get it. They all seem to be predicated on the fact that no-one is bidding the final price they're actually prepared to pay. As opposed to a live real estate auction, where you WILL pay what you bid. (Yes, I understand why you might bid late there.)
If I'm prepared to pay 100, you're only prepared to pay 90, but the bid is sitting at 40, then is the assumption that neither of us will actually bid what we're prepared to pay? Presumably the scenario is that we both sit there watching til the end, and one of us can bid 41 at the last minute, and get the wine ahead of the other? So the one who misses out is a dope for not bidding their high price early. If they really want the wine. If you really want it, bid what you're prepared to pay.
After all, if I'm the only one prepared to pay $100, which I bid, I might still get it for 41 if no-one else is interested. Bidding 100 just means I don't miss out on something I wanted below that price. I still might get it for 41, 60, 80. I'm much better off than bidding 44 in the hope that I can outbid someone else (whose high price I don't know), but running the very real risk of losing the wine to someone whose top price was only 90, for instance.
Especially if you're trying to follow more than one lot.
Thing is, do you want the wine or not? Pick a price and stick to it. No regrets that way.
Graeme

[Mahmoud Ali]

Graeme,

I think you are close to the mark in what you say but based on what I've read so far, and what I may have experienced, the scenario you posited plays out like this:

- A handfull of people are willing to pay up to $100 for the wine in question.
- They all sit and wait at the $40 level.
- With a couple of minutes to go they all start bidding.
- With the incremantal bids at a dollar or two it never reaches the high mark before the the deadline.
- The person with the last bid, or the one able to secure a bid before the website freezes, wins.

Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

Graeme,

That's just it...People don't always put their absolute Max bid in.... Some do, some don't...but in leaving it until the last minute, you're not giving those people that didn't a chance to change their mind.

So while you might think it is backwards (bidding at the last minute), what you're saying only nullifies last minute bidding if all people behave in the optimal way, which is they bid and ONLY bid their absolute max bid...It then makes sniping useless...

There are also the oddball cases where one lot of the same wine goes for a lot more than another one...and bidding at the last minute a bit of that...sort of...but this depends on many different factors...Obviously the more lots at the same time, the more there will be variance as people won't be putting in a max bid on all and people can't try to snipe all at the absolute last minute either unless they're ok with getting more wine than expected...

As far as getting the best price for a lot is concerned, there are no disadvantages to bidding at the last minute....
But in doing so, you have to be on during that time (which isn't convenient), you also risk not having bid at all...So there is a soft cost to doing it this way....Not sure if they still allow sniping software for ebay but this practice is so popular you can get a service that does this for you...but it stems from the fact that people still do not bid their max (Their max isn't always their max..if that makes sense).

[Mahmoud Ali]

Maybe my post wasn't entirely clear but Graeme is right. Regardless of what other people want to do, bid your $100 and let the others wait until the last minute and risk losing out for whatever reason. In the end your $100 bid will insure that while the other mugs struggle desperately to get be the last bidder under the wire, yours will be the winning bid.

Mahmoud.

[Diddy]

Maybe my post wasn't entirely clear but Graeme is right. Regardless of what other people want to do, bid your $100 and let the others wait until the last minute and risk losing out for whatever reason. In the end your $100 bid will insure that while the other mugs struggle desperately to get be the last bidder under the wire, yours will be the winning bid.

Mahmoud.

Until someone trumps you at $101, then being the wine tragics we are, you decide $100 wasn't actually your limit, so you'll go to $102 and so forth...

I've actually found that putting your max bid in only really works if you do it in the last 30 seconds or so of the auction (i.e. sniping).

That way the auction auto-bid will be quicker than your opponent who's also trying to snipe you, resulting in a greater chance of success.

[Mahmoud Ali]

However, as already mentioned by the origional poster, and apparently with my experience, a frozen website that doesn't load or update in the dying minutes means that one may not be able to do what you call "sniping". I should think a sober maximum bid comfortably set well in advance is better than trying to put it in place at the last minute. Also, in case your maximum bid is superceded you still have a chance at sniping should you get the opportunity.

Better to have a reasonale maximum bid exceeded than to fail to get one in place at the last minute. And if a person is really desperate win that bottle then throw cautiontion to the wind and bid $200 for that $100 bottle. That way you win the auction and only have to pay a dollar more than the person who was madly sniping away during the last mew minutes. You get to sip on glass of wine watching the bids creep up while others are pounding away at their keyboard to no effect.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

[Ozzie W]

However, as already mentioned by the origional poster, and apparently with my experience, a frozen website that doesn't load or update in the dying minutes means that one may not be able to do what you call "sniping". I should think a sober maximum bid comfortably set well in advance is better than trying to put it in place at the last minute. Also, in case your maximum bid is superceded you still have a chance at sniping should you get the opportunity.

Better to have a reasonale maximum bid exceeded than to fail to get one in place at the last minute. And if a person is really desperate win that bottle then throw cautiontion to the wind and bid $200 for that $100 bottle. That way you win the auction and only have to pay a dollar more than the person who was madly sniping away during the last mew minutes. You get to sip on glass of wine watching the bids creep up while others are pounding away at their keyboard to no effect.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

There's no wrong or right answer here. It all depends on what you're trying to achieve. If your strategy is to maximise chances of winning, then your approach is good. It eliminates risk of a website or Internet outage. However, if your strategy is to win at the lowest price, with a risk of missing out due to outage or not bidding high enough, then sniping has a lot of merit. There's been quite a lot of research done on sniping in the context of Ebay and it's been shown to be an effective strategy in many situations.