Old or New World Palate Bias?

[Ozzie W]

I started my wine journey about a decade ago, focusing almost exclusively on Australian reds. Over the past year or so, I've started to venture out of my comfort zone and I've been trying some Old World red wines from France, Italy and Spain. Except for a few exceptions, I haven't enjoyed the Old World wines anywhere near as much as I enjoy my Aussie reds.

So I've been thinking about why this might be the case. In general, the Old World wines seem to be much less fruit focused, so obviously there's a difference in style. Is my palate biased towards Aussie reds because that's what I'm used to? I know an old French guy that's been living in Australia for the past 15 years and he dislikes Aussie wine, so it could just be the same thing in reverse?

Do I just need more time for my palate to "adjust" to the Old World style? In my earlier wine drinking years, I did not like Pinot or aged reds, so my palate obviously has evolved over time to enjoy these styles. Do I just need more samples and time for my palate to acquire a real liking to the Old World style?

Looking forward to reading what others have to say about all this.

[dave vino]

Yes.

Could write a long reply but it would reach the same conclusion.

[phillisc]

Ozzie, great post and agree with Dave but think there is something quite simple why I have not had a lot of luck with old world/international.

I live in Australia, apart from a half dozen overseas trips to experience a bit of culture, some would say I've had a sheltered life.
As I live in Australia I drink Australian wine, I know the regions, labels, people who make it, can immerse myself in the expereince of visiting and apart from constant exposure, guess my palate is a little forgiving.

When I did have a couple of weeks in France some time back, I went to as many places as possible, visited a couple of wine regions, brought a couple of bottles to try each day and started to scratch the surface.
I am convinced that if I had 3-6 months somewhere, say Germany, Italy or even South Africa, my palate would become more expereinced, more expressive, more tolerant and perhaps a little more discerning.

I find it very hard to comment on 2-3 Barolos that I might have brought or tasted here in Adelaide...just difficult to contextualise if that makes sense, but with repeated exposure I might get better.
Not saying that you have to go to Reims or the like to enjoy Krug...tastes beautiful here too, but find much of the old world framework completely overwhelming.

Cheers
Craig

[swirler]

[edit: I took a while to write this and hadn't read Craig's post before writing it. The Barolo reference was purely coincidental.]

Depends on how much exposure you get of Old World wine. If you buy a bottle of Barolo, you may thinks it's a tannic mess and '$80 for that?!', and give up. If you drink or taste, say, several examples per month, you may, after a while, start to 'get it' and eventually start enjoying it, especially if you try aged examples. Having friends with old world palates helps, too.They stump up the cash for good examples and their enthusiasm can be infectious. Granted, not everyone is fortunate to be in that position.

Also, it depends on your personality type. I could never just drink Barossa shiraz week in week out. Variety is the spice of life for me. But I know men married to women who cook fantastic, varied food, but have to cook rissoles/silverside with white sauce/etc. separately for him. It takes all types.....

[JamieBahrain]

Struggling with the new-wave Australian wines - overblown fruit, high alcohol, low acidity and in screw cap. As my palate has calibrated since living abroad for 13 years I struggle with young Australian wines too. I need them with some age.

So I'm not sure about a bias, I really do love the Australian wines of old and I'm a bit out of currency with emerging trends ( though keen to learn with low $Aussie ).

New World wines I crave when visiting Australia and caught up in power drinking with friends. I can drink old school, Old World, all night and feel fine the next day. Aussies, ouch....! And food, which sees many a modest Old World wines transformed but Aussies can be very food fussy and potentially don't work at all.

There are also many, many Old World wines tending to the middle ground of many Australian styles. Which probably explains why I still enjoy Australian wines so much and the great joy is diversity.

[Ozzie W]

Thanks for all the informative responses. I guess I'll just keep at it and see what happens.

[swirler]

Living in Melbourne, you have access to some of the best free wine tasting events just about anywhere. PM me if you wish as I can't discuss rival outlets on here.

[Scotty vino]

Ozzie, great post and agree with Dave but think there is something quite simple why I have not had a lot of luck with old world/international.

I live in Australia, apart from a half dozen overseas trips to experience a bit of culture, some would say I've had a sheltered life.
As I live in Australia I drink Australian wine, I know the regions, labels, people who make it, can immerse myself in the expereince of visiting and apart from constant exposure, guess my palate is a little forgiving.

When I did have a couple of weeks in France some time back, I went to as many places as possible, visited a couple of wine regions, brought a couple of bottles to try each day and started to scratch the surface.
I am convinced that if I had 3-6 months somewhere, say Germany, Italy or even South Africa, my palate would become more expereinced, more expressive, more tolerant and perhaps a little more discerning.

I find it very hard to comment on 2-3 Barolos that I might have brought or tasted here in Adelaide...just difficult to contextualise if that makes sense, but with repeated exposure I might get better.
Not saying that you have to go to Reims or the like to enjoy Krug...tastes beautiful here too, but find much of the old world framework completely overwhelming.

Cheers
Craig

This is where I'm at. Got a smattering of old world stuff in the cellar.
Apparently all roads lead to burgundy.... so i better get cracking.

[Wizz]

This is where I'm at. Got a smattering of old world stuff in the cellar.
Apparently all roads lead to burgundy.... so i better get cracking.

And once you get to Burgundy - all roads lead to Piedmonte...

[Wayno]

I'm reminded of trips to Europe. After a few weeks of only drinking European wines, the first Australian wine on the plane tastes like a complete fruit bomb.

[Ozzie W]

Living in Melbourne, you have access to some of the best free wine tasting events just about anywhere. PM me if you wish as I can't discuss rival outlets on here.

Thanks Swirler. I'm aware of these tasting events as I get emails on a regular basis from the various stores advertising them. However, they're either at inconvenient times for me or clash with family commitments, so I never manage to get to them. It's shame as these events would be a great way for me to try lots of different Old World wines in a short time-frame. I really must do something about it. Where there's a will, there's a way!

[Polymer]

Or Offlines.....another great way to see stuff....

[swirler]

Where there's a will, there's a way!

Exactly!

[swirler]

Or Offlines.....another great way to see stuff....

At a tasting you can taste dozens of wines from a particular region in an hour or so. In an off-line most wines are usually mostly Aussie, they take a whole evening and come at a cost. Organised wine dinners are kind of best of both worlds and can be pretty good money.

Of course there are plenty of reasons to attend offlines, but learning about European wines isn't a big one IMO.

Cue European Offline thread

[Polymer]

Or Offlines.....another great way to see stuff....

At a tasting you can taste dozens of wines from a particular region in an hour or so. In an off-line most wines are usually mostly Aussie, they take a whole evening and come at a cost.

I dunno..it depends...Some of the offlines are mostly Aussie..some are not...I'm actually looking forward to the Hunter offline specifically because most of the stuff lately (not necessarily on here) has been imported wines...I'd say in the last 2 years of Auswine offlines, which are AU focused (usually) we've had a good amount of Champagne, Red and White Burgundy, some Jura, German Riesling, Kiwi stuff, some Italian, some Bordeaux, some Loire Red and Whites...Beaujolais...California...I'm sure I'm missing some...

I'm not saying tastings aren't great...they are...but when it comes to international stuff, they're fairly limited and generally very average....Some of the stores do some and they can be decent and can be free which is nice...

I'd say the best foreign wines I've had have been brought to offlines by someone...Their generosity and willingness to share just doesn't translate into a business...

The biggest difference to me is: offlines = some people might bring stuff that isn't imported or is imported in tiny quantities. Tasting events = stuff that is relatively easy to get.

And of course...you can do both!! Both are great!!

[swirler]

I'm not saying tastings aren't great...they are...but when it comes to international stuff, they're fairly limited and generally very average....Some of the stores do some and they can be decent and can be free which is nice...

Sheesh. Couldn't disagree more. See my comments about Melbourne tastings. Maybe OzzieW can explain.....

[rens]

I must admit that recently my palate is less attracted to the fruit bomb that Aussies get pigeon holed as, and focussed more on the nuanced styles available. Hence my trip down the road of Iberian wines and a bit of Burgundy here and there-when it is somewhat affordable. There are Aussies that fit the bill, but the cheaper end of things lacks the finess that I long for. It's as if they fill the front palate with a bucket of fruit to fill the void in the middle and end, where as the classier Aussies and the Euro's do give more in the mid and end palates.

[Polymer]

Sheesh. Couldn't disagree more. See my comments about Melbourne tastings. Maybe OzzieW can explain.....

Maybe Melbourne has better stuff..or maybe what we consider great is different....


At least here..

Imports at offline have been >>>>>>>>>>> events

But it could be there
event imports >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offlines imports

But like I said..who cares? Do both...

[Ozzie W]

Sheesh. Couldn't disagree more. See my comments about Melbourne tastings. Maybe OzzieW can explain.....

Maybe Melbourne has better stuff..or maybe what we consider great is different....


At least here..

Imports at offline have been >>>>>>>>>>> events

But it could be there
event imports >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offlines imports

But like I said..who cares? Do both...

It's difficult for me to judge the standard of Old World wines being offered at the various retail tasting events because the labels on offer usually aren't familiar to me. However, there's one particular store that has had a couple incredible (in my opinion) free tastings this year from labels I do recognise. One was a vertical of Passopisciaro and the other was a selection of wines from Gaja. I don't know if this is the usual standard at these kind of tasting events or if these were exceptions to the norm.

However, looking at the Australian wines on offer to taste at 3 well known retail stores in Melbourne, they certainly don't skimp on the good stuff. Plenty of high end bottles on offer to taste, usually for free, sometimes for a very small fee.

I've also noticed some of the stores running (quite expensive) courses on various Old World wine regions. What do people think of these?

[swirler]

Cheers, OzzieW.

Not interested in the courses, but it's good that they are there for those who want them.

Talking of local wines, I noticed Grange, JR, Michael, Saltram's No. 1, both 9th Chambers, Leonay, RWT, Messenger, Show Reserve SS, St Peter's, etc. were on tasting at one venue at the weekend. Not bad for $20.

Sorry for the thread drift......

[Polymer]

It's difficult for me to judge the standard of Old World wines being offered at the various retail tasting events because the labels on offer usually aren't familiar to me. However, there's one particular store that has had a couple incredible (in my opinion) free tastings this year from labels I do recognise. One was a vertical of Passopisciaro and the other was a selection of wines from Gaja. I don't know if this is the usual standard at these kind of tasting events or if these were exceptions to the norm.

However, looking at the Australian wines on offer to taste at 3 well known retail stores in Melbourne, they certainly don't skimp on the good stuff. Plenty of high end bottles on offer to taste, usually for free, sometimes for a very small fee.

Again, offlines can be a great way to get additional exposure to old world wines. Of course, if no one in the tasting group has or brings any then that won't happen...
Tasting events can also be a great way to get additional exposure to old world wines. There are good wines at these, there are but are they serving up some aged examples of great icons? Are they serving up one of the 6 bottles of a particular Burgundy that has made it to AU? Probably not...But are they worth going to? Of course..they can be a great way to taste some old world examples..

They're both good...It could be someone's experience with offlines is different and their tasting groups there don't have exposure to old world or less so.....But you only have to take a look at some of the ones posted on here to see that plenty do so I wouldn't eliminate either as something one should look at to get exposure to different types of wine...

[phillisc]

Cheers, OzzieW.

Not interested in the courses, but it's good that they are there for those who want them.

Talking of local wines, I noticed Grange, JR, Michael, Saltram's No. 1, both 9th Chambers, Leonay, RWT, Messenger, Show Reserve SS, St Peter's, etc. were on tasting at one venue at the weekend. Not bad for $20.

Sorry for the thread drift......

Wouldn't be in Adelaide...they'd charge you a lot more than that...NSW or Vic I expect.
Cheers
Craig

[Chris H]

Treasury Wine Estates tasting in Melbourne. Combination of dropping the ball for a few years and the simultaneous rise in availability of a wide range of imported wines would have put them under pressure I'd suggest.

Wine courses run by the Independents are usually pretty good because you get the knowledge of the presenters. Not cheap though.

[WAwineguy]

Apparently all roads lead to burgundy.... so i better get cracking.

Yes, I've discovered this recently.....

[TiggerK]

Plenty of mixed experiences with retail tastings, but that's like wine in general, mixed experiences at all price levels! It all adds to the learning experience and the good ones make up for the average ones (I'm too positive to call them bad).

Offlines on the other hand are always excellent, mainly because you're part of a small, like-minded group of people/friends, but also because the styles and age range are so much more varied (well IME anyway). I almost never see any aged examples of wine at retail tastings, and when I do, they're not usually aged enough. Hard to complain though when the cost/wines-on-offer ratio is often very good, but I've been to a bunch of tastings where there may be 400 wines on offer, but only 5-10 I would actually consider buying. Easy to be fussy in the face of so many wines though! Of course showing aged wines is not what retail is focused on, it's about selling the new stuff so you can drink or age it yourself.

Went to the TWE tasting here in Sydney last night, some very nice wines, plenty of OK stuff and a few disappointments, mainly when I see the price of something I like! As dave vino mentioned recently, $40 is the new $30, or as often seems the case, $120 is the new $70. Highlights for me were the Wynns John Riddoch 2012 and Messenger 2010, along with the Seppelt Drumborg Riesling 2015. Quite liked some of the Leo Buring's too (Leonay 14 was a bit shy though, but texture was great), their Clare Dry 2015 was rather nice for under $20 too I thought. Other decent wines for my taste included the Seppelt St Peters Shiraz 12 and Seppelt Sparkling Shiraz 04 (under crown seal) and yes the Grange 2010 was pretty lip smacking tasty too, if you can afford it!

Cheers
Tim

[phillisc]

Tim, thanks for the report .
Would be great if these tastings were held in Adelaide, perhaps they are, and I am not in the know.
Just interested if the Messenger that you refer to is the 2010 or is there another release for 2012.

I am buying the Wynns Childs (single vineyard release) for this year, and have the 2010 Messenger, however, news to me if there is a 2012 as well.

Cheers
Craig

[TiggerK]

Yeah sorry, it was the 2010 Messenger. Edited...

[Ozzie W]

Lots of great discussion in this thread.

Huon Hooke published an interesting article in the Fairfax press yesterday which I though was relevant to this discussion. His article was about the recent Chardonnay Pinot Noir 15 International Masterclass in the Yarra Valley, which compared Chardonnay and Pinot from France and Australia/NZ. I won't link to the article because it has some links to a wine retailer, but you can easily find it if you're interested.

I'll quote the relevant part of the article which caught my attention:
"Burgundy winemaker Benjamin Leroux was in the audience, and he confirmed that Burgundy winemakers are not seeking the same things in pinot as Australians. They want structure more than fruit. Varietal character is irrelevant to them. They don't even think of their wines as pinot noirs, they are Chambertin, Volnay or whatever the appellation happens to be. This is because they have only one white and one red grape to work with. The grape is simply a vector for the terroir of their vineyards."

The French have such a different perspective to us Aussies which is obviously reflected in their wine making style. It's not just my palate that needs to learn to appreciate the Old World style, I also need to change the way I think about and approach Old World wines. Perhaps only then will I truly appreciate and enjoy Old World wines.

[catchnrelease]

I think that's a huge point - discerning whether something is inferior or just different. If Burgundian winemakers seek more structured, savoury pinot which needs time in the cellar it's unfair to deem the earlier drinking Australian wines as better because they showed better in their youth. Try these wines again in 10-15 years and let's see what the results are like!

The only thing I can agree on is the superiority of screwcap over cork. No one needs their wines being scalped by cork when trying to show off their best!

[swirler]

Interesting, but Aussie wine scribes often act like they are part of the industry and not independent critics. And palates of both critics and punters are often aligned to the local wines.Try the same experiment in France and the results would be very different. The article makes it look all black and white. It clearly isn't.

The Brits are a pretty neutral bunch (at least compared with the two nationalities mentioned above. I don't see them abandoning Burgundy in favour of New World pinot. In fact, I've seen plenty of comments recently saying that good entry level Burgundy offers much better value. In Australia, the limited range/small volume of entry level pinot is almost as expensive as premium local pinot, so it's not a level playing field.