Sounds like a stupid or rude question.
Sorry about that. Neither is intended. What I mean is should the newcomer expect to have trouble finding a palatable wine or expect to find many, almost immediately?
To put it another way: is wine drinking a sort of 'acquired taste' ?
Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
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Michael McNally
- Posts: 2091
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:06 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Hi Abrogard
Welcome to the forum!
interesting question.
There are some aspects of wine that are possibly unpleasant to newcomers. Some whites like young Hunter semillons have a very high level of acidity (like a really tart grapefuit) which I still find offputting in some examples. Some red wines are quite dry and tannic (akin to the aftertaste of really strong tea) which some might not like. There is also a lot of stuff out there that is simply very sweet and/or lacking in acidity precisely to appeal to those people who don't like eating grapefruit or sucking on tea bags.
I guess the best thing about wine is that it comes in a myriad of flavours and textures. There's almost certainly something out there that will appeal to you. And generally, as you try different things, your palate appreciates different things. The boy who hates olives ends up loving them.
Please share your journey here. Taste something and if it's not your cup of tea (boom tish), say why, and people here can possibly point you in another direction.
Cheers
Michael
Welcome to the forum!
interesting question. There are some aspects of wine that are possibly unpleasant to newcomers. Some whites like young Hunter semillons have a very high level of acidity (like a really tart grapefuit) which I still find offputting in some examples. Some red wines are quite dry and tannic (akin to the aftertaste of really strong tea) which some might not like. There is also a lot of stuff out there that is simply very sweet and/or lacking in acidity precisely to appeal to those people who don't like eating grapefruit or sucking on tea bags.
I guess the best thing about wine is that it comes in a myriad of flavours and textures. There's almost certainly something out there that will appeal to you. And generally, as you try different things, your palate appreciates different things. The boy who hates olives ends up loving them.
Please share your journey here. Taste something and if it's not your cup of tea (boom tish), say why, and people here can possibly point you in another direction.
Cheers
Michael
Bonum Vinum Laetificat Cor Hominis
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Simple reply, wine is meant to be nice, at least to those who enjoy it. Read tasting notes posted here, try some of the wines that seem appealing to you. Most of all, try different wines from different regions to find your own preferences. I have to agree with Michael on young Hunter Valley semillons but you may enjoy their mouth-puckering drying acidity. But if you are patient with the better ones they can age to become much more approachable and interesting. There are no hard and fast rules, you don't have to particularly like a wine to be able to appreciate the style, the flavours, the potential for the wine to change, improve on the palate after appropriate cellaring.
Last edited by daz on Sun May 15, 2011 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
My best advice would be to get along to your local Dan Murphy's. They have in store tastings friday and saturdays. You get to taste a wide variety of wines for free. They normally have about half a dozen on tasting at a time. A very in-expensive way to try lots of wines. Check their website for times etc. Once you find one you like come to Auswine and order it from Gavin (I hope that nullifies the DM plug (sorry Gavin)).
never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Thanks for the replies, the interest and the replies. Much appreciated.
I think if we look at the replies the answer has got to be: 'No'. Wine is not meant to be 'nice'. It is an acquired taste.
I could say to someone who'd never done it - "Try coffee" and they might try coffee and almost without regard to which coffee or how prepared they'd like it. Though it comes in many varieties and preparations.
Or apples might be a good example: most people like apples, straight off, though they gain a preference for this one or that one.
And so on. I'm thinking along those lines.
But if I say to someone, as I did to my wife, "Try Wine", it is almost inevitable that she'll dislike what she tries. Which she did.
And then if I try shopping around to find something to appeal to her taste it is almost equally inevitable that I'll have lots of failures and frustrations, which I did.
Now it is no use appealing to the 'high end' of the market here, now, of course. This whole question is aimed at the bulk of the 'market' - i.e. the average, the bulk, the norm, in wines if such a thing can be predicated.
I perhaps should have put the question like that: If a random sampling were made of the table wines of the world by a complete stranger to wines, or a group of strangers (getting really scientific here), would their experience be pleasant on the whole or unpleasant?
The answer is: unpleasant.
Michael's first paragraph summed it all up rather neatly I think, if we substitute the word "generally" where Michael has written "some".
Daz reinforces the contention by implication where he says "...if you are patient.." .
And Rens also reinforces by implication where he says "...to try lots of wines..." (in order to find something palatable).
If we call that initial experience 'getting your feet wet' it is interesting that even after that first immersion, is one is patient and one does 'try lots of wines' one can still find it difficult to navigate through the hundreds of offerings in such to a way to avoid numerous unpleasant experiences.
Reputation and price being virtually valueless. Many a cheap wine with no reputation being much better than many an expensive wine with a vast reputation - read any wine critic at virtually any time... for instance the Spectator critic in this latest issue.
Myself I have no problem. If a wine is undrinkable I mix it with something. I've been a drinker all my life, uncritical, 'pig' drinker. I've drunk vast quantities of wine in the past, in my younger days and couldn't even tell you what wine it was - white wines with the girlfriends, red wines with the boys, gulping it all down with much enjoyment.
I'm happy when I find something 'nice' and affordable - such as the cleanskin I came across the other day, a beautiful table wine to my mind - but I drink virtually anything, sticking to my favourite grape variety mainly and avoid paying large (or even moderate) prices for wine which often, as the critics say, is overpriced and overestimated.
My interest, sparked by my recent experiences with my (new) wife and attempts to open the world of wine to her is in that question I posed: under/behind all the hype what is wine, really, at bottom? The fruit of the grape, grape juice, processed in such a way that it will keep with a result at the end that is what? Commonly 'nice' or commonly 'nasty' ?
Because the whole world flocks to the door of the wine seller eager to become acquainted with wine and millions (billions?) of words are spewed out about wine at all levels of sophistication and billions of dollars are spent on it and millions of people are floundering around drinking rubbish (relatively speaking of course, one man's meat is another man's....) and paying too much for it because they simply can't 'find their way' through the arcane world of wine.....
And there's nothing at the doorway! There's a sign at the doorway that says 'welcome to the wonderful world of wine' but it doesn't say 'Be prepared for a long hard road' or 'be prepared for a basically unpleasant experience until you become acclimatised, inured...
Like what am I saying? I'm saying that to my great surprise I realise now there should be a sign at the entrance that says "Wine is basically unpleasant - be prepared to go slowly and grow a tolerance and liking..."
I think if we look at the replies the answer has got to be: 'No'. Wine is not meant to be 'nice'. It is an acquired taste.
I could say to someone who'd never done it - "Try coffee" and they might try coffee and almost without regard to which coffee or how prepared they'd like it. Though it comes in many varieties and preparations.
Or apples might be a good example: most people like apples, straight off, though they gain a preference for this one or that one.
And so on. I'm thinking along those lines.
But if I say to someone, as I did to my wife, "Try Wine", it is almost inevitable that she'll dislike what she tries. Which she did.
And then if I try shopping around to find something to appeal to her taste it is almost equally inevitable that I'll have lots of failures and frustrations, which I did.
Now it is no use appealing to the 'high end' of the market here, now, of course. This whole question is aimed at the bulk of the 'market' - i.e. the average, the bulk, the norm, in wines if such a thing can be predicated.
I perhaps should have put the question like that: If a random sampling were made of the table wines of the world by a complete stranger to wines, or a group of strangers (getting really scientific here), would their experience be pleasant on the whole or unpleasant?
The answer is: unpleasant.
Michael's first paragraph summed it all up rather neatly I think, if we substitute the word "generally" where Michael has written "some".
Daz reinforces the contention by implication where he says "...if you are patient.." .
And Rens also reinforces by implication where he says "...to try lots of wines..." (in order to find something palatable).
If we call that initial experience 'getting your feet wet' it is interesting that even after that first immersion, is one is patient and one does 'try lots of wines' one can still find it difficult to navigate through the hundreds of offerings in such to a way to avoid numerous unpleasant experiences.
Reputation and price being virtually valueless. Many a cheap wine with no reputation being much better than many an expensive wine with a vast reputation - read any wine critic at virtually any time... for instance the Spectator critic in this latest issue.
Myself I have no problem. If a wine is undrinkable I mix it with something. I've been a drinker all my life, uncritical, 'pig' drinker. I've drunk vast quantities of wine in the past, in my younger days and couldn't even tell you what wine it was - white wines with the girlfriends, red wines with the boys, gulping it all down with much enjoyment.
I'm happy when I find something 'nice' and affordable - such as the cleanskin I came across the other day, a beautiful table wine to my mind - but I drink virtually anything, sticking to my favourite grape variety mainly and avoid paying large (or even moderate) prices for wine which often, as the critics say, is overpriced and overestimated.
My interest, sparked by my recent experiences with my (new) wife and attempts to open the world of wine to her is in that question I posed: under/behind all the hype what is wine, really, at bottom? The fruit of the grape, grape juice, processed in such a way that it will keep with a result at the end that is what? Commonly 'nice' or commonly 'nasty' ?
Because the whole world flocks to the door of the wine seller eager to become acquainted with wine and millions (billions?) of words are spewed out about wine at all levels of sophistication and billions of dollars are spent on it and millions of people are floundering around drinking rubbish (relatively speaking of course, one man's meat is another man's....) and paying too much for it because they simply can't 'find their way' through the arcane world of wine.....
And there's nothing at the doorway! There's a sign at the doorway that says 'welcome to the wonderful world of wine' but it doesn't say 'Be prepared for a long hard road' or 'be prepared for a basically unpleasant experience until you become acclimatised, inured...
Like what am I saying? I'm saying that to my great surprise I realise now there should be a sign at the entrance that says "Wine is basically unpleasant - be prepared to go slowly and grow a tolerance and liking..."
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
I disagree. There will always be a section of people who will instantly dislike any product you mention on first taste, be it wine, apples, beer, scotch, mushrooms, onions etc. Others will be the opposite. For example, how many women do you know who on first impressions dislike beer or scotch? The difference with wine is the variability of the options. At the end of the day, all beers are going to be "beery" and all scotches taste like "scotch" (albeit with different nuances) & all apples "appley". When you look at wine, and account for red, white, sparkling, rose, sparkling rose etc the differences are so profound that some may instantly like white and instantly dislike red (or they may instantly like or dislike them all). With more exposure they may find "styles" within the categories they dislike which are actually OK, e.g. a white wine drinker finding they enjoy soft bodied Grenache or Pinot, the same way a person who hates mushrooms may find there is in fact one type they actually dont mind.
Conversely some (like myself) will find they pretty much instantly like or appreciate most styles of wine, while they may pass up other drinks (such as alcopops or pre-mixed rum & cola) which much of the "average" market consumes with glee. And for the record, to your coffe example, I know many people who hate coffee and can never understand the desire to consume it.
Sam
Conversely some (like myself) will find they pretty much instantly like or appreciate most styles of wine, while they may pass up other drinks (such as alcopops or pre-mixed rum & cola) which much of the "average" market consumes with glee. And for the record, to your coffe example, I know many people who hate coffee and can never understand the desire to consume it.
Sam
------------------------------------
Sam
Sam
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Wine is meant to be nice.
I got into wine nearly immeadiately - someone gave me a nice bottle of red on my 18th (1997 St Henri) drinking it was a most revealing experience, one that I needed to repeat. (At which point I discovered the price was out of my price range), so hit up various Shiraz's to find styles that I liked (and yes I did discover lots of mass produced dross). Prior to this I believed that wine was Red, White, post this I believed that wine was Red, White and Shiraz.
Cut to many years later I have a much broader understanding of wine. I have a much better idea of what styles and varietals (and regions) that I prefer, to the point some might suggest a small level of wine snobbery. I absolutely love matching food with wine, and am very happy when it comes together and the result is better than the sum of it's individual parts.
That's my abridged story with regard to wine. If I were to tell my wife's it would be completely different (we have predominantly similar palates though), although it was the same "wine" (St Henri - a '95 in 2006) that got her into wine - at a large dinner party before we were even a couple that got her into it, and she's had some dramatic palate changes before / after and during pregnancies.
Some people just won't like it. I don't think it's an aquired taste any more than any food or drink is. Apples (as used earlier) - we get introduced to these typically while very young by our parents, have someone who's never had an apple and they'll likely find it odd, some will love it immeadiately some will just not. What about vegemite - most Australian's think it's a completely normal flavour from childhood, give it to an immigrant (even from a Anglo Saxon background) and they'll typically not enjoy it...
I got into wine nearly immeadiately - someone gave me a nice bottle of red on my 18th (1997 St Henri) drinking it was a most revealing experience, one that I needed to repeat. (At which point I discovered the price was out of my price range), so hit up various Shiraz's to find styles that I liked (and yes I did discover lots of mass produced dross). Prior to this I believed that wine was Red, White, post this I believed that wine was Red, White and Shiraz.
Cut to many years later I have a much broader understanding of wine. I have a much better idea of what styles and varietals (and regions) that I prefer, to the point some might suggest a small level of wine snobbery. I absolutely love matching food with wine, and am very happy when it comes together and the result is better than the sum of it's individual parts.
That's my abridged story with regard to wine. If I were to tell my wife's it would be completely different (we have predominantly similar palates though), although it was the same "wine" (St Henri - a '95 in 2006) that got her into wine - at a large dinner party before we were even a couple that got her into it, and she's had some dramatic palate changes before / after and during pregnancies.
Some people just won't like it. I don't think it's an aquired taste any more than any food or drink is. Apples (as used earlier) - we get introduced to these typically while very young by our parents, have someone who's never had an apple and they'll likely find it odd, some will love it immeadiately some will just not. What about vegemite - most Australian's think it's a completely normal flavour from childhood, give it to an immigrant (even from a Anglo Saxon background) and they'll typically not enjoy it...
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Hmmm...
what I mean is - prior to introducing a newcomer to wine should I prepare them by saying something like "It might take you a while to find something you like" ?
I think so.
Now.
what I mean is - prior to introducing a newcomer to wine should I prepare them by saying something like "It might take you a while to find something you like" ?
I think so.
Now.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Yes, wine is meant to be nice!! I agree with your fundamental concept, i.e Yes, it is an acquired taste for most, but in the right context, it can easily be enjoyed by a newcomer, it just depends on the circumstances.
A slightly sweeter, fullbodied, american oaked, good quality, juicy red with a bit of age/soft tannins and taken with good robust food would be a nice introduction. Even better to have it following another favourite alcoholic drink to initially relax the preconceived notions of palate and mind. I'll never forget a very young 1998 Bin 707 I had for a birthday lunch wine back in my early wine days around 2000. Hard to dislike all that american oak at the time, especially I enjoy coconut, vanilla and blackcurrant flavours. Maybe a good start would be to let us know what kind of flavours your wife enjoys, and maybe some here could suggest a few wines and food combinations to continue your attempts??
I have to disagree with your coffee statement, like beer/olives/chilli etc, coffee also takes time for most to really enjoy, although the caffeine hit does accelerate that effect in the brain!
I also believe that more expensive wines are easier and nicer to drink 'generally', although they normally require more time to be at their best. But only up to a certain price point, say $40/50. Beyond that it becomes a lottery. But less of a lottery than the sub $15 market, which has many faulty, harsh, thin, weedy, porty and plain awful wines mixed amongst the awesome bargains of quality value for money stuff!!
I think it also depends on palate experiences and age, a 20 year old will take more persuading than a 30 year old, especially if the 30 year old has a more adventurous palate. So many people never venture beyond bland chinese takeaways, KFC and meat w/ 3 veg that their palates will always find it difficult to accept or enjoy different flavour concepts. Many of us would have started off with sweeter, oaky, buttery styled wines, including sweet bubbly, maybe even 80's 'wine cooler' styles. And over time it develops, changes and refines of course. Where am I going with this, just rambling really.....
Let's see if we can get your wife to like wine, we like a challenge!!
Cheers
Tim
A slightly sweeter, fullbodied, american oaked, good quality, juicy red with a bit of age/soft tannins and taken with good robust food would be a nice introduction. Even better to have it following another favourite alcoholic drink to initially relax the preconceived notions of palate and mind. I'll never forget a very young 1998 Bin 707 I had for a birthday lunch wine back in my early wine days around 2000. Hard to dislike all that american oak at the time, especially I enjoy coconut, vanilla and blackcurrant flavours. Maybe a good start would be to let us know what kind of flavours your wife enjoys, and maybe some here could suggest a few wines and food combinations to continue your attempts??
I have to disagree with your coffee statement, like beer/olives/chilli etc, coffee also takes time for most to really enjoy, although the caffeine hit does accelerate that effect in the brain!
I also believe that more expensive wines are easier and nicer to drink 'generally', although they normally require more time to be at their best. But only up to a certain price point, say $40/50. Beyond that it becomes a lottery. But less of a lottery than the sub $15 market, which has many faulty, harsh, thin, weedy, porty and plain awful wines mixed amongst the awesome bargains of quality value for money stuff!!
I think it also depends on palate experiences and age, a 20 year old will take more persuading than a 30 year old, especially if the 30 year old has a more adventurous palate. So many people never venture beyond bland chinese takeaways, KFC and meat w/ 3 veg that their palates will always find it difficult to accept or enjoy different flavour concepts. Many of us would have started off with sweeter, oaky, buttery styled wines, including sweet bubbly, maybe even 80's 'wine cooler' styles. And over time it develops, changes and refines of course. Where am I going with this, just rambling really.....
Let's see if we can get your wife to like wine, we like a challenge!!
Cheers
Tim
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
I would ask you to define nice.
What would you consider to be nice food? Sweet or Salty? Smooth or Spicy? Sour or Bitter? Vegetably or Fruity?
What would you consider to be a nice experience to get from wine? Relaxing or Inspiring? Soothing or Exciting? Calming or Sexy? Moreish or Fulfilling? Addictive or Satisfying? It usually comes down to personality.
I disagree that wine isn't meant to be nice. Some people have a sweet tooth, but I know a number of people that hate desserts. You can't define desserts as being "nice" when some people love them and some people hate them. Personally I dislike chocolate cake - it may be nice for you but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Likewise with bitter vegetables (like radicchio and rocket), not a fan myself but they appear to be wildly popular in cafes and supermarkets and the italians especially seem to love it. Some people love chilli (peppers), others faint at the first sight of spiciness. Bitter vegetables and super-spicy food may be acquired tastes, but many italians or south east asians (respectively) will tell you that it is nice - or that they love it. Wasabi especially polarises people - I love the stuff.
If your wife has a sweet tooth, introduce her to a low alcohol sweet wine like a Moscato or Brachetto. If she finds red wines to be too intense then try a light Pinot or Rosé.
Wine is meant to be enjoyed. If you like Moscato or Sauvignon Blanc then by all means drink it. Others be damned.
What would you consider to be nice food? Sweet or Salty? Smooth or Spicy? Sour or Bitter? Vegetably or Fruity?
What would you consider to be a nice experience to get from wine? Relaxing or Inspiring? Soothing or Exciting? Calming or Sexy? Moreish or Fulfilling? Addictive or Satisfying? It usually comes down to personality.
I disagree that wine isn't meant to be nice. Some people have a sweet tooth, but I know a number of people that hate desserts. You can't define desserts as being "nice" when some people love them and some people hate them. Personally I dislike chocolate cake - it may be nice for you but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Likewise with bitter vegetables (like radicchio and rocket), not a fan myself but they appear to be wildly popular in cafes and supermarkets and the italians especially seem to love it. Some people love chilli (peppers), others faint at the first sight of spiciness. Bitter vegetables and super-spicy food may be acquired tastes, but many italians or south east asians (respectively) will tell you that it is nice - or that they love it. Wasabi especially polarises people - I love the stuff.
If your wife has a sweet tooth, introduce her to a low alcohol sweet wine like a Moscato or Brachetto. If she finds red wines to be too intense then try a light Pinot or Rosé.
Wine is meant to be enjoyed. If you like Moscato or Sauvignon Blanc then by all means drink it. Others be damned.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Yes, we have a problem with the poor English of my query, in the first place, don't we?
I'm not good at such things.
Believe me, I'm struggling here to find the right words to express my query. Struggling. Not finding them.
Perhaps if I can resort to exaggeration, hyperbole.
Which of these statements would be nearer to the truth?
1. Come and have some wine, you're bound to like it.
2. Look out, that's wine there - you probably won't like it.
I think (now) No. 2.
I know it is 'meant to be nice' - but the designer is working from the position of his/her own palate, right? And may well produce something which requires a specific palate or gustatory history to enjoy. So they might mean it but not produce it (for the general masses).
I'm not querying what is 'meant', I'm querying the situation today as is.
The more I think about it the more obvious Number 2 becomes.
I'm not good at such things.
Believe me, I'm struggling here to find the right words to express my query. Struggling. Not finding them.
Perhaps if I can resort to exaggeration, hyperbole.
Which of these statements would be nearer to the truth?
1. Come and have some wine, you're bound to like it.
2. Look out, that's wine there - you probably won't like it.
I think (now) No. 2.
I know it is 'meant to be nice' - but the designer is working from the position of his/her own palate, right? And may well produce something which requires a specific palate or gustatory history to enjoy. So they might mean it but not produce it (for the general masses).
I'm not querying what is 'meant', I'm querying the situation today as is.
The more I think about it the more obvious Number 2 becomes.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
For me, wine was something that I grew into with age and as my palate became more mature.
When i was 18, never really touched it. A couple of years later I started trying reds. I never forget the day i became a lover of wine. Melbourne Tram Car restaurant. They were serving the 99 or 98 Tahbilk shiraz (mainly this was because it was 1999 or 2000) and after the first sip...my love affair began both with Tahbilk and with wine.
Initially i only liked reds (although I have NEVER liked merlot..thats another story), but now I couldnt think of anything better than a beautiful riesling or fruit driven chardonnay on a summers day!
When i was 18, never really touched it. A couple of years later I started trying reds. I never forget the day i became a lover of wine. Melbourne Tram Car restaurant. They were serving the 99 or 98 Tahbilk shiraz (mainly this was because it was 1999 or 2000) and after the first sip...my love affair began both with Tahbilk and with wine.
Initially i only liked reds (although I have NEVER liked merlot..thats another story), but now I couldnt think of anything better than a beautiful riesling or fruit driven chardonnay on a summers day!
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Myself, Ross, I went the other way around... in my 20's and thereabouts I loved wine indiscriminately. I must have been next door to a full-on alcoholic or something, my consumption when I look back was prodigious - definitely dangerous.
and I loved it all. It actually always tasted good. Whatever it was.
Then much later I got to where I couldn't find a drink of wine that I could enjoy. It all tasted either like vinegar or sickly, sugary syrup.
And now I begin to make my way into it again in a very sedate and desultory way... I'm into Shiraz at the moment....
and I loved it all. It actually always tasted good. Whatever it was.
Then much later I got to where I couldn't find a drink of wine that I could enjoy. It all tasted either like vinegar or sickly, sugary syrup.
And now I begin to make my way into it again in a very sedate and desultory way... I'm into Shiraz at the moment....
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
First thing, you're reading people's responses how you want to..but..let's take this a different way..
If you gave someone their first taste of wine and it was a dessert wine..would they like it? Probably...Most people are used to and generally like sweet things...
For other types of wine it's hard to say...I think one issue is most people's first try of wine is some total plonk...If you started off with something really great, would you think it was nasty? Hard to say..depends on what other foods you've been exposed to...flavors you've been exposed to. For myself, I started off as not a big wine fan because I didn't know what I was drinking and really had only been exposed to total crap. There was then this "Ah ha!" moment with my first try of something good...and yes, that was purely a nice experience for, at the time, a mainly non-wine drinker.. Did I get used to it? Hard to say but I doubt it..There is still a lot of bad wine out there and I'm not anymore used to drinking bad wine...in fact I have even less of a tolerance for it...
If you gave someone their first taste of wine and it was a dessert wine..would they like it? Probably...Most people are used to and generally like sweet things...
For other types of wine it's hard to say...I think one issue is most people's first try of wine is some total plonk...If you started off with something really great, would you think it was nasty? Hard to say..depends on what other foods you've been exposed to...flavors you've been exposed to. For myself, I started off as not a big wine fan because I didn't know what I was drinking and really had only been exposed to total crap. There was then this "Ah ha!" moment with my first try of something good...and yes, that was purely a nice experience for, at the time, a mainly non-wine drinker.. Did I get used to it? Hard to say but I doubt it..There is still a lot of bad wine out there and I'm not anymore used to drinking bad wine...in fact I have even less of a tolerance for it...
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Ha... it's getting harder and harder isn't it? And I admit it is all my fault. I just can't find the words to say it right, what I mean....
How about a sweet shop? You say 'most people like sweet things..' Yep. Okay. So how about we imagine people invited into sweet shops - anywhere in the world? Generally they'd find it a good experience, wouldn't they?
Now how about people invited into a wine shop, anywhere in the world? Generally they'd find it a bad experience, wouldn't they?
For many reasons. LIke, for instance, they can't see the wines the way you can see lollies, candies, sugars, icings.....
Like, for instance, they can't take little tastes here and there.... buy the tiniest bit of this or that...
Like, for instance, wine isn't sugar, isn't candy, and people don't have a familiarity to fall back on, to work from.
Now the 'wine shop' I'm talking about here is fictional, 'virtual' as we say in this cyber-age. People are surrounded by wine shops, mail order outlets, email, web-based outlets, drink waiters, lunch menus, well meaning friends, tv ads, magazine ads, etc.., etc...
That's the 'wine shop' they're in.
And they're without reliable direction. They're confused and lost. They finish up sampling at random. (and there's quite a cost attached to this 'sampling', economic, social, gustatory). And they experience what we've all experienced!
Which is heaps of bad wine!
Read the posts! Think of your own experience. We are all confessing to having had to drink a lot of stuff we'd rather not have drunk.
The fact is that until you find your way - your own way - blundering around in the 'wine shop' is not a real pleasant experience because more often than not one blunders into unpleasant things rather than pleasant.
On average. In the main. Predominantly. For the most part.
We've got more than one poster describing how their wine experience 'didn't begin' (though they were drinking wine from time to time) until they bumped into their own particular 'saving' wine. And it is easy enough to believe. And those describing the journey as being filled with bad wines. And those describing the present day where they have to struggle continually to find acceptable wines.
Hmmm. Pretty gross I'd say. You've got to want to be in it to put up with it. Perhaps the rewards from those 'good' wines, those 'excellent', those 'sublime' wines are worth all the travail. I don't know.
But I couldn't in good conscience urge anyone to 'jump into the wine thing - you'll love it!'
Which, I say again, is quite a surprising find to me. I really kinda naively felt the whole wine scene was predominantly 'nice'.
How about a sweet shop? You say 'most people like sweet things..' Yep. Okay. So how about we imagine people invited into sweet shops - anywhere in the world? Generally they'd find it a good experience, wouldn't they?
Now how about people invited into a wine shop, anywhere in the world? Generally they'd find it a bad experience, wouldn't they?
For many reasons. LIke, for instance, they can't see the wines the way you can see lollies, candies, sugars, icings.....
Like, for instance, they can't take little tastes here and there.... buy the tiniest bit of this or that...
Like, for instance, wine isn't sugar, isn't candy, and people don't have a familiarity to fall back on, to work from.
Now the 'wine shop' I'm talking about here is fictional, 'virtual' as we say in this cyber-age. People are surrounded by wine shops, mail order outlets, email, web-based outlets, drink waiters, lunch menus, well meaning friends, tv ads, magazine ads, etc.., etc...
That's the 'wine shop' they're in.
And they're without reliable direction. They're confused and lost. They finish up sampling at random. (and there's quite a cost attached to this 'sampling', economic, social, gustatory). And they experience what we've all experienced!
Which is heaps of bad wine!
Read the posts! Think of your own experience. We are all confessing to having had to drink a lot of stuff we'd rather not have drunk.
The fact is that until you find your way - your own way - blundering around in the 'wine shop' is not a real pleasant experience because more often than not one blunders into unpleasant things rather than pleasant.
On average. In the main. Predominantly. For the most part.
We've got more than one poster describing how their wine experience 'didn't begin' (though they were drinking wine from time to time) until they bumped into their own particular 'saving' wine. And it is easy enough to believe. And those describing the journey as being filled with bad wines. And those describing the present day where they have to struggle continually to find acceptable wines.
Hmmm. Pretty gross I'd say. You've got to want to be in it to put up with it. Perhaps the rewards from those 'good' wines, those 'excellent', those 'sublime' wines are worth all the travail. I don't know.
But I couldn't in good conscience urge anyone to 'jump into the wine thing - you'll love it!'
Which, I say again, is quite a surprising find to me. I really kinda naively felt the whole wine scene was predominantly 'nice'.
-
Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2960
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Of course wine is meant to taste nice.
This post started out as a quirky question and has now become a bit silly. All food and beverage is meant to taste nice. If a person doesn't like the item the "fault" lies with the person's subjectivity or taste, not the inanimate object. Some people don't like peas; that doesn't mean peas don't taste nice, just that the person doesn't like it.
There are extreme examples, like with cheese, where it ranges from mild cheddar to stilton. All are made in a style unique to itself to appeal to those who enjoy those flavours and textures. An individual may not like a particular kind of cheese but that doesn't mean that it wasn't made to taste nice. Stilton taste nice, especially with vintage port, though not everyone may like it. Again, the nice or nasty depends not on the cheese but the individual.
People all over the world drink wine and enjoy it. It is meant to be enjoyable for both its taste and effects. If a person finds win, in genera, to be "nasty" then the fault lies with them. (I think we can all agree that we are not talking about bad examples, like a poor wine or a badly made lasagna, or even a poor cup of coffee).
When people talk of their wine journey beginning they are usually referring to an experience that got them actively engaged in wine, buying, collecting, reading, posting endlessly on wine forums. The majority of people just continue to buy and drink wines without worry or wonder.
Hope I haven't offended anyone.
Cheers...................................Mahmoud.
This post started out as a quirky question and has now become a bit silly. All food and beverage is meant to taste nice. If a person doesn't like the item the "fault" lies with the person's subjectivity or taste, not the inanimate object. Some people don't like peas; that doesn't mean peas don't taste nice, just that the person doesn't like it.
There are extreme examples, like with cheese, where it ranges from mild cheddar to stilton. All are made in a style unique to itself to appeal to those who enjoy those flavours and textures. An individual may not like a particular kind of cheese but that doesn't mean that it wasn't made to taste nice. Stilton taste nice, especially with vintage port, though not everyone may like it. Again, the nice or nasty depends not on the cheese but the individual.
People all over the world drink wine and enjoy it. It is meant to be enjoyable for both its taste and effects. If a person finds win, in genera, to be "nasty" then the fault lies with them. (I think we can all agree that we are not talking about bad examples, like a poor wine or a badly made lasagna, or even a poor cup of coffee).
When people talk of their wine journey beginning they are usually referring to an experience that got them actively engaged in wine, buying, collecting, reading, posting endlessly on wine forums. The majority of people just continue to buy and drink wines without worry or wonder.
Hope I haven't offended anyone.
Cheers...................................Mahmoud.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
No it's not getting harder, you're just labouring your point! We're not saying we've had to drink a lot of stuff we'd rather not have drunk at all, that's wrong, we're saying that our tastes start off with certain styles, and then evolve from there. Of course there will be some wines we don't like along the way, nothing surprising there, but most wines are enjoyable, of course we wouldn't be here otherwise!!
So most wine is acceptable, some isn't, some is amazing. Same as food and music and art. You make it sound like we've all hated wine, and slowly gotten to like it, not at all. I've yet to see a sweet shop that lets me taste all the sweets in advance to see if I like them, and so seeing the bottles is an equivalent of seeing the bags of lollies. I'd say blundering around a wine shop is like blundering around a sweet shop, most likely you'll find something acceptable, but you may find something you don't like or something you love. We all start out in sweet shops not knowing what we like, and discovering through trial and error what we do and don't. Same goes for wine.
I'd certainly say 'jump into the wine thing, you'll love it' to anyone. I know most will, but not everyone will end up enjoying wine, just as not everyone ends up enjoying olives or anchovies or chocolate cake!
Cheers
Tim
So most wine is acceptable, some isn't, some is amazing. Same as food and music and art. You make it sound like we've all hated wine, and slowly gotten to like it, not at all. I've yet to see a sweet shop that lets me taste all the sweets in advance to see if I like them, and so seeing the bottles is an equivalent of seeing the bags of lollies. I'd say blundering around a wine shop is like blundering around a sweet shop, most likely you'll find something acceptable, but you may find something you don't like or something you love. We all start out in sweet shops not knowing what we like, and discovering through trial and error what we do and don't. Same goes for wine.
I'd certainly say 'jump into the wine thing, you'll love it' to anyone. I know most will, but not everyone will end up enjoying wine, just as not everyone ends up enjoying olives or anchovies or chocolate cake!
Cheers
Tim
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
You're right. I'm labouring my point. And I shouldn't even have a point - I started with a question.
So best I shut up. It might be very bad form to continue.
I'll go have a nightcap.
Love your avatar, Tigger, very tasteful.
So best I shut up. It might be very bad form to continue.
I'll go have a nightcap.
Love your avatar, Tigger, very tasteful.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
abrogard wrote:
We've got more than one poster describing how their wine experience 'didn't begin' (though they were drinking wine from time to time) until they bumped into their own particular 'saving' wine. And it is easy enough to believe. And those describing the journey as being filled with bad wines. And those describing the present day where they have to struggle continually to find acceptable wines.
Hmmm. Pretty gross I'd say. You've got to want to be in it to put up with it. Perhaps the rewards from those 'good' wines, those 'excellent', those 'sublime' wines are worth all the travail. I don't know.
But I couldn't in good conscience urge anyone to 'jump into the wine thing - you'll love it!'
Which, I say again, is quite a surprising find to me. I really kinda naively felt the whole wine scene was predominantly 'nice'.
You gotta be a troll..I find it hard to believe anyone would read people's posts and then interpret them so poorly...and then semi-quote them as if to back up their statements..wow....I don't know anyone that struggles continually to find acceptable wines unless all they're buying is box wine but somehow, you incorrectly came to that conclusion...
Your question, has been answered... Wine might be an acquired taste, it might not. You MIGHT try wines when you first start off that you feel are terrible. You MIGHT grow to like them or you MIGHT never like those because they were bad. You MIGHT love the ones you had from the start. Does that tell you anything except it depends on the person, the wine and maybe where they are in life, what they've tried, what they like so far..
Coffee, Tea, Curry, vegetables, etc any different? no...Are Eggs meant to be nice or are they an acquired taste? My poll of 50 four year olds suggests they're nasty...While their parents say you'll eventually get used to them...
But back to your question..Price isn't always a factor but I'd probably say, if you're buying 5 dollar bottles of wine, you might find it hard to find real quality. You might think all wine tastes pretty bad and you're just drinking it to get pissed...You might struggle to find acceptable wine. If you're buying 50+ dollar bottles of wine, it'll be very easy to find real quality and you might think all wine tastes good. You might struggle to drink plonk because it's nasty...
Last edited by Polymer on Fri May 13, 2011 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Clearly the answer for you is nasty.
I accept that wine will not taste nice for you (nor perhaps your wife) and you should stick to drinking things you like.
If you are going to buy a bottle of wine to dislike you should search out the smaller wineries in the country and buy their wines.
You should at all costs avoid the large corporations and the products they pump out.
It won't make any difference to your drinking enjoyment, (it would appear), but at least you are supporting small business and it's strive to survive.
Small business needs people to buy their wine and if you are going to dislike everything you drink at least support small business.
Don't buy cleanskins, they are the waste of the masses and you are supporting nothing but the profits of the peddlers who are out to gain from the suffering of the weak and ill-informed.
I started out liking rough reds. Now i like finesse in my wines.
Put your best shit wine in front of me and i will smile and taste it.
It may have cherries and steel as a taste, but i will smile and tell you only of the cherries.
I will ask you then if you have any beer.
Welcome to the forum.
I hope you find what you seek.
I accept that wine will not taste nice for you (nor perhaps your wife) and you should stick to drinking things you like.
If you are going to buy a bottle of wine to dislike you should search out the smaller wineries in the country and buy their wines.
You should at all costs avoid the large corporations and the products they pump out.
It won't make any difference to your drinking enjoyment, (it would appear), but at least you are supporting small business and it's strive to survive.
Small business needs people to buy their wine and if you are going to dislike everything you drink at least support small business.
Don't buy cleanskins, they are the waste of the masses and you are supporting nothing but the profits of the peddlers who are out to gain from the suffering of the weak and ill-informed.
I started out liking rough reds. Now i like finesse in my wines.
Put your best shit wine in front of me and i will smile and taste it.
It may have cherries and steel as a taste, but i will smile and tell you only of the cherries.
I will ask you then if you have any beer.
Welcome to the forum.
I hope you find what you seek.
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
People
I think this thread is just a case of too much thinking and not enough drinking!
I think this thread is just a case of too much thinking and not enough drinking!
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
abrogard wrote:You're right. I'm labouring my point. And I shouldn't even have a point - I started with a question.
So best I shut up. It might be very bad form to continue.
I'll go have a nightcap.
Love your avatar, Tigger, very tasteful.
It's just about sweetness, that's all. If your 'convertee' has hitherto only drunk orange juice, lemon squash, bundy & coke, southern comfort & lemonade, or tea & coffee with two sugars, then wine will taste bitter. Doesn't matter how good the wine.
Start them with Moscato d'Asti, Griffith sweeties & Rutherglen fortifieds.
Weaning off sweet drinks is a separate issue to the quality of the (red) wine you might drink.
GG
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Craig(NZ) wrote:People
I think this thread is just a case of too much thinking and not enough drinking!
I'm with you..
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
abrogard wrote:But if I say to someone, as I did to my wife, "Try Wine", it is almost inevitable that she'll dislike what she tries. Which she did.
You need to get to know your wife and her tastes more...
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Red Bigot wrote:
You need to get to know your wife and her tastes more...
But just when you get to know them, they change.
It's a womans prerogative or something....
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via collins
- Posts: 727
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:16 pm
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
This thread is starting to read like a piece of performance art.
Freaky!
Freaky!
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Well, FFS just buy her a bottle of Martini&Rossi Asti Spumante, ask her if it tastes like sweet white grapes with bubbles! Then there's Brown Brothers Crouchen Riesling and Sparkling Moscato.
You quoted me out of context DH!
WINE IS MEANT TO BE NICE!!!! So if you are serious about finding wine you two dilettantes like, buy some, try it, FKs, you've sucked enough suggestions out of the members of this forum. And your bumbling pseudo-intellectual approach is tiresome in the extreme.
Try some wines and tell us what you like/dislike about them or just get on your bike and go back to Brandy Alexanders, Blue Lagoons and Fluffy Ducks!
You quoted me out of context DH!
WINE IS MEANT TO BE NICE!!!! So if you are serious about finding wine you two dilettantes like, buy some, try it, FKs, you've sucked enough suggestions out of the members of this forum. And your bumbling pseudo-intellectual approach is tiresome in the extreme.
Try some wines and tell us what you like/dislike about them or just get on your bike and go back to Brandy Alexanders, Blue Lagoons and Fluffy Ducks!
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Abrogard: are you really David Thorne in disguise - http://www.27bslash6.com/ , your current book is "The Internet is a Playground' and you are collecting data for the next one??
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
So.
Did you find anything you and your missus liked?
Did you find anything you and your missus liked?
Re: Is Wine Meant To Be Nice or Nasty?
Oh, hi guys. Sorry to go wandering off but I was a bit put off by the sorta personal animosity tone of a posting or two and thought best to leave well alone: 'Least said, soonest mended'
But I am grateful for the interest shown by by all those good people who didn't feel any need to act in that way, and for all their posts.
In the beginning I think I made a major mistake in not carefully thinking out the phrasing of my question.
But no, I'm not David Thorne and I don't make a habit of disturbing forum citizens. Which isn't to say I haven't done so a time or two, but some forums.... you can't help it...
And my ambiguous or uncertain phrasing was an accident, merely.
No, my wife hasn't found a wine to her taste.
And I - as I think I said - am currently enjoying a Shiraz and I can at any time enjoy various other wines. Never been a problem for me, as I think I said. But, true, I have 'enjoyed' in the past with all the discrimination of a pig, being intrinsically a 'drinker'. Determined to drink no matter what. And therefore swift to find some way to make anything palatable. The last vinegar-rough red I had was consumed entirely via cups of coffee, for instance.
My wife's 'problem' is not a problem at all. She feels no urge to find a wine to her taste and I feel no compulsion to find one for her.
If I can recall my original question:
It mentions nothing about my wife or myself. It is very general. And it makes no attacks, casts no aspersions, makes no derogatory references, imputes no motives or actions, to anyone.
It does take the trouble to rectify the original poorly phrased question by explaining, attempting to explain, what was meant.
Come up with two versions of 'what was meant'.
1. 'Should the newcomer expect..."
2. ".... is wine drinking... "
and the answers are clearly
1. "Yes, expect to have trouble.."
and
2. "Yes, it is.."
Which anyone at all would have known to be the answers instinctively upon seeing the questions and I feel stupid for even asking it.
Experience teaches these are the answers.
Logic dictates that food tastes when indulged frequently call for more and more of what is desired until the norm for the usual consumer far exceeds the comfortable for the noviciate. Take chili dishes, take curries, take Turkish sweets, etc...
The same mechanism operates within the wine drinking field, of course. Hence Logic dictates these answers, too.
This thread teaches these are the answers - the posters polite and impolite, having indicated numerous wines as being the way in or the wine to drink for an introduction to the wine scene, and have pointed out that people's tastes vary enormously and people's tastes vary over the course of their lives and thats taste varies according to exposure, or 'matures', or 'develo0ps' - hence a wine shop will be stocked with a variety of wines covering - attempting to cover - this wide variety of tastes - hence, ipso facto, a very large percentage of the wine will not be to the taste of a particular individual - witnessed again by the posters to the this thread who've variously heaped scorn on various (quite popular) wines - intimating, of course, that they're definitely not to their taste!
So there's three ways of arriving at the same conclusion. And it should never have been any surprise.
Now there's one caveat here that I can see. Vin Ordinaire. Your stock standard 'table wine'. In a wine growing area natural commercial, cultural, gustatory forces should lead to the inevitable production of a 'standard' wine largely consumed in the home and the cafe - cheap but 'good'. 'Good' in quotes because it refers, of course, not to a universal 'good' but to 'good' as seen by the locals, many of whom actually help in the production of this wine.
For such people in such an area in such a society the 'wine scene' queried in my messed up question would in fact hold no terrors at all. Because they would be schooled from birth. Because they would be forewarned with knowledge of their own taste. Because the stock in the shop would heavily reflect the prevailing wine culture.
This is case in many places in the world.
However it is not the case in Australia. Not even in the wine growing areas. Cafes do not commonly sell wine with meals in Australia. I'm not a trendy myself, more an old curmudgeon, but I'm aware of the 'trendy' scene and have had to live within and around it for my sins when working in Canberra. In such self-consciously internationally savvy and sophisticated scenes there doubtless are numerous pavement cafes where one might be seen sipping a fine Hock with a croissant and the Economist close to hand on any sunny afternoon.
But in the Central Cafe in Woop-Woop where you might find some dinkum folks, I doubt you'd find such.
So hereabouts in Australia I'd say to the noviciate:
"You'll have to hunt around a bit to find something you like." "Then you'll have to hunt around a bit more to find it at a reasonable price, probably, there's much ripoff in the business." "Then you'll probably find your taste has 'matured' and you'll be looking for something else... and you'll have to quaff a fair measure of the distasteful before you get there.."
Because it's like life, I guess: not meant to be easy.... get out of it what you put in...
Unless you're nothing more than a cheerful old alky, of course...
But I am grateful for the interest shown by by all those good people who didn't feel any need to act in that way, and for all their posts.
In the beginning I think I made a major mistake in not carefully thinking out the phrasing of my question.
But no, I'm not David Thorne and I don't make a habit of disturbing forum citizens. Which isn't to say I haven't done so a time or two, but some forums.... you can't help it...
And my ambiguous or uncertain phrasing was an accident, merely.
No, my wife hasn't found a wine to her taste.
And I - as I think I said - am currently enjoying a Shiraz and I can at any time enjoy various other wines. Never been a problem for me, as I think I said. But, true, I have 'enjoyed' in the past with all the discrimination of a pig, being intrinsically a 'drinker'. Determined to drink no matter what. And therefore swift to find some way to make anything palatable. The last vinegar-rough red I had was consumed entirely via cups of coffee, for instance.
My wife's 'problem' is not a problem at all. She feels no urge to find a wine to her taste and I feel no compulsion to find one for her.
If I can recall my original question:
What I mean is should the newcomer expect to have trouble finding a palatable wine or expect to find many, almost immediately?
To put it another way: is wine drinking a sort of 'acquired taste' ?
It mentions nothing about my wife or myself. It is very general. And it makes no attacks, casts no aspersions, makes no derogatory references, imputes no motives or actions, to anyone.
It does take the trouble to rectify the original poorly phrased question by explaining, attempting to explain, what was meant.
Come up with two versions of 'what was meant'.
1. 'Should the newcomer expect..."
2. ".... is wine drinking... "
and the answers are clearly
1. "Yes, expect to have trouble.."
and
2. "Yes, it is.."
Which anyone at all would have known to be the answers instinctively upon seeing the questions and I feel stupid for even asking it.
Experience teaches these are the answers.
Logic dictates that food tastes when indulged frequently call for more and more of what is desired until the norm for the usual consumer far exceeds the comfortable for the noviciate. Take chili dishes, take curries, take Turkish sweets, etc...
The same mechanism operates within the wine drinking field, of course. Hence Logic dictates these answers, too.
This thread teaches these are the answers - the posters polite and impolite, having indicated numerous wines as being the way in or the wine to drink for an introduction to the wine scene, and have pointed out that people's tastes vary enormously and people's tastes vary over the course of their lives and thats taste varies according to exposure, or 'matures', or 'develo0ps' - hence a wine shop will be stocked with a variety of wines covering - attempting to cover - this wide variety of tastes - hence, ipso facto, a very large percentage of the wine will not be to the taste of a particular individual - witnessed again by the posters to the this thread who've variously heaped scorn on various (quite popular) wines - intimating, of course, that they're definitely not to their taste!
So there's three ways of arriving at the same conclusion. And it should never have been any surprise.
Now there's one caveat here that I can see. Vin Ordinaire. Your stock standard 'table wine'. In a wine growing area natural commercial, cultural, gustatory forces should lead to the inevitable production of a 'standard' wine largely consumed in the home and the cafe - cheap but 'good'. 'Good' in quotes because it refers, of course, not to a universal 'good' but to 'good' as seen by the locals, many of whom actually help in the production of this wine.
For such people in such an area in such a society the 'wine scene' queried in my messed up question would in fact hold no terrors at all. Because they would be schooled from birth. Because they would be forewarned with knowledge of their own taste. Because the stock in the shop would heavily reflect the prevailing wine culture.
This is case in many places in the world.
However it is not the case in Australia. Not even in the wine growing areas. Cafes do not commonly sell wine with meals in Australia. I'm not a trendy myself, more an old curmudgeon, but I'm aware of the 'trendy' scene and have had to live within and around it for my sins when working in Canberra. In such self-consciously internationally savvy and sophisticated scenes there doubtless are numerous pavement cafes where one might be seen sipping a fine Hock with a croissant and the Economist close to hand on any sunny afternoon.
But in the Central Cafe in Woop-Woop where you might find some dinkum folks, I doubt you'd find such.
So hereabouts in Australia I'd say to the noviciate:
"You'll have to hunt around a bit to find something you like." "Then you'll have to hunt around a bit more to find it at a reasonable price, probably, there's much ripoff in the business." "Then you'll probably find your taste has 'matured' and you'll be looking for something else... and you'll have to quaff a fair measure of the distasteful before you get there.."
Because it's like life, I guess: not meant to be easy.... get out of it what you put in...
Unless you're nothing more than a cheerful old alky, of course...