Most you'd pay for a hidden label?

[bdellabosca]

Spurred by the beguiling Hermes Man link in the Henschke v Hermitage thread (http://www.styleforum.net/t/249680/leav ... -to-others), a question sprang to mind:

1. What is the most you would be willing to pay for a "hidden label" bottle, assuming:
- you are able to taste the wine and think it is amazing / the best you've ever tasted with great aging potential, etc... AND
- you know nothing about the wine (i.e. you do not know what other people think of it or what grape, country, region, vineyard or vintage) and will never find out any information?

My initial gut response was probably around $50 which I surprised me as I've regularly spent more, i.e. my perceived maximum value for a bottle of wine is more than $50. I put the difference primarily down to distrust of my own palette which is flawed logic as I'll be the one drinking it...

Very curious about other answers...


"what about the dragon scale slipper? any comment? and how do i authenticate whether the dragon scale is real or not?" - Hermes Man 2015

[Ian S]

Less than I should.

We'd all like to think we trust our own palate and would be happy to make judgements solely on blind tasting. However I'm pretty sure I do pay a premium for a consistent track record and (less justifiably) the safety in numbers of others liking it as well. That last one is hard to admit to, but I think there is some truth in it.

Part of this stems from cellaring being a major part of the hobby for me, so I'm more drawn to those wines that are proven cellaring wines. Sometimes I feel reasonably confident on how an unknown wine might age, but past performance does significantly improve that confidence.

[phillisc]

See that Teusner FG...what ever the last of the name of the wine is. A $100+ Barossa Shiraz as a cleanskin for $50...why?
Anyway Jamieson's Run Rothwell 2001 Cab which was either declassified, minimally released at $180 a dozen ( instead of $960) was too good to pass up.

Cheers
Craig.

[dave vino]

In reality you very rarely get to sample hidden labels. They all come via direct email or phone.

I don't buy hidden labels. Unless they have given enough clues in the ad of what it is, I don't bother. I'd rather spend my money on wines I know I want.

Not to mention they usually want you to buy a 6 or 12 pack of it.

[Mahmoud Ali]

By "hidden labels" I take it you mean cleanskins. I distinguish between those that come from cellar door and retailers.

Cleanskins from cellar door are usually inexpensive and while they can be quite good are made with wine that are not up to the standard or profile of the wineries regular lineup of wines. In some instances wineries will use excess wines for special bottles but usually use their own labels. I recall Henschke selling a museum release 1982 Malbec that they explained was excess wine leftover from the blending of Keyneton Estate. Naturally enough I was prepared to pay for such a unique wine. At Bleasedale's cellar door in Langhorne Creek they were selling a wine that they had made for someone else but the party backed out so they made a separate label for this one-off and it was pretty good and reasonably priced to recover their costs I suppose.

We don't get cleanskins at retailers here but even if we did I wouldn't pay much more than $10 since I can always find well made wine in the $10 to $20 range especially if they are on sale. There is no reason to suppose that the same doesn't hold true in Australia. The thing about cleanskins is why would an amazing wine with great cellaring potential be in a cleanskin? Good wines from good producers usually sell out so the idea of a winery having too much of a good thing indicates to me that their wines are overpriced. (In a notorious example Schild Estate ran out of a shiraz that was highly rated in the US and notoriouly sourced more wine to bottle. When they were caught they apparently put a sticker on the bottle).

Also worth considering is the labelling of cleanskins. Usually wineries will bottle and label at the same time unless it's a fairly large production wine of which a portion are held back for museum releases. Therefore unless the original labels have been removed cleanskins perforce are "museum release stock" or wines purposely bottled and labeled as cleanskins. If for some reason the winery needed the money why wouldn't they just sell some museum stock and that too in several vintages, and wouldn't that also apply to the "museum release" cleanskins?

I've alway been sceptical of the whole cleanskins marketing but there may be others here who can set me straight.

Cheers .................. Mahmoud.

[paulf]

By "hidden labels" I take it you mean cleanskins. I distinguish between those that come from cellar door and retailers.

Not exactly Mahmoud. It is a practice that has increased here over the last few years, where retailers, particularly in the online space, offer a wine that they might give details like year, region points scores or tasting notes on, but they won't reveal what the actual wine is.
If you buy some, when they arrive it is packaged normally with appropriate labels.
It seems to have become a major mechanism for wineries dumping stock at significant discount to their retail prices and I guess has become and evolution of the cleanskin offerings. Cleanskins do still exist but probably at a lower price points for the most part.

Anyway, I doubt I'd go beyond $30 if I didn't know what I am buying and even then that would be rare. For most part, I'd use these sorts of deals to take a chance on quaffers so I'd probably be in that $15 - $20 mark

[phillisc]

Yes there is a another whole forum ( many here are members) and known to many more that hunts down these mystery wines...I have to say with limited funds I am thankful for many of the finds.
Equally I can think of 8 e-tailers (some very reputable and others, frankly rubbish) who have mystery wines 365 days of the year.

Cheers
Craig

[bdellabosca]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

To clarify, the question I had intended to pose related to a hypothetical scenario where the wine tastes great but you will never know the details of the wine, what would you pay to buy more bottles of that unknown wine. I didn't intend it to relate to the cleanskins marketing concept which is tainted by questions / doubts about why has it been made a cleanskin and the , etc... with negative implications for wine quality. Rereading the original post I can see why there is obvious confusion - sorry.

I was just thinking about how much of what we are willing to pay for a bottle is based on what's on the outside of the bottle rather than what's inside it...

[Polymer]

I've alway been sceptical of the whole cleanskins marketing but there may be others here who can set me straight.

You're right and wrong...

I don't disagree with what you've said as far as the examples given..

But there are also wines that get sold like this for other reasons..and they're legitimate bottles of a much more expensive wine...

Some might be museum stock that they don't want to flood or hurt their current retail price with..some might be a cork/screwcap trial of both....sold as a cleanskin but with an export label happens...and othertimes with mystery wines, they still have the label but you don't know what the wine is until you get it...and this falls into the "they don't want to hurt their price" model...or they don't want to upset their customers or wine club or whatever model....

[sjw_11]

I once got a "Hidden Label" from Kemeny's that was the 2001 Jack Mann ... or at least I believe it was based on the use of a James Halliday review to promote it. That was $40.

In that example, I am 99% confident I know what the wine is, but it cannot be confirmed and clearly on the table it lacks the brand cachet of the label. The wine itself was truly superb, adding to my certainty of its origins. I would (and probably should have!) happily buy more at $40 and put it in the cellar. The retail price of the wine was probably around $100.

I think I would have been happy to pay $40/bottle, i.e. a 60% discount vs RRP, but not much higher given the risk that 1) it is NOT what you think it is, and hence you cannot rely on the cellaring track record of the branded wine or 2) maybe it is a slightly faulty part of the bottling run or a secondary blend that didn't make the final quality assessment or 3) maybe a set of museum stock bottles left in the sun for a while and hence sold off-brand

I think generally I would always be happy to take a punt on a single bottle of hidden label that I was reasonably convinced was a 40%+ discount to retail (if I like the wine style) but I would be much less likely to buy a dozen of such a wine and cellar it! I don't know if that position actually makes sense though!

[Mahmoud Ali]

I really had not heard of the "Hidden Labels" thing before and don't recall anyone on this forum talking about a known wine that they purchased on discount as a hidden wine. I'm very curious about what wines people on this forum got when ordering hidden wines. Were they museum release wines or their current release wine?

Mahmoud.

[dave vino]

I got a case of 2012 Coldstream Hills Reserve Shiraz (only due to me working it out what it was)
Yarraloch Pinot Noir is another,

[Polymer]

I really had not heard of the "Hidden Labels" thing before and don't recall anyone on this forum talking about a known wine that they purchased on discount as a hidden wine. I'm very curious about what wines people on this forum got when ordering hidden wines. Were they museum release wines or their current release wine?

Mahmoud.

There's the true hidden labels which have a different label....Kemenys does that, for example. There are cleanskins that are just whatever wine..and winery cleanskins which are actual normal wines but without the label. There are also "hidden label" mystery wines with the label but are advertised to people and you don't know what it is till you get it. The last one being popular in Australia and in the US.

[winetastic]

I really had not heard of the "Hidden Labels" thing before and don't recall anyone on this forum talking about a known wine that they purchased on discount as a hidden wine. I'm very curious about what wines people on this forum got when ordering hidden wines. Were they museum release wines or their current release wine?

Mahmoud.

I think part of the reason is there is one retailer in particular here in Australia who specialises in this sort of thing and it would be bad form to specifically mention such 'deals' here.

I did it once, was "last years" release of an Aussie Nebbiolo just as the new vintage came onto the market, price point was 1/3 of normal retail, wine was ok.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Sam, I saw your post after posting but from what I gather you deduced that the wine you got was a Jack Mann based on a Halliday review that I presume Kemeny's alluded to or provided, not the label. I've no doubt that it was a good wine that you received but the only way to confirm it is to taste it side by side with a genuine Jack Mann from the same vintage. Otherwise how is it different from a cleanskin.

People worry about paying good money for fake wines but are prepared to pay a discount on wines without the proper label? Rudi Kurniawan ought to have put cleanskin labels on his bottles. Sure he would have made less money but at least he wouldn't be in jail.

Mahmoud.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Oh dear, more posts while I was composiong the last one.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I got a case of 2012 Coldstream Hills Reserve Shiraz (only due to me working it out what it was)
Yarraloch Pinot Noir is another,

You don't really know it is a Coldstream Hills wine, you had to work it out.

I think part of the reason is there is one retailer in particular here in Australia who specialises in this sort of thing and it would be bad form to specifically mention such 'deals' here.

I did it once, was "last years" release of an Aussie Nebbiolo just as the new vintage came onto the market, price point was 1/3 of normal retail, wine was ok.

Why can you not say what you bought on the forum - did you have to sign non-disclosure form before they agreed to sell you the wines? I'll bet the Nebbiolo was just okay.

The best deals on wine is the genuine wine that you buy on sale, clearance, or at auction.

Mahmoud.

[sjw_11]

Sam, I saw your post after posting but from what I gather you deduced that the wine you got was a Jack Mann based on a Halliday review that I presume Kemeny's alluded to or provided, not the label. I've no doubt that it was a good wine that you received but the only way to confirm it is to taste it side by side with a genuine Jack Mann from the same vintage. Otherwise how is it different from a cleanskin.

People worry about paying good money for fake wines but are prepared to pay a discount on wines without the proper label? Rudi Kurniawan ought to have put cleanskin labels on his bottles. Sure he would have made less money but at least he wouldn't be in jail.

Mahmoud.

Correct, Mahmoud.

In this case then my willingness to pay was based on trust in the Kemeny's brand, vindicated by the quality of the wine in the bottle.
Was it definitely a bottle of Jack Mann or was it some other WA Cabernet, I do not know. But in either way, it was clearly a very high quality and delicious Cab Sav!

For the record, that is far and away the most I have ever paid for a true Hidden Label i.e. Cleanskin. It really does rest on trust in the particular retailer or cellar door. There genuinely are opportunities from time to time to buy great wine at a discount. $100/bottle wine is great, but it ain't cash! If you cannot shift your stocks at $100/bottle and you need the cash to pay your staff or to put food on your table it can make a lot of sense to discount it BUT de-brand it so you don't devalue the next release...

I have also bought plenty of "hidden labels" where the wine is still in fact labelled but you only confirm what you have got once you open the box! Again, these are generally bought at a sizeable discount to RRP. You can argue it still rests on trust that the wines are not fake... but that is true of all purchases! I don't think there are that many fake Mt Langi Ghiran Billi Billi Shiraz or De Bortoli Estate Shiraz Viognier though (to use two examples of wines I bought that way!)

[sjw_11]

I got a case of 2012 Coldstream Hills Reserve Shiraz (only due to me working it out what it was)
Yarraloch Pinot Noir is another,

You don't really know it is a Coldstream Hills wine, you had to work it out.

I am pretty sure this is one of those where the wine is still labelled but sold as a "Mystery Wine". So when he got the wine, it was labelled as Coldstream Hills.

Better terminology would be to differentiate between Mystery Wines (labelled wine sold without disclosing the producer/brand) and unlabelled/Cleanskin/Hidden Label wine which is all synonymous.

[sjw_11]

Oh and just to be clear, why we don't often talk about Mystery Wine deals is they are sold by retailers who are not Gavin! There are other forums as mentioned above which discuss and unmask such deals based on the available clues.

I am sure plenty of the wines posted in the Purchases threads may have been bought from the various online vendors who plug these deals... don't know if anyone got some of the Tyrrell's Vat 8 that was going around recently, but that would be a classic example of a very hard to turn down mystery deal, at half the current CD price.

Why? Maybe Tyrrell's has a cash flow squeeze. Maybe they want to buy a new tractor. Maybe the owners needed another ivory backscratcher. Who knows... lots of possible reasons!

I think taking a punt on a trusted retailer (including some of these online vendors... based on my personal experience with them) on a cleanskin or mystery wine that is *most likely* from a respected producer is less of a risk than buying an expensive wine at auction that *might have* sat in someone's attic in North Queensland slowly stewing for a decade...

[Mahmoud Ali]

I got a case of 2012 Coldstream Hills Reserve Shiraz (only due to me working it out what it was)
Yarraloch Pinot Noir is another,

You don't really know it is a Coldstream Hills wine, you had to work it out.

I am pretty sure this is one of those where the wine is still labelled but sold as a "Mystery Wine". So when he got the wine, it was labelled as Coldstream Hills.

Not sure what you mean Sam. Dave Vino said "due to me working it out" which suggests to me that it wasn't labeled Coldstream Hills. If indeed it was labelled Coldstream Hills he wouldn't have to work it out.

Mahmoud.

[shauno]

Mahmoud, I think Dave is referring to guessing (or otherwise) the mystery wine before purchase, and he guessed correctly as it turned up and was indeed labelled Coldstream.

I've bought plenty of ''mystery" wines over the past few years, but almost only when the price is right & I've got a very solid guess at what it is (easy enough based on published lines from reviews). As it's all genuine labelled stock, you know once it arrives anyway

The other risk is that the wine has issues (storage:etc), which can occur for any discount wine and not just "mystery"/etc - interesting thread @ WF about a retailer (let's call them V***M***) flogging cheap Blue Poles & a lot of it seemed to be cooked.

[Polymer]

Not sure what you mean Sam. Dave Vino said "due to me working it out" which suggests to me that it wasn't labeled Coldstream Hills. If indeed it was labelled Coldstream Hills he wouldn't have to work it out.

Mahmoud you haven't seen the Mystery wines from Garagiste in the US?

Basically they give you a bunch of clues but don't tell you what the wine is..sometimes they give you so much it is easy to figure out what the wine is..sometimes not...it shows up at your door, open the box and then you know whether you guessed right..

[Mahmoud Ali]

Okay, point accepted: that people guess which wines are referred to in the promotion and then, upon receiving the wines find they got what they thought they would. However what I don't understand is why nobody seems to be saying outright what they got based on the label on the bottle.

As for Tyrrell's, I find it highly unlikely that they would be selling museum stock of Vat 8 at knock down prices. They're an old winery and almost everything is paid for. In fact they used to sell current releases at cellar door for almost half retail before selling the wine to the retail trade. So when I was in Australia I could buy the Vat 9 for A$25 before it was released to the retail trade at which point it would cost almost A$50. That is not the modus operendi of a winery that needs money.

Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

On the Tyrrells thing...it is absolutely true...came with a normal label as well....

[Mahmoud Ali]

I stand corrected on the Tyrrell's. Well at least there is now one wine that has been named.

Oh, and to answer your question from a previous post, I have not heard of Garagiste from the US. I'll have to look it up.

Mahmoud.

[dave vino]

You don't really know it is a Coldstream Hills wine, you had to work it out.

I am pretty sure this is one of those where the wine is still labelled but sold as a "Mystery Wine". So when he got the wine, it was labelled as Coldstream Hills.

Not sure what you mean Sam. Dave Vino said "due to me working it out" which suggests to me that it wasn't labeled Coldstream Hills. If indeed it was labelled Coldstream Hills he wouldn't have to work it out.

Mahmoud.

It wasn't advertised as Coldstream Hills, and the bottle was pixelated, but the tasting notes were easy enough to Google. They said the bottles are full retail packaged with labels and everything. Like I said in my first post if I don't know what it is I won't buy it. (before or after the fact)

The only ones I've bought without any labels whatsoever is the Seppelt VP ones, even then they have a Seppelt closure. These were bought direct from Seppeltsfield.

[winetastic]

Why can you not say what you bought on the forum - did you have to sign non-disclosure form before they agreed to sell you the wines? I'll bet the Nebbiolo was just okay.

No I mean its polite to Gavin not specifically mention other retailers stocking x wine, regardless of their sales techniques.

[rooman]

When VM first started up, it was a really useful tool to move some of the excess capacity in the wine market and I like, many here, pick up some superb bargains. But the last few cases were almost undrinkable so I figured they had picked the eyes out of the industry surplus and the moment had passed.

Ian's point above however is pretty close to my own buying philosophy. I don't mind paying good money for top tier wine but I prefer to buy wines with a proven track records. Despite collecting for more than 30 odd years, I really can't tell if a young wine will cellar long term and improve or not. I don't get out to enough tastings, especially since we had kids and I tend to rely on the experience of industry people who taste daily for guidance.

Mark

[Rocky]

Really surprised this thread has received so much traction.