wine tour out of melbourne and or sydney

[quietdesperation]

Hi,

we'll be in melbourne for the open followed by a week in sydney. Rather than renting a car and having to drive on the wrong side of the road [ha!] , thought it would be safer for all involved to join a wine tour. Yarra Valley Wine Tours had good online reviews but I'm a little reluctant as I've never seen a wine tour vehicle pull up to a winery that I've visited. However, I've passed a lot of them at wineries that I'd never want to visit.

this particular tour visits a subset of these wineries: Greenstone, Helen and Joeys, Yarrawood, Corniola, Kellybrook, Rob Dolan Winery, Are these wineries worth visiting? If not, could someone suggest another tour? Alternatively, would we better off striking out for a Hunter Valley tour during the sydney visit?

My other question is what wines should we look to try in sydney and melbourne that we won't be able to find in nyc? I know, tough question unless I detail what's found in nyc, maybe it would be better to say we love more restrained shiraz (frankland isolation ridge comes to mind) but really any well-made, small production wine would be fun to try.

thanks for your help!

[Mahmoud Ali]

From what I recall of my visits to wineries in Australia is that the smaller, and better, wineries do not host wine tours. I'd stay away from them. As for the wineries you've listed, I've not heard of them, although to be fair I've not been to the Yarra Valley.

Whether in Sydney or Melbourne, drink Hunter Valley shiraz. Others will chime in with their suggestions.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

[via collins]

Yarra Valley is absolutely fine, but I would recommend Mornington Peninsula as a better option. Especially for the time of year - being besides the stunning seaside while spoilt for excellent wines - hard to do better.

And it occurs to me that a really excellent touring option exists that could be right up your alley. In full disclosure, the owner is a friend of mine, but the reviews on Trip Advisor pretty well sum up what he offers -[url]https://www.mpplunge.com.au/[/url]

The owner knows the area well, and has a mixture of options - tell him what you like, and he'll make it happen.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll do well whatever you choose..

[Mahmoud Ali]

Yarra Valley is absolutely fine, but I would recommend Mornington Peninsula as a better option. Especially for the time of year - being besides the stunning seaside while spoilt for excellent wines - hard to do better.

Agreed, good advice.

[cuttlefish]

If you tour out of Sydney, you’ll have a longer drive in front of you. Melbourne is closely surrounded by Yarra, Mornington, Sunbury, Macedon Ranges, Geelong, and Bellarine Peninsula. You’re spoiled for choices in Melbourne.
If you really want to find good shiraz, you’ll have more choices to the west through Sunbury, Macedon, and Geelong/Bellarine. If you want really, really good shiraz, consider Heathcote/Grampians/Great Western. A little further to get to, but worth it.
Some on here may mount an argument for Yarra Shiraz, but really you go to the Yarra for Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and Cab Blends.

[quietdesperation]

thanks for the thoughtful replies. Via, your friend's wine tour looks wonderful but unfortunately, the cost is 2.5x pp. As to yarra vs. other regions, we're limited by my fear of driving (although I did share half a bottle with my wife on nevis and it seemed to improve my driving!) but I'll poke around for other tours.

I have a good anecdote about au shiraz. we had a French au pair, her family came to NY for a visit. Her Dad was a wine lover and I served Trevor Mast's Mount Langhi Ghiran Shiraz (this was many years ago, before the winery was sold). Until I showed him the label, he absolutely refused to believe the wine was a) not produced in France and b) was produced in Australia.

if Yarra is making good chard, pinot, etc, we could just limit our shiraz hunt to wine shops and restaurants...

[via collins]

Fair play on the price, but it's also considerably better than any other organised tour I'm aware of.

This is a personalised tour, very small group, and tailored to your interests - that is to say, the opposite of larger tours to obscure wineries. When I went on the MP tour this year, he actually had wine-maker appear out of the tea-trees near a sand dune - one whose wine I had been buying my mail-order! It was a great moment.

Hope you get an enjoyable experience whatever you choose.

[via collins]

Actually, and excellent option for shiraz is the Nagambie set-up for both Mitchelton and Tahbilk wineries - the latter is one of the most appealing wineries in the country, flat out. And Mitchelton is quite modern - both do a fine shiraz - about an hour out of Melbourne to the North. My wife told me the Nagambie region is doing some promotions, there may well be a day tour option out of Melbourne.

[quietdesperation]

thanks via, I've sent some inquiries to tour operators, looks like there may be a fun bicycle tour btw the two wineries.

[Sean]

deleted

[swirler]

Some great advice here. All very personal. My own views:

Yarra beats Mornington hands down for Bordeaux varieties, but Mornington is maybe better for pinot IMO.

The wineries on the Yarra tour you're considering are definitely some of the lesser ones there. Go to James Halliday's Wine Companion website and (IIRC) find which wineries get five red star (obviously subjective, but if you know no better it's a good starting point IMO.) Check the book otherwise.

If you have a budget and aren't too bothered about visiting the very best give the Yarra tour a shot! Expect to rub shoulders with tourists from China (no judgements made here.)

Cuttlefish,

You distinction between the two shiraz regions is very personal. If you preferred Northern Rhone style Syrah more than a more Australian style shiraz the regions around Melbourne would probably be more attractive. A bit of planning would be necessary as some wineries put shiraz on their worst red wine terroir! Grampians is a big trek. Worth it if you like Riesling and bigger shiraz. Seppelt's with its underground wine cellars is arguably one of the most interesting winery in Australia, better than Tahbilk IMO many of whose wines are quite dull (again totally IMO. YMMV.)

[quietdesperation]

thank you swiriler, JH published this list https://visityarravalley.com.au/sites/defaul ... d-2016.pdf of recommended yarra wineries and it includes deBortoli, coldstream, portet, hellen hills, innocent bystander, mac forbes, madhurst mandala, oakridge, rochford, seville, st huberts, sutherland, tarraWarra, Yarra Yering and Yering station. It seems to me I've had deBortoli, coldstream, deBortoli, yarra yerring and perhpas yering station in the past. Armed with these names, I was able to find a number of small group, reasonably priced tours which stop at a subset of these wineries.

Here in the U.S., JH is a respected critic but I don't believe his ratings influence U.S. prices. My wife and I had a foot in the wine business, we created and operated a website for a larger retailer, tasted wine with his staff, attended industry tastings and, best of all, distributors picked up the tab for much of our wine travel including appointments with winemakers (and worst of all, we were allowed to purchase wine at cost, which resulted in far too much spend!) Anyhow, I performed a half-ass statical analysis of release date, release price vs rating date, rating, and subsequent price change. It was easy to see how the dark lord influenced prices across the board, a high WS rating had a smaller correlation but there was no discernable effect from any other rating source.

is that the case in Australia?

[dave vino]

So what was the plan for Sydney? (Hunter Valley is the obvious choice, which is about 1hr 45mins drive from Sydney)

That gives you access to the best Semillon in the country and the unique Hunter Shiraz style. With some well known yet still putting out great wines (Tyrrells, Lakes Folly, Mt Pleasant, Brokenwood).

[dave vino]

Here in the U.S., JH is a respected critic but I don't believe his ratings influence U.S. prices. My wife and I had a foot in the wine business, we created and operated a website for a larger retailer, tasted wine with his staff, attended industry tastings and, best of all, distributors picked up the tab for much of our wine travel including appointments with winemakers (and worst of all, we were allowed to purchase wine at cost, which resulted in far too much spend!) Anyhow, I performed a half-ass statical analysis of release date, release price vs rating date, rating, and subsequent price change. It was easy to see how the dark lord influenced prices across the board, a high WS rating had a smaller correlation but there was no discernable effect from any other rating source.

is that the case in Australia?

Not really to the extent of Parker. JH has slowly painted himself into a corner in trying to please everyone and has suffered score creep where now most wines are scoring 95+ points.

I prefer Winefront for less cookie-cutter like reviews (which I think JH has become) and scores are more realistic.

The Jimmy Watson Trophy can cause a wine to sell out.

[quietdesperation]

So what was the plan for Sydney? (Hunter Valley is the obvious choice, which is about 1hr 45mins drive from Sydney)

That gives you access to the best Semillon in the country and the unique Hunter Shiraz style. With some well known yet still putting out great wines (Tyrrells, Lakes Folly, Mt Pleasant, Brokenwood).

dave, still mulling over plan for sydney. Not sure we want to spend 4 to 4.5 hours getting to and from wine country. otoh, I found a well-priced tour that seems like fun with tastings at Savannah Estate, Mount View Estate and Saddlers Creek:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Revie ... Wales.html

Lately I've been telling myself "grow a pair, rent a car and get to the wineries we'd really like to visit". Spoke to my wife about this inclination and she pointed out driving on the other side of the road, in a different country, starting the journey in a city, continuing on windy roads and then drinking wine might not make sense. Well, actually, her language was a little stronger than that.

I've always scratched my head over JH's high ratings. Here in the U.S., it seems to me James Suckling has ruined his reputation by showering high ratings on so many bottles while Gallioni, less effusive with his praise, has improved his standing. To be honest, I don't follow this stuff any more; we're mostly focused on drinking through our cellar before death comes a callin'.

[George Krashos]

GPS will help you re the driving. I drove in the USA two years ago and it was easy as pie.

Going on your own tour will really let you study up on the wineries you want to visit and will likely enjoy as well as having a chance to just "pop in" to somewhere you see along the drive. It's always nice to find hidden gems. The drinking/driving thing is an issue but if you've got time for an overnight stay it's certainly doable.

Whatever you decide, hope you have a great trip and stay.

-- George Krashos

[Mahmoud Ali]

If it's any help I rotate from left side to right side all the time. Canada on the right side of the road for most of my regular driving, and Australia and Bangladesh on the left whenever I am visiting. The only thing I always insist on doing is sitting in the front passenger seat for a day or two in a conscious effort to acclimatise myself to the switch. I do this even when I return home to Canada. The hardest part, if I can call it that, is concentrating when exiting driveways and parking lots, otherwise the centre line is always on the driver's side. Oh, one more thing, you will always, always, always flick the wipers on instead of the indicator. Never let that fluster you, simply use the other indicator switch and tu
Rn off the wipers after completing the turn.

Driving in Sydney would be the toughest, what with unfamiliar roads, roundabouts (traffic circles - I love them, far superior to three and four-way stop signs), and traffic congestion. Highways are simpler, and the major ones are divided. One idea would be to hire a car in the Hunter Valley, small town and rural atmosphere and far less traffic. I suspect that one you start, the nervousness will pass and confidence will grow.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

As someone that has moved to Australia and started driving there...

I'm not sure I would rent a car in Sydney and drive to the Hunter without having driven in AU or the left side before.

The roads in AU are narrower and in Sydney less straight than what you'll be used to in the US (in most cities). You also won't be able to rely on basic common sense to get back on track to where you want to be because the roads won't have another pathway to get to the parallel (which is not parallel because that hardly exists in Sydney) road you have have missed the turn for. The turnoffs can also be a bit funny as well..

It isn't that hard..but it isn't that easy...staying on the left side tends to be easy...turning is fine as long as there are other cars around...Where you run the chance of of having an issue is if there are no cars around you and you lose concentration.

This is vs. driving in the US where the roads are wider and everything is, IMO, simpler...

There are some private tours of the Hunter, where you can get a driver to take you where you want to go...I'd probably say this is a better option given the situation. You might even ask if someone here wants to drive you (you'd pay for the trip of course but that won't be any different than a private tour situation). The Hunter is great, but from what I've seen the tours there don't take you to the places I think many on here would recommend...

If you're going to drive, spit...I definitely would not go wine tasting and drink+drive...the Hunter wineries are not that far from each other and depending on your rate of tasting, you can actually go through a lot of wine in a day....I don't know if the Hunter ever has RBTs but I know in NSW, if they stop you, they can just immediately ask for a breathalyzer so don't think this is like the US where they have to have a reasonable suspicion..they can flat out demand you do it.. BAC is also .05 vs. whatever it is in your state (like .08 in CA).

What you find around Melbourne won't be as different as what you find in the Hunter. They're all very good wines but you can find similar wines in other areas...Whereas you won't find the type of Semillon you'll get in the Hunter from anywhere else. Hunter Shiraz is also quite different (although not everyone enjoys the style) from what you will find elsewhere.

One other thing (in case you haven't brought wine back into the US before). Even if you bring more than the duty free allowance, the taxes on wine is so slow it really doesn't matter how much you bring back. It won't be enough to attract any taxes anyways because it is so low (it is done on volume) they can't be bothered to charge you, it isn't worth their time...

[quietdesperation]

thank you polymer, in the end I think we'll just grab a tour. I don't think we'll be carrying wine home as we have a number of other stops on this trip.

here's a question for the forum, I had a colleague and fellow wine love from Australia who swore by Best's Shiraz. At some point I recall the opportunity to source some here in the U.S. but I let it go and haven't pursued it. Is it good? readily available?

tia,

[dave vino]

dave, still mulling over plan for sydney. Not sure we want to spend 4 to 4.5 hours getting to and from wine country. otoh, I found a well-priced tour that seems like fun with tastings at Savannah Estate, Mount View Estate and Saddlers Creek:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Revie ... Wales.html

If you can give me more definite dates I'd be happy to take you up there and show you around. Tim (TiggerK) also said he'd be happy to come along (and has access to the Tyrrells Private Tasting room being a member).

That way we can show you the best parts of the Hunter without any constraints.

Assume you'd be staying in the CBD? So I can pick you up there and straight across the Harbour Bridge up the Pacific Hwy, grab Tim and then continue on up on the M1 to the Hunter.

[dave vino]

thank you polymer, in the end I think we'll just grab a tour. I don't think we'll be carrying wine home as we have a number of other stops on this trip.

here's a question for the forum, I had a colleague and fellow wine love from Australia who swore by Best's Shiraz. At some point I recall the opportunity to source some here in the U.S. but I let it go and haven't pursued it. Is it good? readily available?

tia,

Yep you can get it at most wine retailers. They do a few different ones Bin 1, Bin 0 and then a flagship one. I think it is about $25, $60 and over a hundred price wise.

[Polymer]

Definitely take Dave and Tim up on the offer to take you to the Hunter...You'll get to see the best of the Hunter and talk to some wine loving Aussies (forget that one of them is a Kiwi).

[quietdesperation]

dave,

thank you for the kind offer! we'd absolutely love to on one condition: you and Tim pick a nice place for lunch and allow us to pay. Does jan 22, 23 or 24 work?

best,

[via collins]

BOY have things turned out well!

The Auswine Forum scores hugely!!

Good times ahead one suspects.

[swirler]

dave,

thank you for the kind offer! we'd absolutely love to on one condition: you and Tim pick a nice place for lunch and allow us to pay. Does jan 22, 23 or 24 work?

best,

Why not make it dinner and turn it into an Auswine (Sydney) offline?

[TiggerK]

dave,

thank you for the kind offer! we'd absolutely love to on one condition: you and Tim pick a nice place for lunch and allow us to pay. Does jan 22, 23 or 24 work?

best,

Sounds like a plan. Dave's up in Coffs on hols so I'll send you a PM and we can get the day planned!

Cheers
Tim

[odyssey]

Nice one Dave and Tim!

Why not make it dinner and turn it into an Auswine (Sydney) offline?

Why not both?
[img]https://cdn.meme.am/cache/images/folder742/50x50/6484742.jpg[/img]

I'd be happy to round up troops and book an offline - whether the same or different day (will coordinate with Dave and Tim to work that out).

BYO shouldn't be a problem on those weekdays.

Let me know and I'll get the wheels in motion.

[TiggerK]

Nice day in the Hunter on Tuesday with quietdesperation & his lovely wife. Huge thanks to Dave Vino for his generous spirit to organise a HUnter Tour for our visitors and for driving us up there and back in style. In between the tastings at Lakes Folly, Audrey Wilkinson, Gundog, a nice lunch at Cafe Enzo, a long Private Bin session at Tyrrell's inc most of the good wines and a bonus cellar tour (action stations as it's vintage time), there was much talk of I.T., how's the Aussie serenity, gender neutral restrooms, people called 'they' and the career path options for a wannabe tropical island dictator. All good fun and the 40 degree heat made it an authentic Hunter experience too.

And the Offline last night for our guests and an extra visitor from Seattle! A solid bunch of classic Oz wines with a few guest Kiwi & USA wines thrown into the mix. Had a Sami-Odi Baby Tui as well, which isn't in the picture. Highlights for me were the Leo B Riesling 91, Kumeu HH Chard 13, Rhys Pinot 13, Folly 89, Wendouree 91 and the Riddoch 91.

St Claude's in Woollahra is a wonderful restaurant worthy of much BYO patronage. Food is very well executed, staff are friendly (Ryan is a star), classy space, lots to love. Highly Recommended.

[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/TimMiscStuf ... ium%29.jpg[/img]

List and comments from memory...

Crawford River Riesling 2012 - a bit flat I thought, dumb phase? Bugger as I had hoped this would show Aussie Riesling nicely, alas no.
Grosset Watervale Riesling 2001 (Screwcap) - florals were subtle, fresh & youthful, not up to a Polish Hill 01 mse bought along a while back, but still nice.
Leo Buring Leonay Rhine Riesling 1991 (not sure bin no) - so interesting! A bit on the old side perhaps but I kept coming back to it. Mmm aged Riesling.
Kumeu River Hunting Hill Chardonnay 2013 - Excellent as always
Penfolds Bin 94a Chardonnay 1994 - Perfectly stored since release and it showed very well. Oak quite well restrained too, which I didn't expect.
Tyrrell's Vat 47 Chardonnay 2002 (cork) - not a great showing for my tastes (my bottle too duh) - not TCA or anything, maybe a bit of heat damage?
Tyrrell's Vat 1 Semillon 2000 - late addition, should have had this with the oysters! A good cork obviously as this was still so so young, zingy and fresh.
Rhys Santa Cruz Mountains Pinot Noir 2013 - liked this, well judged ripeness & oak, some savoury elements, prob even better in 3-5 years.
Mitchelton Print Shiraz 2002 - Everyone enjoyed this a lot, travelling nicely, drink now to next 10 years. I did suspect the merest hint of TCA, maybe.
Giaconda Warner Shiraz 2010 - young but characterful. More in a savoury style than obvious upfront fruit. Like this label.
Tyrrell's Vat 9 Shiraz 1993 - Bit past it and oxidised sadly.
Wendouree Shiraz Malbec 1991 - Classic Wendouree, big black fruits, fine tannins, slight VA lift, almost pretty but in a dark side of the force kinda way.
Clonakilla Syrah 2013 - Floral and perfumed lifted fruit SV type nose, you'd think there was something else in here instead of 100% Syrah surely. Nice texture and mid weight palate, enjoyed it.
J. Bell Cellars Takima Valley (Washington State) Syrah 2013 - Bigger style but alcohol is well handled, plenty of power here without going OTT.
Lake's Folly Cabernets 1989 - Ah nice, a bit of classic Hunter funk! Soon blew off to show very well, I liked it a lot.
Wynns John Riddoch Cabernet Sauvignon 1991 - I love Riddoch and this was no exception. Tannins have really softened, lovely wine.
Mount Mary Quintets 2006 - Great condition, still young but a long decant helped. Deep and dark fruited, strong attack on the palate, long finish. Love to see this in 10 more years+
Sami-Odi Baby Tui - Sorry just too whole bunch stalk for me, couldn't get past that green stalky element which I'm not much of a fan of.
Glaetzer Dixon Mon Pere Shiraz 2010 - The Jimmy Watson winner itself. I felt it was in a good spot,a touch more stalk than I would like personally, but pleasant wine.

Dull notes sorry people, as is often the case I was too busy chatting and enjoying the night to take any notes!

The crew...
[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/TimMiscStuf ... ium%29.jpg[/img]

[phillisc]

Dave and Tim, absolutely fantastic spirit shown, a wine tour, lunch and dinner...never mind the thousands that tourist pay to operators that just see it as a transaction, your hospitality, knowledge and engagement would have been magnificent.
Its on my list to do a Melbourne offline with Malcolm (mjs) and now it seems if I am ever in Sydney, well Its a date .
Auswine is a pretty good community to be a part of.

Cheers
Craig

[Willard]

What a terrific show Dave and Tim, just tremendous generosity.

Will