I rest my case...

[TravisW]

...why I will never buy another bottle of Penfolds: just read on an overseas wine forum that the largest supermarket in The Netherlands recently had a 50% off sale on all Penfolds (no Grange or 707 available). When you could pick up RWT for the equivalent of A$50, which about a third of the Aussie price, well then it's oblivious they are treating us with contempt.

I don't get any pleasure from putting the boot in, but nor do I get pleasure in seeing what has happened to Penfolds pricing structure here and overseas.

Cheers, Travis.

[ufo]

...why I will never buy another bottle of Penfolds: just read on an overseas wine forum that the largest supermarket in The Netherlands recently had a 50% off sale on all Penfolds (no Grange or 707 available). When you could pick up RWT for the equivalent of A$50, which about a third of the Aussie price, well then it's oblivious they are treating us with contempt.

I don't get any pleasure from putting the boot in, but nor do I get pleasure in seeing what has happened to Penfolds pricing structure here and overseas.

Cheers, Travis.

I've been doing that since 2004. There are so many better value for money wines out there. The last purchase I did was buying 2 cases of 2001 Bin 128 for $ 14.99 in 2004 (retail was $ 28.99) , which was a very good deal but these sort of things don't happen here anymore, only overseas. I also remember buying 1998 Bin 389 for $ 28.99 (retail was 48.99) in 2003 from a private shop.

[TravisW]

It's more so that an Aussie wine can be had in Europe for 30% of the going price in Adelaide. I'm just waiting for Mr Carrington to pop up and say they are now BOGOF in Sainsburys. I got used to bargain Aussie wines when we lived in the UK for 14 years... but I must admit I'm getting a bit sick of seeing these wines so cheap over there.

[dave vino]

It's all about 'What the market tolerates'. That's why they can sell Mercs and Beemers for twice the price here, as that's what the market tolerates. In the UK it's not what the market tolerates

Only one solution as you suggest, stop buying them.

[Mike Hawkins]

...why I will never buy another bottle of Penfolds: just read on an overseas wine forum that the largest supermarket in The Netherlands recently had a 50% off sale on all Penfolds (no Grange or 707 available). When you could pick up RWT for the equivalent of A$50, which about a third of the Aussie price, well then it's oblivious they are treating us with contempt.

I don't get any pleasure from putting the boot in, but nor do I get pleasure in seeing what has happened to Penfolds pricing structure here and overseas.

Cheers, Travis.

This is not limited to Penfolds. There are tons of Aussie wines that I've bought in the US and UK at way below 50 % of the Aussie price..... Made by Small companies and listed companies alike

[n4sir]

...why I will never buy another bottle of Penfolds: just read on an overseas wine forum that the largest supermarket in The Netherlands recently had a 50% off sale on all Penfolds (no Grange or 707 available). When you could pick up RWT for the equivalent of A$50, which about a third of the Aussie price, well then it's oblivious they are treating us with contempt.

I don't get any pleasure from putting the boot in, but nor do I get pleasure in seeing what has happened to Penfolds pricing structure here and overseas.

Cheers, Travis.

This is not limited to Penfolds. There are tons of Aussie wines that I've bought in the US and UK at way below 50 % of the Aussie price..... Made by Small companies and listed companies alike

Very true, and not just for Aussie wines too. WET has a lot to do with the inflated prices we pay here, not to mention the value of the dollar at any time which will effect how much something can be discounted overseas. The individual retailer can't be left out of this argument either - some just decide to dump things that don't move, it happens here too.

Cheers,
Ian

[phillisc]

I think if you are living overseas you are indeed most fortunate when it comes to buying any wine, not just bloody Pennies.

I had an opportunity to buy 02 and 04 Bolly LGA for $150 and Mike and Jamie, you would say nothing special about that...in fact not even a really good price.

The difference is critical mass...hundreds of millions of potential buyers not just the 2-3 million we might have here
Yes WET and the dollar plays a part but something still stinks about the constant gouge Australia companies ( large...and small unfortunately) have for their domestic consumers.
Because we live at the bottom of the world, they think we don't get out much and treat us accordingly.

This rant could go on...

Cheers
Craig

[Scotty vino]

How else are they gonna pay for the new Magill estate cellar door front entrance?

[ufo]

...why I will never buy another bottle of Penfolds: just read on an overseas wine forum that the largest supermarket in The Netherlands recently had a 50% off sale on all Penfolds (no Grange or 707 available). When you could pick up RWT for the equivalent of A$50, which about a third of the Aussie price, well then it's oblivious they are treating us with contempt.

I don't get any pleasure from putting the boot in, but nor do I get pleasure in seeing what has happened to Penfolds pricing structure here and overseas.

Cheers, Travis.

This is not limited to Penfolds. There are tons of Aussie wines that I've bought in the US and UK at way below 50 % of the Aussie price..... Made by Small companies and listed companies alike

That's right, it is not limited to Penfolds but you guys are missing a one important point that is Penfolds have been increasing his domestic prices at a ridiculous rate way above inflation. A lot of wineries have not increased their prices at all in past years. There are many examples but a very good one is Kalleske, any of their prices have not increased a cent since they got in to the market way back in 2003 or 04.

[felixp]

I can only think it must be a combination of a small market and profiteering. The prices of imported wines in Australia are bizarre, even allowing for WET and GST.
It should be remembered that the vast majority of Australian wine makers also pay GST and WET, and therefore for Australian wines that are cheaper overseas (read:most Australian wines) then the only plausible reason is that Australian wine buyers are being taken for suckers.
It is not just Penfolds, at least as far as I can see, it is about 80-85% of all Australian wines.
But if you think Australia is bad…. come to China!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The taxes in China are almost exactly the same as Australia, but the wines are about twice the price!!!!!!!!!!
The reason? …profiteering to a small market, same as in Aus
Thank God HK is a 10 minute train ride away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DJ1980]

Yep, I am doing the same. Haven't bought anything for a few years now... Such a shame because some of the wines are very good.

$350 for 707... Come on....

[maybs]

I would have thought it is a combination of small market, profiteering and the fact that we have a higher average wage/standard of living than a lot of places and so the market adjusts to that. Same reason housing is expensive here, food is expensive here and all that jazz.

[felixp]

I would have thought it is a combination of small market, profiteering and the fact that we have a higher average wage/standard of living than a lot of places and so the market adjusts to that. Same reason housing is expensive here, food is expensive here and all that jazz.

housing expensive? errrrer, try Hong Kong or Shenzhen, let alone Shanghai.

The problem Penfolds will face is that it's "darling" status for top bracket wines will, other than Grange, collapse sooner or later, just like the Aussie cult wines collapsed in the early 00's. For the money, there are just so many better products out there when you are overseas. $350 for 707 is a complete joke, but the bigger joke is the north of $60 they want you to pay for 407, which is a very pedestrian wine at it's very best. Staying away from Bordeaux and Burgundy, my favourite regions, you can buy dozens and dozens of wines like Rioja and Jura that are so much more interesting, complex and satisfying than 407 for half it's price!!!!!! Had an 08 Rioja the other night that I would honestly prefer to drink over every Pennies wine other than Grange and 707, and it cost me $29. Unfortunately, I immediately jumped onto wine-searcher in the hope of shoving a dozen into my Aussie cellar, but it is not available there

And maybe you get the feeling that I am biased against Australian wines (which I am not) but I went to the Suckling extravaganza in HK a couple of weeks ago, and the 2010 St Henri was there…. all of myself and the other three guys I was with (all Australian) would not have placed it in our top 20 wines tasted that day. But due to clever, and some might say unscrupulous, marketing, the stuff is now being snapped up at over $100 a bottle back home!!!!!!! now then, what was that old story about the tulip bulbs again???

[Michael R]

Felix, no more posts about China, at least for a while please.
You've made your point many times, and it's not a relevant response in this case.

Maybs, I assume is talking about supply and demand, and referencing that Aus is a soft market.
So no need to get all 'China', on it, most people are acutely aware of the points you've made before you made them. Spare us, or at least me, for a while!

Fwiw, I've enjoyed your posts generally, just think a change of pace would be nice

[maybs]

I'm not going to bite. It is about supply and demand, and maximising profit here so they can still afford to sell their brand into other markets where the supply/demand factor may not be the same. As Michael says, Australia is an easy kill for these companies. And yes it may mean it seems like we get the raw end of the stick but it could be worse than living in Oz and paying a premium for wine...I mean, since our housing is so cheap we can afford the extra for booze, right Felix?


I'm more upset about the cost of muscle cars here, but maybe that is just me

[Mike Hawkins]

I did some checking online, and it would seem the last 2 releases of most Penfolds wines in the UK are now priced relatively closely to the Aussie price. Additionally, Grange release price has more than doubled in the US in the past 4 years...

[maybs]

I did some checking online, and it would seem the last 2 releases of most Penfolds wines in the UK are now priced relatively closely to the Aussie price. Additionally, Grange release price has more than doubled in the US in the past 4 years...

Bit what about the muscle cars Mike?!?

[sjw_11]

I certainly am not seeing the bargains I had heard of in the past around in the UK now...
The best I can get at my local Tesco is Jacobs Creek or Houghtons' white label for about $15-20 Aussie!

Most of the specialist wine stores I visit stock only a very token range of Aussie wine (oddly, still normally the block buster RPJ reds, e.g. Hobbs Shiraz) ... but to be fair, I haven't been seeking out Aussie wines as what is the point of living in Europe and not drinking Euro wine?

[sjw_11]

In Singapore I got very good deals on Aussie wine, but only at the >$40 AUD price point and only be reference to how expensive cheap wine was (minimum price $20AUD due to the taxes there) and to the fact most of the wines were back vintages ex people's investment collections being flogged off (so there was an element of risk to trade against the reward)

[felixp]

I think the point Maybs is making, and I 100% agree with, is that Australian wine should be cheapest in Australia!!!
It just doesn't seem fair that it is cheaper elsewhere!!! However, I will point out that most of the real "bargains" on Australian wine overseas is not on release, but when it is on sale, which is simply because no-one bought the stuff in the first place.
I would be interested to know what percentage of Penfolds is consumed locally, and what percentage is exported.

[felixp]

I'll leave the "C" country out.
I guess anyone here who has been to the snow will know the level of gouging that occurs in the supermarkets at Buller, Falls Creek, Perisher etc. … it is a joke. Well, the same can be said in Europe, most wine products are 50% more expensive at 2000m than at sea level over there. Despite this, I walked into the Carrefour in Val d'Isere this February, and if I wanted I could pick up 2008 RWT for the equivalent of about $80

[sjw_11]

The best I could do on Tesco Direct website right now (in a straight 6!) (similar to prices I have seen in store):

Penfolds Yattarna 2007 - AU$112
St Hallet Old Block 2010 - AU$60
Penfolds Cellar Reserve Pinot 2007 - AU$56
Willunga 100 "The Tithing" Grenache 2009 - AU$34
Jacobs Creek Steingarten Riesling 2011 - AU$28
Robert Oatley McLaren Vale Shiraz - AU$28
Tim Adams Clare Shiraz - AU$24
Wirra Wirra Church Block - AU$24
Ringbolt Cabernet - AU$21
Hardy's "Crest" Rose - AU$21
Houghton Classic Red - AU$19 (this is the range Uncle Dan's has regularly sold at AU$8)
Yalumba Y Series Viognier - AU$19 (ditto)
Jacobs Creek Sparkling white - AU$19

Anyway I think you get the point... unless the AUD goes back to 60c I dont think Aussie wines are necessarily all that cheap overseas.

[Michael R]

:D I'll leave the "C" country out.
I guess anyone here who has been to the snow will know the level of gouging that occurs in the supermarkets at Buller, Falls Creek, Perisher etc. … it is a joke. Well, the same can be said in Europe, most wine products are 50% more expensive at 2000m than at sea level over there. Despite this, I walked into the Carrefour in Val d'Isere this February, and if I wanted I could pick up 2008 RWT for the equivalent of about $80

Thanks Felix!
I do enjoy your posts typically, you drink some excellent wines.
Also I visited that wine shop in Lyon you posted about previously here or elsewhere, fantastic spot with cool cellar area, picked up some keenly priced Malconsorts too.

I had that 08 RWT earlier this year, I didn't have major expectations but really enjoyed it. Also I rated the 2010 RWT quite highly, but have only tried at a couple of tastings. More French oak please Pennies!

Hi Sam....have you stopped buying Oz wine now you're in UK?

[Polymer]

However, I will point out that most of the real "bargains" on Australian wine overseas is not on release, but when it is on sale, which is simply because no-one bought the stuff in the first place.

Exactly...the release prices aren't too far off...right now a good amount of newer stuff will seem a bit more expensive because there was stuff going out when the AUD was over 1 USD and now it has dropped, leaving it in local currency the same but more expensive if you're spending AUD. Same was when the AUD was increasing..stuff was being sold when the AUD was lower so the prices seemed ridiculously low to Aussies when the AUD appreciated. But outside of that, the difference is the huge sales..places trying to blow out their stock because it didn't sell all that well..You see less of that now than before but there was a period of time where I was buying a good amount of Aussie stuff in the US because the blowout sales made the prices stupidly low.

[Michael R]

The other consideration for Pennies is Oz auctions.
I picked up some 08&10 BinA Chardonnay recently for ~$50. Often see recent vintage RWTs for under $100, Bin389 for around $50 etc.

Thinking about it, most of my wine purchases these days are online, and mostly auction, with somewhat less overseas action too.

Edit...actually is this a fair post here?
I know Gavin doesnt stock Pennies but very happy to remove if required.

[cuttlefish]

Damn, that BinA is good juice.
I used to drink a bit of that.

When I was a lad.

[Tom A]

Interesting discussion. I'm not much of a TWE fan but I was actually trying to work out some of Penfolds pricing the other day. I have family in Hong Kong so I do buy regularly there. However this years Penfolds release the offers in HK so far have hardly been amazing. From what I have seen 407 sells for more than 389. Most offers have been around the $50+ mark for the 2012s 389 and 407 as a guide. If the street price here in Australia is about $60 a bottle then when you take our taxes into consideration TWE may actually have a higher wholesale price in HK. Admittedly the pricing here is so competitive that the retailers would be making bugger all out of Penfolds so it probably not a far comparison.

In my limited maths I worked out one of the cheapest ways to buy this years release (Grange included) was using the Tourist Refund Scheme. That is buy your Pennies here, claim the GST and 14.5% WET back on your way out of Australia. That obviously doesn't help those that store their wine here.

One place in HK does have in excess of 6700 bottles of 2012 407 to sell and 15000 bottles of 2012 389 to sell so it will be interesting to see what prices they go for if they don't sell. The 2010 St Henri is on sale this weekend at about $75 a bottle in HK which is about what it was here so maybe their pricing is turing a corner. I guess they just try and get the most they can for their product wherever they can sell it.

Cheers
TA

[Mivvy]

Not sure that you can use TRS to claim back GST etc as its not possible to take the wine through security to take on the plane. Although I am not sure how strict the TRS staff are in insisting that you have the goods with you when making the reclaim.

[Polymer]

They can verify the wine going through before the security checkpoint.
"
If you want to make a TRS claim for liquids, aerosols or gels that you are not able to take on board because of these limits, take your goods to the Customs and Border Protection Client Services counter before they are packed in your checked luggage and checked in with the airline.
"

[Mivvy]

Great - thats useful to know! It was not something I had even considered possible.

I have not seen much Penfolds about in the US. Although have not been looking for it. The discrepancy I see on pricing of Italian wines is pretty big though - even with the AUD dropping against the USD recently - in many cases half the price of what they are in Australia.