Best sub $20 pinot?

[Sean]

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[sjw_11]

Yering Estates "Little Yering" Pinot is pretty good value at ~$13/bottle... Simple, bright fruit flavours, good quaffing.

[simon1980]

Now, this is a topic close to my heart!

A week or so ago, I put on a “sub $23 tasting” for some mates and parents. Apologies for the lack of decent notes, but I did not anticipate typing up (it was a very jolly occasion on the day before my wedding...and the notebook was not allowed!). Anyway, I tried to keep to 2010’s...but this was scuppered by a late arrival (that stole the show!). Here is the list...with what I can recall (all tasted blind for scores):

1. Silverwood 2009 (Mornington). You could spot the vintage from another room. By far and away the most fruit driven wine, with plums and dark cherries leaping out of the glass. On the sweeter side, but good acidity balanced. I felt the wine lacked a bit of backbone. However, the favourite on the night amongst the group of 12, and certainly lovely drinking for the money. Average score of 8.0 out of 10.
2. Coldstream Hills 2010 (Yarra). This was my favourite wine on the night, giving great varietal purity, slightly tart raspberry and spice, and a lovely acid line. Drinking well now, but I suspect will age OK. I have stocked up. Ave 7.6.
3. Hoddles Creek 2010 (Yarra). A different (more serious) beast from the Coldstream. Dark ruby, brooding, blackberries and a bit twiggy (in a nice way)...and in need of a couple of years. Quite serious, but may end up being the best of the lot. Ave 7.1.
4. Bay of Fires 2010 (Tas). Clearly a good wine at a very good price to fit in with the $23 limit, and my No 2 of the night. Very pure nose shouting red fruits, with a grown up gamey element. The palate, however, didn’t quite meet the promise. All very well made, with good plum characters, balanced with good structure... it just seemed to be lacking a little excitement. I think a couple of years would benefit this wine! Ave 7.1.
5. Bellingham 2010 (Mornington). Very light indeed, bright red cherry nose, with a load of spice and more cherry on the palate. Slightly sweet, but with good acidity, and very, very pleasurable to drink. Stunning wine for the price. Ave 6.8.
6. Kooyong Massale 2010 (Mornington). Apologies, no notes taken, but it certainly did not capture the imagination like I expected. Ave 6.8.
7. Tamar Ridge 2010 (Tas). Again no notes taken, however I do recall being frustrated I did not bring the ’09, which appears a much more complete wine. Ave 6.3.
8. Incognito (Shaw & Smith) 2010 (Ad Hills). No notes taken, but pretty uninspiring, thin wine...you can sense the young vines. Ave 5.1.
9. Ashdon Hills Piccadilly 2010 (Ad Hills). No notes taken, but it sticks in the memory! I hope it was a bad bottle, but I actually questioned the cleanliness of the production (there was something wrong). Two people actually gave it 0! Ave 3.3.

So the conclusion for me is: Yarra 2010 (stating the obvious) is a good idea. Get a deal on the Coldstrem Hills, and it’s decent...and try to find some Hoddles Creek (unlikely). Oh, and if you like the fuller style, have a look at Silverwood – a tiny producer (maybe 200 cases or so). A great excuse for supporting one of the little guys too.

Oh, and whatever you do, do not be tempted by the Dr Jones (Mornington) which holds the record for the worst wine I have tasted since arriving in Aus (nearly 3 years ago!).

Simon1980

(apologies I edited to remove the purchase price detail out of respect for Gavin. All wines were purchased for $12-$23)

[TiggerK]

Saw a guy buying 3 cases of the Dr Jones a month or two back, thought I should try one based purely on seeing that. But not great, or even good.

Great thread BTW, yet to be impressed with Pinot under $20, although there was a Waipara one last year around for $16 that I liked. Price is now well above $20 which is typical!

Of course I've yet to try the Hoddles!! Usually all sold by the time I get to looking for it, but I do like their Chardonnay.

Cheers
Tim

[Waiters Friend]

No question. Hoddles Creek by a country mile. The majority of the wines quoted above are $20+

[Sean]

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[odyssey]

4. Bay of Fires 2010 (Tas). Clearly a good wine at a very good price to fit in with the $23 limit, and my No 2 of the night. Very pure nose shouting red fruits, with a grown up gamey element. The palate, however, didn’t quite meet the promise. All very well made, with good plum characters, balanced with good structure... it just seemed to be lacking a little excitement. I think a couple of years would benefit this wine! Ave 7.1.

Bay of Fires for sub $23? Impressive! It's $40 at the cellar door and most places online don't go cheaper than $30.

However if the intent of putting on the tasting was to "find a great, regularly cheap aussie pinot" then it's not really accomplishing that goal...

[cuttlefish]

Oakridge "Over The Shoulder" Pinot Noir 2010 is $20pb cellar door.

I tried this late last year, I think, and it stood out as being quite delicious. Has anyone else tried it ?

[Rossco]

My Favourite for under $ 20 is still Palliser Estate Pencarrow Pinot Noir. NZ....Martinborough....Pinot.....circa $17.....YES PLEASE

I have had the DeBortoli Gulf Station Pinot, and its fantastic! however I have not had the Windy Peak......BUT in a recent tasting

http://www.ozwinereview.com/

says for the $11 its a great wine.

[Polymer]

I'm definitely reading this thread w/ interest...as I've had fairly bad luck finding a good pinot for under 20AUD.

As a general question based on the review above(about the windy peak)...

When people list their pinots for under 20, would you say they are:
A drinkable Pinot for under 20 but not really that great..but hey, a Pinot Noir for under 20..
or
A good Pinot for under 20.

Or something else?

[via collins]

I'll second the Palliser Estate call. The Pencarrow is as fine a second label wine as I've tasted.

Superb wine, and priced at around $17 - $19 in Oz if you can get it. Fondly recall buying it at cellar door a few years back, kicking back and sipping on the lovely lawns there at $11 p.b.

And another vote for Hoddles Creek too. Just pulled some 08s out of the cellar, will post thoughts after cracking.

[Sean]

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[rens]

Great Post Sean.
I agree with you when you say 'I think anytime you drink a pinot you want a good pinot, not just something that tastes like a pinot'
Whilst I can drink pinot that just tastes like pinot, I'm fussy about what I like. The best way I can describe the types of Pinot I prefer are a ‘shiraz drinkers’ pinot. By that I mean a fuller bodied pinot with more emphasis on tannin structure than acid. A great example is the 2007 Amisfield Pinot (about $37 on release). It is dense and dark with a full round palate grippy tannins. The follow up vintages have relied too much on the Acid to give the wine its structure. The Waipara mentioned earlier is a pretty good example of what I’m talking about in the sub $20 category (but the Amisfield was much better IMHO and probably should be at double the price).

[simon1980]

4. Bay of Fires 2010 (Tas). Clearly a good wine at a very good price to fit in with the $23 limit, and my No 2 of the night. Very pure nose shouting red fruits, with a grown up gamey element. The palate, however, didn’t quite meet the promise. All very well made, with good plum characters, balanced with good structure... it just seemed to be lacking a little excitement. I think a couple of years would benefit this wine! Ave 7.1.

Bay of Fires for sub $23? Impressive! It's $40 at the cellar door and most places online don't go cheaper than $30.

However if the intent of putting on the tasting was to "find a great, regularly cheap aussie pinot" then it's not really accomplishing that goal...

Oh, I know, but I left it in there for the sake of completeness! It was $23 from a big box. I was almost dragged over by the fine wine manager to be shown the crazy price. Sadly, I did not realise just how good a price it was until I looked it up a day or so later...of course it was all gone by the time I returned.

The only wines that were above $20 on my list were: Coldstream / Bay of Fires / Kooyong.

Simon

[Polymer]

Great Post Sean.
I agree with you when you say 'I think anytime you drink a pinot you want a good pinot, not just something that tastes like a pinot'
Whilst I can drink pinot that just tastes like pinot, I'm fussy about what I like. The best way I can describe the types of Pinot I prefer are a ‘shiraz drinkers’ pinot. By that I mean a fuller bodied pinot with more emphasis on tannin structure than acid. A great example is the 2007 Amisfield Pinot (about $37 on release). It is dense and dark with a full round palate grippy tannins. The follow up vintages have relied too much on the Acid to give the wine its structure. The Waipara mentioned earlier is a pretty good example of what I’m talking about in the sub $20 category (but the Amisfield was much better IMHO and probably should be at double the price).

It is funny that you describe your preferred Pinot that was a "shiraz drinkers" Pinot because that is how I describe Australian Pinot Noir. A Pinot Noir made like a Shiraz... I don't mind big tannins as long as the acid is there...A good Pinot that has the structure to go the long haul is great... generally I prefer a more medium bodied, higher acid, good tannins and a bit more finesse.

I actually think it is harder to make a good Pinot when you make it like a Shiraz...which is also why there tends to be a lot of not so good examples in Australia....and why at the lower end NZ Pinot tends to be a bit better and it is easier to find reasonably good NZ Pinot at a lower price. BIG Pinots made like a Shiraz can be good and they're enjoyable to drink but they're hard to find and tend to be fairly expensive...

[rens]

BIG Pinots made like a Shiraz can be good and they're enjoyable to drink but they're hard to find and tend to be fairly expensive

And I guess that is what I was trying to get at. I like them big like a Shiraz. I think the cooler climates (more so NZ than Australian 'cool climates') are a better terrior for Pinot.
Disclaimer: Mind you that statement is made by a small time pinot drinker and no expert.

[Sean]

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[Polymer]

Funny you say that because I thought a lot of Kiwi pinots seemed shiraz-like ten years ago. I even wondered if they were putting shiraz into them!

I didn't drink much NZ Pinot from 10 years ago..although I have a few bottles of 2001 Ata Rangi which are definitely not shiraz like...on a slightly different subject, NZ wine has improved a LOT in the last 10 years....

To illustrate this, try a Coldstream Hills or Yering Station or TMBT pinot and then the reserve. The latter can be almost undrinkable on release and needs a few years more for everything to settle in. Some people call this structure, but I think it is just use of too much oak and tannin anyway and probably intended to make a masculine style of pinot that some burgundy producers have a reputation for. Some people also think a pinot needs this to be able to age and develop, but like what happens with any heavily extracted wine if the acid isn’t there the wine is going to fall into a messy heap instead. So I suspect the reason why there are not too many ageworthy pinots is because making one is not the same as making say an ageworthy shiraz.

I agree completely. Far too many Australian Pinots with big oak, big tannins but unlike a Burg, they'll lack the acid for it to age properly. I don't have any issues with Pinots with big structure that are made to cellar...but these aren't the ones...and I think a lot of Australian Pinots suffer from this...

Because they make it like a shiraz, what they're concentrating on is different...To be fair, Australians seem to like this style of Pinot...or at least that is the impression I get from the everyday wine drinker (the ones I see and know) as well as some on this board....

In any case, I would think a shiraz style of pinot is the last thing anyone making a pinot would want. I have noticed the reverse actually (or at least I did until I became quite desensitized to it) because those pinot producers who also make a shiraz tend to make a shiraz that seems almost pinot-like. The shiraz from Bannockburn (when Gary Farr was there), Merricks Estate and Paringa Estate come to mind. The latter is interesting because I think they push the boundaries with their pinots as well as their shiraz and have come up with a idiosyncratic and attention-grabbing style that some love and some hate.

You would think so..but it seems to me that is what we get a lot of...Shiraz like Pinots..it seems odd. There are producers that aren't like that of course...but I think there is a reason Aussie Pinot is not popular anywhere else...I think the only one people outside of Australia know is Bass Phillip (which I also think makes the best Australian Pinot by a wide margin).
I don't want it to seem like I'm bashing this style of Pinot...there are some pretty good "big" pinots...I think Yarra Yering makes one...Very much like a fruit bomb Shiraz but pretty decent acidity....

[chrisf]

FWIW received the latest Hillcrest Vineyard newsletter and the 2009 Estate Pinot is being cleared out at $20/bottle. This would give the Hoddles ck a good run for its money. Well worth a look.
Cheers

[Mahmoud Ali]

Why would anyone want to drink a "fruit bomb" Pinot Noir, or a "Shiraz-like" one for that matter. As long as producers continue to make these kind of caricature wines they will not gain the respect of true Pinot lovers anywhere in the world.

Just my two cents............Mahmoud.

[Waiters Friend]

Fully agree, Mahmoud. There are pinots, and there are dry reds made from pinot noir. Please bring on the former.

[Waiters Friend]

FWIW received the latest Hillcrest Vineyard newsletter and the 2009 Estate Pinot is being cleared out at $20/bottle. This would give the Hoddles ck a good run for its money. Well worth a look.
Cheers

Does anyone know why the 2009 is going out so cheaply? I am a fan of this winery's product.

[Polymer]

Why would anyone want to drink a "fruit bomb" Pinot Noir, or a "Shiraz-like" one for that matter. As long as producers continue to make these kind of caricature wines they will not gain the respect of true Pinot lovers anywhere in the world.

Just my two cents............Mahmoud.

A lot of Australians seem to like that style of pinot though......Maybe it is because they're used to Big Reds that something with a bit more finesse seems "wimpy". I've actually heard it referred to as that. I mean, I can see where people might feel that way if they're used to much bigger reds...

I can't be sure this is the reason you don't see much out there internationally.....but it wouldn't surprise me... I haven't actually searched out Australian Pinot in other countries but I have definitely seen more Australian Semillon than Australian Pinot..which I think says a lot...Contrast this to NZ Pinot..which you can find in many different countries and many different sorts...

[Sean]

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[Sean]

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[Sean]

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[Polymer]

Why would anyone want to drink a "fruit bomb" Pinot Noir, or a "Shiraz-like" one for that matter. As long as producers continue to make these kind of caricature wines they will not gain the respect of true Pinot lovers anywhere in the world.

Just my two cents............Mahmoud.

A lot of Australians seem to like that style of pinot though......Maybe it is because they're used to Big Reds that something with a bit more finesse seems "wimpy". I've actually heard it referred to as that. I mean, I can see where people might feel that way if they're used to much bigger reds...

I can't be sure this is the reason you don't see much out there internationally.....but it wouldn't surprise me... I haven't actually searched out Australian Pinot in other countries but I have definitely seen more Australian Semillon than Australian Pinot..which I think says a lot...Contrast this to NZ Pinot..which you can find in many different countries and many different sorts...

Sorry about the edits to my earlier post, but I wanted to fix a couple of sentences. Not anything you quoted by the way.

While I am critical of Australian pinots (at the premium level really) I actually think there is lots to like if you look around - both the Australian ones and Kiwi ones. Frankly it is ridiculous and even mischievous to describe all Australian pinots as shiraz-like.

You seem to have a rosy view of Kiwi pinots and a very negative one of Australian pinots. I am not going to change your opinion of course. But I am interested to see some examples of better Kiwi sub $20 pinots that you have had, so could you suggest a few pls?

But not the cordial-like pinots from Marlborough of which there seem to be oceans of being dumped on the supermarket shelves here these days. A lot of it probably subsidised by the poor Australian taxpayer and making one or two in the local wine industry livid with the schmuck in govt who came up with the WET rebate scheme in the first place - allowing NZ producers to claim the rebate on wine sales here because of our trade agreement.

First it was Kiwi sav blanc (see the link to the Age story below) and now it is pinot.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertain ... ntentSwap1

I don't see how WET rebate is subsidized by the Australian taxpayer at all. It is not like they get paid money that came out of the pockets of Australians or the government (although I guess you can look at money not collected as that)....its just that on a certain amount of sales, they don't have to pay extra to sell it in Australia. The same thing applies to ALL Australian wine. To be honest, it is about time we start seeing some of that because a lot of NZ wine sells for ridiculous prices in Australia. They sell for more AUD (number wise) than NZD...After you do a currency conversion, it is sometimes 50-100% more.

First thing, I'm not saying all Australian Pinot is Shiraz like, in fact, I've been very careful to make sure I don't say all because that is definitely not true....but a lot IS made that way....I'd say most of it is (for every 1 that isn't there are probably 5-7 that are). To many Australians that might not be the case but when I compare it to Pinot globally, it seems that way to me...Even Pinots people in Australia consider medium/light bodied, when you compare it to Pinot globally, they're very much on the heavier side. It is like the Sydney International Wine Competition where they had that top 100 tasting. The lighter bodied wines were all full bodied wines..it was just that the full bodied category were all GIANT wines..It is all relative to what you're used to.

As far as the cheap cordial like Pinot from NZ...Some of it is a bit too fruity, I don't consider it sweet....They're certainly not overly complex wines but they're less flawed and more representative of the variety....There are of course, sub20 Australian pinots that are drinkable. I think there are more NZ sub20 that are drinkable...Let me clarify, this does not mean I consider the wine good but when your options are: Medium bodied, high acidity, low/medium tannins, a bit too fruity.. vs. Full bodied, low acid, medium tannins, less fruit...Forgetting about all of the funny flaws and which actually represents the variety better, I'd pick the former...

Can I think of any GOOD NZ Pinots under 20? Nothing at full retail that I thought was GOOD. I'm actually watching this thread to find something under 20 that is good (eg. I'm keeping an eye out for Hoddles Creek). There are a number of good NZ Pinot I've bought NOT retail and not in Australia that were under 20 (Surveyor Thomson, Ata Rangi for example).

[Mahmoud Ali]

Sean,

I too should make clear that in no way did I mean to suggest that all Australian Pinots were "fruit bombs" or "Shiraz-like". I was just being a bit pointed in declaring my preferences for what I consider Pinot.

It's certainly off topic but I was just going through the latest edition of Langtons "Classification of Australian Wine" (2010) and see that among the 123 wines in the four categories there are a total of 10 Pinot Noirs, one in the "Exceptional" top tier, three in the "Outstanding" second tier, four in the "Excellent" third tier, and two in the "Distinguished" fourth tier.

A couple of wineries have two Pinot wines listed, Bass Philip and Bindi. The other wineries are Bannockburn, Coldstream Hills, Mount Mary, Main Ridge Estate, Paringa Estate, and Freycinet. I've not had any of these wines but am now wondering how they fit in the fruit vs terrior, big vs medium-bodied scheme of things. Any opinions out there?

On a lighter note i notice that half the Pinot wines in the ranking begin with the letter "B".

Cheers...................Mahmoud.

[Sean]

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[Sean]

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