The Auswine Forum

Chuck wrote:Big but not super big SA shiraz are enjoyable with the right food - hearty (steak, roasts etc) and definitely in the cooler months. Can't beat it. Big shiraz in summer is not much fun although turning the ac down to below 21C, dressing to suit and pretending it's winter can be fun. The wine needs to be chilled down to say 14C as well.

I know what you mean. Living in a sub-tropical climate I've become very good at presenting wines to show their best. Temperature is obviously critical. 14C is too cold Chuck? My wine fridges are set at 14C and it doesn't work for any red. It's great for juggling a bottle at AC room temp in summer; keeping wine at the best serving temp.

The concept of food and wine is fascinating and the industry's obsession with it. How long does it take to eat a steak? Maybe you'll get through half a glass? Then what? My point being wine pairings matter for about a fraction of the bottle- most people continue to drink the wine without food.

Polymer wrote:Getting them from the Domaine is super cheap if you can manage to get an allocation.

I didn't think any Domaine would entertain the idea of shipping a small individual allocation overseas to Australia?

JamieBahrain wrote:

Chuck wrote:Big but not super big SA shiraz are enjoyable with the right food - hearty (steak, roasts etc) and definitely in the cooler months. Can't beat it. Big shiraz in summer is not much fun although turning the ac down to below 21C, dressing to suit and pretending it's winter can be fun. The wine needs to be chilled down to say 14C as well.

I know what you mean. Living in a sub-tropical climate I've become very good at presenting wines to show their best. Temperature is obviously critical. 14C is too cold Chuck? My wine fridges are set at 14C and it doesn't work for any red. It's great for juggling a bottle at AC room temp in summer; keeping wine at the best serving temp.

The concept of food and wine is fascinating and the industry's obsession with it. How long does it take to eat a steak? Maybe you'll get through half a glass? Then what? My point being wine pairings matter for about a fraction of the bottle- most people continue to drink the wine without food.

.

I can get through a couple of standard glasses of wine eating a steak and I'm not a slow eater. Then leaning back and savouring the rest on a full stomach is not hard to do. Also I do like to see a wine warm up so it can be a caught just at the right moment.

My view on the statement that all roads lead to Burgundy. It does not mean ignore any wine that is not from Burgundy because everything else is substandard or whatnot. It just means that on a worldwide wine journey, you will inevitably visit Burgundy. How frequently you visit is up to the individual.

Chuck wrote:I can get through a couple of standard glasses of wine eating a steak and I'm not a slow eater. Then leaning back and savouring the rest on a full stomach is not hard to do.

Fair enough- great aperitif/ digestif .

I'm guessing this is what most wine drinkers have to do. I just think many in the industry overstate wine pairing importance. I hear it all the time in ITA- wine is for food which is all good and well but now I'm sated and I have 500ml of Barolo left.

As the user name suggests I love shiraz, but my horizons have expanded to now drinking and buying as much pinot noir as shiraz.

I started my wine journey drinking a lot of full-bodied South Australian shiraz, but find these wines far less appealing as many of them can overpower food. I still drink shiraz, but prefer those from cooler-climates (Grampians, Yarra Valley, Adelaide Hills, and Great Southern).

My wine collection has gone from 90% shiraz to 33.00% shiraz. 30.43% of my collection is pinot noir.

Chuck wrote:Big but not super big SA shiraz are enjoyable with the right food - hearty (steak, roasts etc) and definitely in the cooler months. Can't beat it. Big shiraz in summer is not much fun although turning the ac down to below 21C, dressing to suit and pretending it's winter can be fun. The wine needs to be chilled down to say 14C as well.

My wine fridge is set at 13 degrees and i find the fuller bodied reds far too cold straight out of there.
I think 16-18 degrees, particularly for straight shiraz and cab is the sweet spot. depending on the weather it can take 20-30 mins for them to warm up.
I don't mind whites straight out of the wine fridge particularly chardonnay but i usually put the bottle straight in the standard fridge for a few minutes after opening too keep it around the 11-12 mark if possible.

It's an issue for a lot of restaurants these days. Whites coming out far too cold and reds served far too warm.
The boss and i often sit there clutching our riesling glasses like we're holding on a cup of tea at everest base camp when the bottle comes out covered in condensation. As for reds? Well where do you draw the line on sending a single glass of red back when it comes out too warm?
Then there's the first world issue of transporting BYO in the heat. What to do, what to do?

Scotty vino wrote:Then there's the first world issue of transporting BYO in the heat.

I purchased this recently for transporting bottles to offlines. Used it first on a 44 degree day. Put in an ice brick and it worked a treat. Transports up to 9 bottles depending on bottle shape.

[url]https://www.coleman.com/42-can-wheeled-coole ... 01308.html[/url]

Well I will weigh into this one
I have a smattering of Hunter, a lot of Victorian and a fair bit of SA.
They are all very different and diverse and I like them all, I must have a palate attuned to what those refer to as the big bruisers and all the delicate cooler types appeal as well.
Equally, I am not fussed, a good Shiraz or good Cabernet...easily pleased.

Cheers
Craig

Ozzie W wrote:

Scotty vino wrote:Then there's the first world issue of transporting BYO in the heat.

I purchased this recently for transporting bottles to offlines. Used it first on a 44 degree day. Put in an ice brick and it worked a treat. Transports up to 9 bottles depending on bottle shape.

[url]https://www.coleman.com/42-can-wheeled-coole ... 01308.html[/url]

i use a similar method for bringing wines back from CD's around SA in summer.
I've got a coleman on wheels but not the deluxe model you have . A few ice bricks as you say underneath and few layers of tea towels.
Works a treat even in the car. might have to upgrade looking at this one you have ozz.
....excuse thread drift.

JamieBahrain wrote:

Polymer wrote: Its only rubbish to people whose journey hasn't taken them there...and there's nothing wrong with that..

I think you're way out of context in your response here. I'm not interested in a long and continual debate, in an off the cuff post supporting Michael's contempt for wine snobbery and a dismissal of SA shiraz. Perhaps re-read the context?

Jamie,

I have said, its only rubbish for people whose journey hasn't taken them there. And that those people's (the people whose journey has taken them somewhere else or to the same place they were originally) journey is perfectly fine.

The comment of all roads lead to burgundy...is true for some..and rubbish for others....Maybe I should've said that instead.

Personally, I think Burgundy is just a direction on your way to other wines...but it is a lovely place to go back to on a regular basis if you can afford to...

JamieBahrain wrote: I'm not sure of your level of exposure to Burgundy. I consider mine broad, seeing many dozens of wines each month. My access to Burgundy wines could easily be unfettered if I was so interested.

As is my access to Burgundy...Not sure what the relevance is here. I'm sure you're not suggesting you have more of a right to judge whether Burgundy is a true end journey for other people (for yourself you do obviously).

JamieBahrain wrote: Yes, premox is an issue and response has been slow. Ever taken a Montrachet back for refund over premox? You won't get one in many cases. You wouldn't get away with this in Australia, with Aussie wines- in Burgundy it is facilitated by consumer snobbery. We don't know if premox has been addressed yet and I find your faith in long corks and diam premature.

I didn't disagree with you that it is a problem..I hate the fact that White Burg is a bit of a no no for cellaring..absolutely hate it. I'm not seeing them do NOTHING about it though...Have they solved it? I don't know if they have or not..but so far results have been somewhat positive. Fevre, for example, has been a good example of success with DIAM. You can get a refund on your burg in Australia...but you've paid Aussie prices as well..
Yes, it has taken a long time...and part of that is because I doubt their importers have held them accountable for fear of losing their allocation. When they're making several hundred percent markup, they're not interested in rocking the boat. And frankly, the number of Europeans that think Premoxed White Burgundy just needs a decant, is many...and this is among very experienced drinkers...Maybe by some people's definition it isn't premoxed because it isn't fully sherried...but it is most definitely far advanced in an improper aging curve and it tastes terrible...

JamieBahrain wrote: Oak usage. Yep.. there's plenty of big SA bruisers who misuse oak but guess what? I see obtrusive oak in young, adolescent and mature Burgundy all the time. My reference to snobbery here is that both SA shiraz producers and Burgundy produce wines with clumsy oak usage- Burgundy gets away with it. And the oak is usage is as dreary as a bad SA shiraz from the many average Burgundy producers in my experience.

I don't see how you feel Burgundy gets away with it...Heavily oaked producers, I hate those too. Some people like those producers just as some people like heavily oaked SA Shiraz.

The reason SA Shiraz has more of a reputation is because a vast majority of producers use way too much oak whereas I can find many Burgundy producers where the oak is not nearly as intrusive to the wine or I know, based on experience, that it balances out within a few years. You might not feel that most SA Shiraz is oaky, but a lot of people do...I know a lot of people think it is snobbery but I'm talking about experiences when the wines are served blind..Everyone is going to have their own opinions about what is oaky and what is not...and I think you can take a look at what those people buy (Producers and regions) and you can have a fairly good idea of what they think of oak...

I know a lot of Burgundy producers, on paper, look like they use a lot of new oak..but a lot of them don't end up showing it as much..probably because they aren't as clumsy with their usage of oak. I personally don't care how much oak a producer has used..I care about how much has shown up in the wine. I think I'm actually fairly forgiving when it comes to oak but I guess it depends on what part of the oak is coming out. I can probably handle wood and spice a bit more than say, vanilla...

JamieBahrain wrote: Burgundy is the most arrogant wine region in the world. Pricing is unaccountable because you can have a premoxed $1000 USD wine and its typical for the wine not to be refunded. You can have a corked $1000 USD wine and try getting a refund from Rousseau and others. I see this consumer snobbery every week! Old World drinkers accept taint and premox in Burgundy as a matter of course. Producers have been slow to address faults within their region in no small part due many Burgundy drinkers being snobs.

This isn't exclusive to Burgundy...If you spent 1k on a Burg, you bought from a reseller who probably bought from a wholesaler..that's where you get your money back...from where you purchased it...
Australia is probably THE BEST at getting you a replacement wine...in the world. The rest of the world lags behind and this is not exclusive to Burgundy. The fact that you paid 1k for a wine they sold to someone for 50 EUR doesn't mean much to the producer that sold it for 50 EUR. I'd have a much bigger issue if in fact they were selling the wine for 1k and refusing to do anything about it.

Ozzie W wrote:

Polymer wrote:Getting them from the Domaine is super cheap if you can manage to get an allocation.

I didn't think any Domaine would entertain the idea of shipping a small individual allocation overseas to Australia?

If you're getting an allocation you are responsible to get it shipped to Australia (or wherever).

There are other situations where some will tack it onto their importer in your country and you can get it from them although this can make things a bit funny and I think this is pretty rare.

Some Europeans will visit many many times and beg for an allocation...and if they're very very very lucky they may eventually get something although this is nearly impossible. You do hear stories about this in Europe though...Either way, you're still responsible to get your own allocation and get it shipped (or transport it yourself).

I think the point is though, that most of the money that gets spent on Burgundy is not going to the producer so when people get mad at Burgundy producers for the high prices they really shouldn't be. I suppose they could spend a lot of effort trying to make sure the wines get to the people that truly love them..but that will just never happen...and I don't think there is a model where that works out very well...even a direct model just turns a lot of those people into resellers...and if you end up raising your prices to cut that out, you end up cutting out the people who love the wine. If you end up preventing any resale (track by serial number or blockchain and then ban those people if they're caught) then only a small handful of people can even access the wine..at any price.

Premox criticisms entirely valid IMO. The problem was known in the 1990s, but it took many years for the white burgundy producers to acknowledge it, and much longer for them to take action. This appalling situation was not helped by prices going *up* as buyers bought the wines ever more enthusiastically. I think there is merit in Polymer's reasoning as to why the message struggled to get back to them and it's more helpful to dwell on that, than simply calling them arrogant.

General price escalation - harder to criticise here. Many stories of producers wanting to keep prices low, then being horrified at scalpers taking their wines into 'investment grade'. They appear to dislike the commercialism of Bordeaux and the en-primeur bandwagon, yet find the prices to end customers going through the roof. What can they do? Keep prices low and the scalpers will make hay; Increase prices and they themselves are seen as greedy.

FWIW I'm not a big buyer of Burgundy. Whites interest me, but premox killed that interest just as I was getting a taste for it. So now it's the very occasional bottle of Chablis, but mostly Macon and nothing inbetween. Reds have never really captivated me, excepting a couple of old bottles I picked up at auction (1969 Domaine Jaboulet-Vercherre Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Charmes), which was all I could wish of an older wine and had a Burgundy-loving friend questioning whether he'd drunk all of his wines too young! On the whole they are useful food matches, but barring those two bottles, haven't excited me in the way that even modest langhe nebbiolos have done.

Polymer wrote:
The comment of all roads lead to burgundy...is true for some..and rubbish for others....Maybe I should've said that instead.

Um, quoi?

If it is true for some and not for others, then it can't be "all" roads can it?

sjw_11 wrote:

Polymer wrote:
The comment of all roads lead to burgundy...is true for some..and rubbish for others....Maybe I should've said that instead.

Um, quoi?

If it is true for some and not for others, then it can't be "all" roads can it?

To me it is no matter where you start, you end up in Burgundy....Which is true for some..and not for others.

I'm sure you can read it another way..you can also interpret true as if it isn't 100%, it isn't true..but I'm sure we aren't getting to the point of being that nitpicky...

Polymer

You've turned an off the cuff, back up remark, to the BS of wine snobbery, into a long winded suck eggs responses.

I don't know if you actually drink much Burgundy as the basis of your opinions or you are just an internet commentator. I'm not invalidating your views; they don't reflect my experiences.

I posted an interesting article on premox last month because I wasn't sure the complexity of the issue understood here. It mentioned decanting which I've seen attempted in desperation many times. Some commentators within my group who are pretty close to the pulse are convinced premox isn't isolated to white Burgundy ! But anyways, my few lines of snobbery protest, were about the fact that you are in no way guaranteed replacement of flawed wine in Burgundy. It's arrogant- one famous Domaine who may happily sell you a $1000 dollar bottle in the morning, if you try and return it in the afternoon if flawed, will just say this is the price of perfection and no refunds. Never experienced this in any other wine region- its arrogant! I take back corked wines to Piedmont producers a couple of times a year and am always refunded! I'd expect the same in the Rhone- not sure of BDX.

In monthly verticals or horizontals of aged Burgundy oak does often poke out. I'm happy to make amusing mention of this with my Burg obsessed friends. Sometimes its boringly consistent amongst the sometimes frailty of the grape- so yep, in my experience you can make a mockery of wood and Burgundy in the context the comments were delivered.

I'm not really interested arguing arbitrary examples of pricing. Burgundy is expensive full stop. You can waffle on all you like but it is a region in my experience that arrogantly gets away with flaws that other regions would not.

And back to the context of the comment, it peeves me off too when somebody condescendingly suggests, when you've matured as a wine drinker you'll be drinking Burgundy. Especially considering the aurora of fraud and imposture the internet can offer.

[quote="
It's an issue for a lot of restaurants these days. Whites coming out far too cold and reds served far too warm.
[/quote]

Plus 1.

Often when arriving at a restaurant I'll ask the waiter to put the chosen red wine in the fridge or if it's quick service in the freezer. There are often odd looks but I'm a pragmatic guy. Also ask for the top to be removed to aid breathing.

Carl

Ian S wrote: I think there is merit in Polymer's reasoning as to why the message struggled to get back to them and it's more helpful to dwell on that, than simply calling them arrogant.

Yeah...nah.

I'd be betting they knew full well of the issue before consumers and before those with agency rights abroad. At Beaucastel recently, they told me to contact them for a window update on any of my wines 20 years old or less, as they do monthly tastings. Premox offenders such as Leflaive would be the same.

I'm happy to lambaste Old World drinkers every time they have a flawed wine and do nothing. It's largely their fault that the problem with cork taint and premox has been so slowly addressed. In my area of interest, Piedmont, I'm constantly reminding folks of their failings as consumers to accept flawed wine. General cork flaws aren't far off 10% according to Galloni.

Now, if everyone contacted a winery or did their best to ensure a replacement or refund of sorts, I bet Roberto Conterno wouldn't be Robinson Crusoe with his cork quality.

Yet, European and UK consumers, tend to just shrug their shoulders at wine flaws.

JamieBahrain wrote: I don't know if you actually drink much Burgundy as the basis of your opinions or you are just an internet commentator. I'm not invalidating your views; they don't reflect my experiences.

I'm very satisfied with my level of Burgundy exposure...

I don't think we're disagreeing on a lot....Premox is a difficult one to pin down as it doesn't happen right away. A lot of places won't understand or care that the wine is premoxed...and in fact, convincing the French that the wine is premoxed (which for me includes very advanced) is a bit of a challenge. Other regions have premox issues but it doesn't seem to be as pervasive as Burgundy...and we know some producers have a much higher rate so it is likely there is something in the winemaking/air/yeast/bacteria that is causing this. We also know screwcapped whites don't have this problem. I'm incredibly frustrated by this, as is everyone although I do wonder, if premox gets solved, will that just drive White Burg prices higher? I don't know which is worse...Either way, lots of buyers all over don't like returning wine...I've even been told by an American they think it is IMMORAL to return a corked wine (Not that I agree at any level). And it comes back to, they don't know what is really causing it...and while I wish they tried to address things earlier. I don't know that they haven't looked into it earlier, I just think they weren't sure what was causing it. All I can say is there are some really bad offenders (Fevre, Lafon, Leflaive) that have all made changes...and so far in Fevre its very positive..and from what I've seen from Lafon and Leflaive it is positive so far...in a few years we will have a much better idea. And while they might've been aware of the issue to an extent, they weren't getting pressure from their distribution channels (Importers and end users) because people didn't want to piss them off...

The oak thing. There are some heavy handed producers in Burgundy...but I think saying Burgundy is general is heavy handed, I don't think most people agree with you. You seem to chalk this up to snobbery. I don't. I genuinely don't find Burgundy, in general, to be heavy handed. Some producers yes...sometimes right at release will show more than I'd like...but after awhile no... And if a producers wine starts going super oaky...I just avoid them...great thing is there are other producers to buy from (I only wish quantity was less of an issue). And don't take this the wrong way, but I don't see how you can call Burgundy producers heavy handed when you still buy a lot of SA Shiraz...which in comparison IS heavy handed. Are you saying for those producers its ok but for Burgundy it is not? Or that it goes better with the wine? Or just the style you're expecting?

The one thing I really disagree with you on is the pricing...You are an experienced drinker..you know where the high prices come from. I have no idea why you're blaming the producer. You buy Rockford and Wendouree, both of which will have wines that are higher on the secondary market and yet you're not blaming them... You're in fact, the only person that I know that has taken this view on Burgundy. Yes, we're all frustrated with the ridiculous pricing but blame the people making the real money from these bottles...

JamieBahrain wrote: And back to the context of the comment, it peeves me off too when somebody condescendingly suggests, when you've matured as a wine drinker you'll be drinking Burgundy. Especially considering the aurora of fraud and imposture the internet can offer.

Sure...and I can see why this might annoy someone....but I think the general idea is many people's palates will change into something with a bit more elegance and acidity....and we see that happen a lot.

That doesn't mean the statement itself isn't true for a lot of drinkers..it just happens to be false for a lot as well....But lets look at the reverse. Do you see people going from say, Burgundy to big heavy reds as their wine journey? I'm sure it has happened but it would be rare. I know this isn't a good way to debate but it just illustrates an example...You wouldn't say all roads lead to Barossa because that isn't a common wine journey..

You seem to have some anger and annoyance at the whole Burgundy thing...you probably deal with a lot more annoying snobs that like a wine for the label more than anything else - Thankfully I don't.

I was going to chime in earlier today, but things have obviously moved on. It's interesting to revisit AdanR's original post about not "stirring the pot". Clearly the pot has gone off by itself Anyway, here's a bit of on topic discussion about journeys and big shiraz.

As Ozzie said, everyone will have a wine journey. Mine started in Adelaide nearly 50 years ago, riding motorbikes down to McLaren Vale, coming back with bottles stuffed up the leather jacket . Then later Melbourne via Coonawarra, so plenty of shiraz and cabernet, and some interesting whites that were being produced in Coonawarra in the 70's. Interestingly, not much Barossa. London in the early eighties exposed me to Europe and France in particular, most roads leading to Bordeaux, but there were one or two dirt tracks leading to Burgundy and other areas. So, fair bit of exposure to French wines and lots of drinking at the Cork and Bottle Wine Bar in London. Coming back to Oz, my focus shifted back to Australian wines, with a smattering of Victorian and Hunter, but again a focus on SA wines really. An aged Coonawarra cabernet will do me nicely on most occasions. A stint in Thailand in the early 90's created a bit of a wine drought. but its not all terra rossa. In recent years, a few of us who were at Adl uni together years ago have re-grouped and have been touring wine areas, particularly the Barossa I might add, although also venturing to other regions in SA, Victoria and NSW as well as Canterbury and Central Otago (old grumpy blokes with too much time and money on their hands ). I remember visiting Greenock Creek CD a few years ago now. We tasted the '08 Roenfeldt Road wines, a shiraz and a cabernet. They were totally undrinkable as table wines (18% a/v), you might get one glass in with a bit of blue cheese. But there have been many other shiraz wines being made which don't fall into this overblown, high alcohol category. I mention Fraser McKinley at Sami-Odi in the Barossa and Emanuelle Bekkers at Bekkers in McLaren Vale. Both produce beautifully well made shiraz wines. There are many others. In recent years I have drifted overseas again with a bit more focus on France in particular, a very enjoyable burgundy tasting group with Ozzie and others, a little bit of Italian and Spanish, looking at more Bordeaux this year as well. Not much US, Sth American or Sth African yet. Things will continue to evolve, although thankfully, I think we have seen the demise of the high alcohol (>15%) shiraz wines which did typically come from Barossa ... but no thanks in the first instance to RP.

It is a wonderful journey on which you may never get to your destination. Your road may go to Burgundy, it might go elsewhere. The important thing is to enjoy and keep an open mind, although my GPS still seems to keep heading back to Coonawarra a fair bit. Interestingly, even some of the wines there are now coming out with lower alcohol, a return to the medium bodied claret styles produced in years gone by.

Enjoy!

Yeah +1...four days in and thread drift already.
As an example had a beautiful 98 Knappstein Enterprise CV Shiraz...one of the last vintages by Andrew Hardy. A glorious old red in the last stages of life, faint fruit profile, gentle tannin, everything in its place. Yes I love Shiraz, big, perhaps when released, but not now.

Cheers
Craig

Yep, and further thread drift. Last night went out with a few mates and had a massive shiraz with an equally massive steak. But it was from the Yarra Valley- 2005 Yarra Yering Underhill shiraz ( a melting pot of ripe decadence at 15%+ ).

By Farr Tout Pres Pinot Noir 2016 seemed a little shiraz like too. I'm so not used to New World pinot. Great wine!

We'd started with a Musar 99 which was tough to come back to after the fruitiness of the Aussies.

Nothing wrong with YY Underhill Shiraz. One of my favourites from Victoria. Hope I can afford a few of the 18s.
Cheers Craig

Burgundy is subject to snobbery, fraud, arrogance, greed, avarice, dishonesty, and just about every other vice you can think of.
Why?
Because the majority of serious wine lovers/consumers consider it the greatest wine region on Earth, and will pay absurd amounts to own the best of the best from the region.
That is not just my opinion, it is fact. A fact proven by countless surveys, auction results, costings, database searches and land valuations.

I happen to have more Bordeaux than Burgundy in my cellar, about 1700 to 1200 bottles. That is because I find Bordeaux more reliable, better value and easier to access. But not better. If I were a billionaire, I would have all Burgundy. Sadly, I'm not lol.

I also have more than 800 bottles of Australian shiraz still in my cellar, and close to 400 bottles of Aussie Cabernet and, to a much lesser extent Pinot there too. Almost all 18 years or older, the vast majority more than 25 years old. Why? Because neither myself or my sons have any interest in drinking the stuff. Am I a snob? Nup, just don't reckon the stuff is much good. I give it to my friends, brothers, work mates etc, but mostly, they sit in the cellar collecting dust. Loved the stuff 25 years ago, now it bores me senseless. Waste of hepatocytes.

Do all roads lead to Burgundy? Well, they once did, but now the Chinese have discovered the region, you need to have the deepest of pockets to walk that road. Sad, but true.

So what Felix is saying, is many contemporary drinkers who say all roads lead to Burgundy, haven't even drunk the really good wines. They probably just read about them.

And I'd scream for SA shiraz before AOC Bourgogne. This is consistently the most expensive and underperforming generic wine of any region.

JamieBahrain wrote:So what Felix is saying, is many contemporary drinkers who say all roads lead to Burgundy, haven't even drunk the really good wines. They probably just read about them.

And I'd scream for SA shiraz before AOC Bourgogne. This is consistently the most expensive and underperforming generic wine of any region.

in most years, I would agree (2010 2015 are exceptions)
generic Bourgogne is basically sh1t. Even the Burgundians would agree with that. I don't drink it, just like I rarely, these days, drink Aussie shiraz.

I would also agree that many Burgundy lovers will never get to experience wines like DRC RC, or Leflaive's Montrachet. . As I said, the reputation of Burgundy makes it a target for basically every vice known to man!!!

Michael R wrote:I’d agree with this.

One thing I would add is most references to Burgundy on forums tend to assume it’s red. That is a major mistake as in my opinion the best, most consistent wine from Burgundy is white... Premox issues noted.

Represent Mick, represent.

JamieBahrain wrote:So what Felix is saying, is many contemporary drinkers who say all roads lead to Burgundy, haven't even drunk the really good wines. They probably just read about them.

Not sure about that, Polymer has shared all of these bottles with me, so he has an inkling of all the highs and lows. I daresay he has had way, way more than me at this level. I'm just a happy chappy who is able to go along for the ride when circumstances allow.

All I can see there is AOC Bourgogne Dave - I thought Polymer only drank Cali and Oregon Chardonnay???

felixp21 wrote:[
in most years, I would agree (2010 2015 are exceptions)
generic Bourgogne is basically sh1t. Even the Burgundians would agree with that. I don't drink it, just like I rarely, these days, drink Aussie shiraz.

I don't mind Bourgogne Rouge from a number of producers...and more than a few Bourgogne Blancs are pretty decent...These aren't expensive wines either...With a few exceptions, everything is relatively cheap at Bourgogne level even from good producers although some of the better ones are unfortunately creeping into the 60+ range...but you can still find them for 30-40 (USD) in Europe at all sorts of small stores...I mean, outside of Vogue Blanc (which was declassified Musigny Blanc), Coche Bourgogne Blanc and Ente Bourgogne Blanc, I can't think of others that are over the 100 EUR mark as far as retail....Leroy Rouge and Blanc (both which are good) are sub 100, Roulot Blanc is really cheap...PYCM Blanc is cheap...and all of those wines are pretty damn good...Some of the better rouge producers will make a fairly decent Bourgogne Rouge for sub 30...and I'd rather drink those than almost any SA Shiraz out there. I'd argue that it is at this level you can still find decent Burgundy at a reasonable price because it has no prestige and people don't chase it....Sure, it doesn't have the depth and complexity you're looking for from good Burgundy..but it scratches that itch. And outside of that there are some producers making surprisingly good wine from lesser areas that again, are attractive to people that want to drink Burgundy but less so to those that want to be seen with Burgundy....Obviously, in good years they're even better buys.

But generic whatever from a small no name no reputation producer...its pretty bad..it also sells for sub 10 EUR. I don't see a point with this though...all regions have mostly crap wine (by volume) and probably everyone on this board, as educated wine drinkers, drink in that top 5% or even 1%.