Wine list help please, again!

[Bobthebuilder]

My brother has organised a lunch for the old man for his 76th birthday, just the three boys, this Wednesday
He's booked this joint at the rocks called the cut, never heard of it, but he assured me Ill be happy with the wine list.
I kind of like the look of it, apart from the headings which I'm sure felix will have a field day with
So the safest bet with the two others is a barrosa shiraz or equivalent big red.
I was thinking the 2005 Rockford basket pressed shiraz, but it says limited next to it so there's a possibility they don't have it.
Everything on there I look at knowing I can get for 1/3 of the price and drink at home or BYO but I really don't care about the mark up, we are going there for lunch and I want to make sure they enjoy the wine. (And me too!)
I've never had the Rockford basket press, and from what I can gauge the 2005 is probably a better bet than the 2002 they have on the list?
So any advice would be greatly appreciated! Here's the list;

http://www.cutbarandgrill.com/wp-conten ... -06-17.pdf

[catchnrelease]

I reckon either the '05 or '02 BPs will be a pretty safe bet. Also the '06 Rockford Rifle Range would be a treat.

[felixp]

feel sorry for you guys in Sydney.
nice, balanced list with plenty of interesting choices.
but goodness, the prices!!!!!
300-400% mark-ups not even seen in the top-end London restaurants these days, actually getting to the absurd levels. I simply cannot see how there can be an excuse for such a strategy, I can only assume there are way too few top-end restaurants up there.

[Scotty vino]

hmmm $285 for an 05 BP?
The local pub here had 04/05/06 BP over the bar for $89 about 6 months ago.
Some of my mates were balking at that price.

[Polymer]

feel sorry for you guys in Sydney.
nice, balanced list with plenty of interesting choices.
but goodness, the prices!!!!!
300-400% mark-ups not even seen in the top-end London restaurants these days, actually getting to the absurd levels. I simply cannot see how there can be an excuse for such a strategy, I can only assume there are way too few top-end restaurants up there.

London markup is worse IMO....Top end UK and US restaurants are far worse than I think anything I've seen in AU...actually in a lot of countries it is worse...

Actually, these prices aren't even that bad...Most are just over 2 times the market rate. Rockford doesn't count because people aren't sourcing it at release price normally..and retail market for it is over 100. Going through most of the domestic stuff, it is almost all a little bit more than 2 times full retail. Imported stuff looks like it varies but it is about 2x market rate in AU (which is high to begin with).

Import selection is very ok..their domestic is a good mix of popular and trendy...

[griff]

May be a mistake but the 2005 Tommasi Amarone looks like a decent price if accurate. Would fit with the big red theme as well.

cheers

Carl

[dave vino]

The clonakilla Oriada at 108 is not bad for a $40 bottle, same for the SV which is a $90 bottle although might be too young. The pyramid valley cab franc would be an interesting wine.

[michel]

michael hall shiraz
cape mentelle zinfandel
vasse felix cab

would be an option for big red

[maybs]

Few good suggestions there. Sounds like a fun lunch. haven't been there for a while but the steaks are pretty decent and it has a nice vibe, kind of blimey and comfortable. The steak tasting plate is an interesting option if they still have it.

[TiggerK]

Dave's three would be my picks as well.

Clonakilla - O'Riada 2013 or SV 2013 - Tried at CD recently, both very good but need decanting, esp the O'Riada.
Pyramid Valley Cab Franc Howells 2010 - I really like this wine, good red and dark fruit with plenty of tannins.
plus
Craggy Range Le Sol 2010 is just over twice retail @ $247 so OK value relatively speaking. Another good wine.
Joseph Moda Cab Merlot 2012 could be well worth a look, again after a decant. Not tried that vintage, but usually enjoy the wine.

I'd go the 05 BP over the 02, but as I said recently, I'm not wow thrilled with them, $80-100 yeah great, but not at $285.

Enjoy the lunch!

[mjs]

08 Grant Burge Mesach might be worth a look as well, still exxy though

[felixp]

May be a mistake but the 2005 Tommasi Amarone looks like a decent price if accurate. Would fit with the big red theme as well.

cheers

Carl

I think that will be their second wine.

Love the $20 Bordeaux they are selling for $126 (2012 Teyssier)
But it is good value at the $20 I purchased it for!!!

No, I have eaten at the Ledbury and Square in London four months ago, and the wine list mark-ups are not even close to these.

Having said all that, if you ignore the prices, it is actually a very well put together wine list, totally unlike the one we
"discussed" a couple of months ago. hehehehehe

[felixp]

Dave's three would be my picks as well.

Clonakilla - O'Riada 2013 or SV 2013 - Tried at CD recently, both very good but need decanting, esp the O'Riada.
Pyramid Valley Cab Franc Howells 2010 - I really like this wine, good red and dark fruit with plenty of tannins.
plus
Craggy Range Le Sol 2010 is just over twice retail @ $247 so OK value relatively speaking. Another good wine.
Joseph Moda Cab Merlot 2012 could be well worth a look, again after a decant. Not tried that vintage, but usually enjoy the wine.

I'd go the 05 BP over the 02, but as I said recently, I'm not wow thrilled with them, $80-100 yeah great, but not at $285.

Enjoy the lunch!

Nice choices Tigger, I love the 2010 Le Sol, their best yet. Oh, and I purchased that from uncle Dan's at release a couple of years ago for $90. Hope that is ok to mention, remembering that this vintage is no longer the current retail seller.

[Polymer]

May be a mistake but the 2005 Tommasi Amarone looks like a decent price if accurate. Would fit with the big red theme as well.

cheers

Carl

I think that will be their second wine.

Love the $20 Bordeaux they are selling for $126 (2012 Teyssier)
But it is good value at the $20 I purchased it for!!!

No, I have eaten at the Ledbury and Square in London four months ago, and the wine list mark-ups are not even close to these.

Having said all that, if you ignore the prices, it is actually a very well put together wine list, totally unlike the one we
"discussed" a couple of months ago. hehehehehe

Again, you have to look at market value. In AU, Teyssier sells for almost 60 dollars. So if you look at what their restaurant price is compared to market, it is about 2 times.

"Dinner" by Heston is more than 2 times market...a lot more...like 3-5 times..
French Laundry is like 4-5 times...
The Ledbury is close to 2 times market..sometimes worse, sometimes a lot better..

You're combining the fact that AU has poor import pricing to the markup at a restaurant. I agree with you, import prices are generally terrible..but that is going to directly reflect what a restaurant can get them at and what they will be selling for...If you look at the general market price for those wines, they're all around 2 times market price. In the general scheme of wine list markups, I think most of the locals aren't thinking it is too bad..because it really isn't.

So I agree with you..the general price of imports on a restaurant list is not great compared to what you might find overseas..but you're wrong in thinking their markup really is that high..it is actually really comparable to the Ledbury markup wise and I think the Ledbury wine list pricing was pretty reasonable.

[Michael R]

The 02 BP is not a good example IMO.
I haven't had one for 3 years, but had plenty prior, never rated it higher than ok, and often quite poor.

Btw, have a great lunch...I've been a few times and enjoyed it each time.

[felixp]

2010 Teyssier purchased in Australia for $250/dozen, from a store in South Melbourne two years ago. 2012 admittedly purchased in HK, but it is supposedly cheaper than 2010 upon release anyway. If you paid $60 for it, you got seriously ripped off!!!!
2012 available on wine-searcher for between $15-30 anywhere, although no listing in Australia.

Also, please remember that restaurants purchase wholesale, and most critics calculate mark-ups on those prices. I purchased a case of Burg retailing for $88 per from my son's restaurant for $69, so I guess there is 20% or so in it, as a rule.

[felixp]

oh, and I agree on French Laundry, that place is bizarre. I didn't even think the food was that great, luckily I wasn't paying. Still, the yanks love it!!!!

Both Ledbury and Square are unexpectedly good value IMO, there are heaps of real bargains on both lists.

[Bobthebuilder]

wow, lots of great advice!
thanks everyone!!
I might save trying the BP for a byo dinner or home and grab one at auction.
Now to decide on the many good recommendations

[Polymer]

2010 Teyssier purchased in Australia for $250/dozen, from a store in South Melbourne two years ago. 2012 admittedly purchased in HK, but it is supposedly cheaper than 2010 upon release anyway. If you paid $60 for it, you got seriously ripped off!!!!
2012 available on wine-searcher for between $15-30 anywhere, although no listing in Australia.

Also, please remember that restaurants purchase wholesale, and most critics calculate mark-ups on those prices. I purchased a case of Burg retailing for $88 per from my son's restaurant for $69, so I guess there is 20% or so in it, as a rule.

2012 Teyssier is 56 on WS..although 2010 is cheaper (and no doubt better)

I know they buy wholesale..that isn't what I'm stating though..if you look at their wine list, everything is about 2 times the market rate.

Some places do a standard markup from wholesale..some do it from retail...some places don't even change their pricing for back vintages...but others keep their list up to date with what the market rate is.

The point is, it isn't that out of line for Australia markup prices..and in fact, I'd say some of it is pretty good in general....Pretty much anything around 2 times market (or less) is pretty good for a restaurant...I think some still go on the old formula of 2 x retail + 20 so anything less than that I think is good.

I agree with you that some of the prices look crazy..Teyssier is a great example..but if you're used to paying 50-60 retail for a wine does 120 at a restaurant seem unrealistic? Not really...but for someone that is buying it overseas for 20..yeah, looks crazy...

[sjw_11]

I can assure you most restaraunts in London are as bad or worse value than anything in Aus... At most of the City / Shoreditch / West End places I go you would be happy with just 2x retail as a price to pay.

The one that most irritated me was the bistro at Galvin in Spitalfields (at which the main restaraunt is, I believe, Michelin starred) and the cheapest wine was about £35 for a Jaboulet Secret de Famille red/white which should sell for about £8.

But certainly for any ~£10/bottle wines, then 3-4x is common, and for ~£20/bottle ~3x, in my experience.

And to give the comparison of buying an Aussie wine here (vs buying a French wine in Oz) then you can easily up paying ~4x the Dan Murphy price...

[swirler]

Dave's three would be my picks as well.

Clonakilla - O'Riada 2013 or SV 2013 - Tried at CD recently, both very good but need decanting, esp the O'Riada.
Pyramid Valley Cab Franc Howells 2010 - I really like this wine, good red and dark fruit with plenty of tannins.
plus
Craggy Range Le Sol 2010 is just over twice retail @ $247 so OK value relatively speaking. Another good wine.
Joseph Moda Cab Merlot 2012 could be well worth a look, again after a decant. Not tried that vintage, but usually enjoy the wine.

I'd go the 05 BP over the 02, but as I said recently, I'm not wow thrilled with them, $80-100 yeah great, but not at $285.

Enjoy the lunch!

Nice choices Tigger.

Yeah, 2013 O'Riada is a fine wine.

Teyssier has been floating around the auctions (circa $20) and isn't so nice. It may come around in the cellar ATM, but it's all green/'tobacco' at the moment.

[Polymer]

I can assure you most restaraunts in London are as bad or worse value than anything in Aus... At most of the City / Shoreditch / West End places I go you would be happy with just 2x retail as a price to pay..

Sam - That is my experience as well. Knowing what certain wines go for in the UK, I was shocked at the markup.

[felixp]

yea, $20 for 2010 Teyssier was the going rate, and good value at that. For $56, someone is taking the pi$$.

having been born, bred, schooled and raised in London, I will admit my experience is somewhat different, but I guess there are just so many restaurants that it would be pretty easy to have differing opinions. Plus, these days I am only there about twice a year, so my opinion are only those of a few top-end restaurants, the ones I named above are, IMO, remarkably good value, and certainly not 3x retail.

4x Dan Murphy's for Aussie stuff??? seriously??? where do you shop, Harrods?????

[JamieBahrain]

I buy bonded Aussie wine on sale from UK often half the price of Australia.

[maybs]

I had a beer in a pub in London once...

Back to the point...how was lunch Bob?

[Bobthebuilder]

So we ended up having the Rockford rifle range 2006
I was going to go the oriada, but hesitated wih it's youth (2013)
Mainly because I know my old mans tastes and he likes wines with a bit of age.
the RR was lovely, decanted and poured straight up, I was surprised at how well it drank within 5-10 mins in the glass.
An hour later it was barely any different.
The 2005 Rockford BP was sold out, the waitress tried to convince me the 2011 was great instead. I reckon they must have a bit of it try and move lol

[sjw_11]

For the record, I should have said buying an Aussie wine off a restaurant wine list ... obviously many bottle shop prices can be cheaper, the same, or often a bit more expensive than in Aus.

[one_twelve112]

The markup on that winelist is outrageous! Iwould suggest most are in the vacinity of 300%-500% on wholesale L.U.C. Are these typical of Sydney wine prices? (From Melbourne)

[maybs]

Nice one mate. Seem to see a bit more 2011 BP on wine lists than other vintages yeah.

And how was the food etc?

What was the mark up on the steak?

[Bobthebuilder]

Nice one mate. Seem to see a bit more 2011 BP on wine lists than other vintages yeah.

And how was the food etc?

What was the mark up on the steak?

The food was good, but unfortunately I was looking through this thread and cellar tracker reviews and the wine list all at the same time when the other two were looking through the menu and I was kind of on the spot when it came to ordering.
Totally unprepared and with the waitress looking at me with that smile that says "whenever your ready, now hurry TF up and give me your order!" I went with the signature beef dish that the other two had ordered.
After that I went through the menu and realised there were other things I probably would have preferred having, however the signature was fantastically well cooked and delicious too so I wont complain.
Its funny though, on the weekend I thought I'd get all prepared and sort the wine out (with the help of you guys ) and also what I was having to eat, and when it came to the crunch from the minute I opened my eyes that morning I was chasing my tail and ended up in the totally opposite situation - totally unprepared a faffing around like a goose

On the 2011 BP frequency on lists, yeah true, but I'm noticing it on a lot more SA & Victorian wines than just the BP, in a lot of places.
Makes me wonder if maybe the caution is a bit over hyped and also if the stock that wont move will start coming down in price a bit more in the next few years.
I also wonder what the reaction would be if you just make a lowball bid to the sommelier just for shits and giggles of course!