Baby Penfold's

[newworld]

Newbie here.

With all the fuss about Penfold's hiking up the prices to its home market and with them always using the adjective 'baby' in their marketing to liken their cheaper wines to their iconic labels (389 - 'Baby Grange', 407 - 'baby 707', etc,) I thought it would be interesing to get regulars to give better value alternatives to the Bin series. Wines that come close in style and quality, but are cheaper - much cheaper if possible. You can give the lowest price as most people wait for the specials before stocking up.

I'll start the ball rolling. I'm sure my egs are a bit out, but its a start

Baby 389 - Majella Musician $16, Yalumba the Scribbler $15
Baby 407 - Wynns Black Label $18, Ringbolt cabernet $18 (told you I was a newbie )
Baby 138 - Shingleback Red Knot GSM $11, d'Arenberg Stump Jump GSM $11
Baby 128 - Annie's Lane shiraz $8, Wynns shiraz $9
Baby 28 - Cimicky Trumps $13, Teusner the Riebke $16, Pepperjack shiraz $15

OK. Stop laughing!!!!!!!!! What do you think?????????

[Malo-mad]

As a fellow newbie to the board, I think you're being quite reasonable - probably most people want as high quality for as little dough as poss. There may be some sniffy people who might like to have a pop at you, but I'm not one of them. Hey, I just want to know what's good to drink!

Reds aren't really my area of interest but I guess what the discussion includes is:
- Can serious reds be cheap? (i guess depends on definition of 'cheap')
- Can high quality wines be way cheaper than the marques?
- Can as much enjoyment be had from cheapies compared to the marques?
- Has Penfolds (and others) alienated their home market?
- Will the cheapies fall over after a year or two while the marques keep getting better?

I guess the answer to these qu's will be mostly 'yes'. But there'll be exceptions so I'll leave those to the more experienced red drinkers to educate us on the board.

Btw, I really was blown away - as were my wino mates who i took for a long lunch recently - by the Lake Breeze Bernoota 2008 cab shiraz. A blackberry fruit bomb but with enough acid/tannin structure to carry the Langhorne Creek fruit very well.

Actually, I was a bit embarrassed when the restaurant said they had run out of Yering Station cab about which I'd been banging on at them so then discreetly had to ask the waiter for a recommendation. He did us proud. Bernoota is about $18 in the bottlos ($35 at the restaurant) and the lads asked for a second bottle! Great with lamb chops.

I like to read the recommendations at the back of WINE magazine as they seem reliable. And I trust Halliday's palate and descriptions.

[newworld]

I love you In a 'bromance' kind of way

I too like Halliday. Except for his 'elegant' WA reds. I guess I'll like them one day. But I'll just enjoy what I enjoy and see if my palate changes (as it does constantly.....)

[Malo-mad]

Thanks mate - I'm here to learn, as well as pontificate!

Yeah, it's funny the language writers use, like 'elegant'. It's a word I've got to hate! Doesn't describe much.

Being in WA, I'm very used to 'elegant' for MR wines - whites as well. But I reckon he's saying a mixture of 'lighter bodied' and 'well made' and 'admirable' although I could be wrong. What do you reckon?

I keep away from 'elegant' wines - they've turned out too often to not be my preferred style. Maybe my taste-buds are stuffed cos I really go for the BIG wines - big flavours (reds in the blackcurrant, cassis, black cherry end of the spectrum, preferably with a heavy dose of licorice and a pinch of eucalyptus) and those ready for drinking NOW!

Okay, I may not be super-sophisticated but all I want is a smooth, opulent red with soft tannins that satisfies me NOW and COMPLETELY. Really, I'm not the sort of guy to harp on about acid, muse over tannins, dissect every nuance of nose and palate. I just want to damn good bloody drink and to love it to death. Or maybe I'm just a hedonist!

Perhaps that's why I don't drink much Pinot. I don't dislike it as a drink, there's just not enough body to satisfy me completely now.

Whites are different for me. Mega complexity is important in my enjoyment.

Gone off topic. Sorry.

[Malo-mad]

Just thought, 'elegant' may also mean 'subtle' in which case... ain't for me.

[TiggerK]

Wow, great talk going on here guys,

I wonder, newworld & malo-mad, you obviously like the exaggerated styles of wine, both white and red, and not going to argue as those styles are easy to enjoy! So how long have you been drinking wine with a sense of 'being into wine'?? I only ask, as many drinkers (certainly including me) find that they start off loving the big styles, big buttery toasty oak chardonnay, rich, ripe, decadent and oaky young reds and so on, but over time and after trying a wide and high quality range of styles, varietals, aged wines and the wines of different countries, many of my friends and myself find ourselves drawn more towards what you might call 'elegant' wines... I think elegant is best described as having a structural balance of fruit, tannins and acid. It will seem less decadent than a typical massive fruity red, but to me now (not 10 years ago), offers more depth and interest, and if you're so inclined, much easier to drink more of! Subtle? I suppose compared to fruity monsters, then yes, but to me those 'monsters' can be one dimensional, and dare I say it, a bit boring. Although your description of the 'big flavours' sound pretty good to me! I suspect you just like a really good red wine!! And you'll take Aussie over Bordeaux anyday.....

But wine is such a crazy complex subject, with as many opinions as there are bottles. Each to their own, that's what we like here, so many palates and opinions. And of course it's all done in the Best Possible Taste (cue crossing of legs). Hope I'm not being sniffy!

I suppose what I'm really trying to say is that big can be great, but there is a lot of enjoyment to be had in subtle and elegant as well, if you're prepared to look a bit beyond the hedonism.

Cheers!
Tim

[newworld]

Oh my. It's just a matter of time before some sneering connoisseur joins the thread and puts us in our place

No, seriously. I hope some non-newbie can tell me what wines can stand in for the Bins for a lower price.

(BTW I love big SA reds, but I now enjoy pinot noir. If you try the Estate pinots from the likes of Coldstream Hills, Saville Estates, Paringa Estate, etc. They are full flavoured, classically pinot tasting but without the spicy/oaky complexity that their 'reserve' wines have. I'd say the same about chardonnay. The reserves seem to have more oak, but they do taste great after, say, 5 years - but $60 and a 5 year wait? Nah! Enjoy the Estate pinots NOW and enjoy spending the change )

Tim. Thanks for the nice words I've only been drinking wine for a year if you don't include cleanskins Actually, I like balanced wines. I don't like oaky wines - especially whites. Though a good bit of American oak in a shiraz can be nice ("Ooh! Did he say A-ME-rican? Yuk!") I like Chris Ringland shiraz (the $20 one ) which I think is balanced, despite the alchohol.

I like Annies Lane Riesling, Wynns cabernet (2009 vintage), lots of Barossa shirazes, good quality early release pinots/chardonnays (see above.) I used to like Sauv Blanc, but taste change

But concentrated wines seem to attract big scores - even from Halliday (Grange, anyone?) So, high scoring 'elegant' wines seem a bit weird (and lacking flavour )

[newworld]

Now, back to the thread's theme............

What wines could be described as:

Baby 389 -
Baby 407 -
Baby 138 -
Baby 128 -
Baby 28 -

[dave vino]

I wonder, newworld & malo-mad, you obviously like the exaggerated styles of wine, both white and red, and not going to argue as those styles are easy to enjoy! So how long have you been drinking wine with a sense of 'being into wine'?? I only ask, as many drinkers (certainly including me) find that they start off loving the big styles, big buttery toasty oak chardonnay, rich, ripe, decadent and oaky young reds and so on, but over time and after trying a wide and high quality range of styles, varietals, aged wines and the wines of different countries, many of my friends and myself find ourselves drawn more towards what you might call 'elegant' wines... I

Cheers!
Tim

As one of his friends he is talking hogwash viva la buttery oaky chardies and big, bold reds!

Baby 389 - Rockford Rifle Range
Baby 407 - Vasse Felix Cab Sav
Baby 138 - Hewitson Miss Harry
Baby 128 - Wynns Shiraz
Baby 28 - Longhop Adelaide Hills Shiraz

[newworld]

Dave Vino.

Thanks. That's how to do it!

I don't know the odd numbered ones.....Just check with Google...........right..........

The first one is nearly as expensive as 389, so that's DQ , but the others are good (I'll let you have the Miss Harry - just )

I'm glad you picked one from my list. At least they aren't all wrong

Anyone else? Surely Yalumba the Scribble is a baby 389 for the cellar?

Me and MM you probably prefer the Musician, though, due to its low oak and hence its good to go now!

[Craig(NZ)]

Satrams Mamre Brook Shiraz and Cab

$20 here in NZ

[newworld]

Thanks Craig/

So, are you saying:

Baby 389 -
Baby 407 - Satrams Mamre Brook Cabernet?
Baby 138 -
Baby 128 -
Baby 28 - Satrams Mamre Brook Shiraz?

Great! How about the others. Any other recommendations for other Penfold's replacements?

[newworld]

As I said, I'm not experienced enough to know which wines are baby Penfold's, but of the wines I listed my absolute favourites are:

Baby 389 - Majella Musician 2010 $16 - easy drinking!
Baby 407 - Wynns Black Label 2009 $18 - superb!
Baby 138 - (not found one, yet. I was impressed with the current Penfold's release, given that I don't normally like grenache-dominant wines)
Baby 128 - Not really a cool-climate shiraz man, but maybe one that I forgot to list from the Adelaide Hills - Mike Press shiraz 2009 (I found the 2010 extremely oaky. I have no idea why Halliday said the oak was perfectly integrated. It stuck out like a sore thumb to my naive palate)
Baby 28 - Cimicky Trumps 2008 $13 - fantastic America oak (French wine fans - please stop laughing )

[AndrewCowley]

Baby 389: Yalumba Signature.

[rens]

Baby 389: Yalumba Signature.

x2

[newworld]

Yalumba Signature is more a younger brother than a baby 389

I was thinking sub-$20 if at all possible.....

[DJ]

Does my head in caling Wynns Black Label C/S a baby 407. First vintage of 407 was 1990, First vintage of Wynns C/S in the 1950s!

[newworld]

Better see a specialist about that....

Forget about labelling stuff, my point, and sorry if I didn't spell it out word for word, is that Penfold's are taking the pi$$ and I think it's time to find alternatives.

Sorry if I caused confusion!

[Malo-mad]

Hey Newworld et al,

Ordered a bottle of 2010 Majella Musician yesterday at a cafe - gotta say I'm usually a BIG fan - but OMG what a let-down! A bit thin, rough (rustic), very tannic and not at all a baby (substitute) 389. Gag. I couldn't finish one glass - had to tip the rest (actually gave it to the staff).

Okay, maybe the problem was having John Duval Entity Shiraz 2009 at lunch which was an OMG (brilliant) drink - what the yanks call a real 'tits and ass' wine - just the way I like it, of course: sumptuous nose of vanilla and black fruits reproduced on the palate, which was voluptuous hedonistic (a real sexy beast), full and softly smooth. The guys were getting a bit turned on by my description to them!

About 2 hours later we moved our long lunch to the beach for a little more vino - then the let down. Damn. \So changed to the John Duval Plexus GSM 2009 - alas, although a lovely wine, not a good follow-on - this is a grown-up GSM: somewhat savoury, southern Rhone-ish, light-bodied in the bright red fruited spectrum, quite acidic - all good but not my style. Should have stuck to Barossa.

In fact, I was tempted by the Brown Brothers Patricia Cab Sav. Can anyone tell me what it's like? Although I like big, fruit-generous reds, I don't like mocha/esspresso flavours and was thinking Brown Bros at Milawa might be that way inclined.

Btw, we had Lauent Perrier Rose shampoo as an aperitif and desert wine was Brown Bros Patricia botrytis riesling - both perfect. Prawn starter, Lamb shoulder that fell off the bone, pavlova dessert - a great lunch.

TiggerK - to answer your qu: although I'm a newbie to the board, I've been drinking vino for over 30 yrs and started on the lighter bodied, elegant varieties. I've progressed completely opposite to you! I've gone to bigger and bigger styles of white and red! However, I do enjoy all sorts of wines, but my preference is for the big boys. (Is rose a man's drink? Sure - I enjoy it wearing my wife's high heels and underwear.)

Back to topic - so... Penfolds may be taking the p**s but unfortunately, they do make exceedingly good wines (like Mr Kipling makes exceedingly good cakes - although that's definitely a lie!).

Hard to match at $20 wine to each. I'll keep you posted if something crops up to substitute. May have more chance at the $30 price point.

[Polymer]

Penfolds makes exceedingly good wines? They have some fantastic wine but their bin series is absolutely nothing special. They are good at not making offensive wine...but do I think the new bins (28, 128, 138) are worth their new RRP? Or even what will be the new street (27-30)? Pretty easy to find better wines in the 20 dollar range...and they'll likely have more personality as well. I actually agree w/ someone that said they have a hard time thinking of anything as a Baby XXX..partially because it seems rather insulting to those wines...I understand the idea (finding an alternative, ideally better alternative) though...

I think the reason TiggerK mentioned the palate thing is because most people's palates seem to change like that...not everyone. I think after awhile most people start really wanting or needing that acid..which is something most fruit bomb type wines lack...Maybe it is because after having too much acid, you have burned skin off your mouth and you need it..who knows..but either way, it is just a general statement that tends to be true for a majority of wine geeks...I personally like reds with a bit more acid....although I do enjoy the occasional, hedonistic, teeth staining fruit bomb...For me the main downside to these wines is they don't go with most foods...Meat or dark chocolate and that's about it. They also tend to be very in your face and have less complexity or at least the complexity is harder to find because everything else is so big....They eventually become a bit boring....which is why I like to drink them here or there..to keep them exciting.

John Duval makes some fantastic wine...Oddly enough I had the opposite opinion on his Plexus/Entity.... haven't had the 2009 so maybe that is it..I actually felt the Plexus was very confectionery like....very much a fruit bomb of a wine..very good though..one of the better GSM blends in Australia. His Entity I didn't think was a fruit bomb..It is definitely close though..but very well made..an excellent Shiraz...and actually something I think has a good reputation overseas as well....

[Malo-mad]

Everyone has different tastes - even a**holes like you Polymer. Viva la difference. And I think only cynical curmudgeons like you would say Penfolds make poor wine. Have a great weekend... And life.

[newworld]

Calm down, lads!

Penfold's make wine at many levels of quality from average commercial grade to the fantastic. The problem is that they charge too much due to their 'Premium' image. Just about any label in their portfolio from Rawson's Retreat to the Bin series can often be blown out of the water with other similarly priced wines.

BTW Halliday actually called the Musicial 'a baby Bin 389' in '1001 wines under $20.'

MM: Not sure what happened to your bottle of Musician, but here's what the critics say:

Jeremy Oliver says:
The best Musician to this time and a delicious Coonawarra red of genuine depth, intensity and elegance. Scented with fresh violets, blackcurrants, mulberries, cherries, plus and a whiff of pepper, it's backed by sweet, cedar/vanilla oak and reserved herbal undertones. Polished, supple and pliant, it delivers a fine length of translucent small berry and plum-like fruit backed by smooth tannins and finished by fresh acids. Charmingly fresh and balanced.

James Halliday says:
This 55/45% blend has seemingly welded itself to the under $20 red list for the Top 100. The vivid crimson-magenta colour and fragrant black fruit bouquet lead into a vibrant palate with excellent length and balance. Fruit tannins and oak all play their role in a classic medium-bodied frame; drink any time over the next nine years.

Can't disagree with any of that personally. Can't see why else you wouldn't like it other than a dodgy bottle.

[Polymer]

Everyone has different tastes - even a**holes like you Polymer. Viva la difference. And I think only cynical curmudgeons like you would say Penfolds make poor wine. Have a great weekend... And life.

What is up w/ all of the people that can not read?

Did I say they made poor wine? No..I said their bin series is absolutely nothing special..and they aren't. If that hurts your feelings there is nothing I can do about that. I'm sorry you feel obligated to buy their wine as you suggested (because "unfortunately, they make exceedingly good wines" according to you). I'm sorry you feel you have to do that. What is so interesting to me is you enjoy the John Duval Entity, which sh*ts all over the bin series...Sells for less than the 389 (granted that is Shiraz/Cab) and only slightly more than the 128/28....But you feel obligated to defend Penfolds...

And as I said in my last post, Penfolds does make some fantastic stuff...The bin series just isn't it.

Except for the rain, this weekend has been pretty great...thanks..Life too...Wine as well...

Here is my quote:

Penfolds makes exceedingly good wines? They have some fantastic wine but their bin series is absolutely nothing special. They are good at not making offensive wine...but do I think the new bins (28, 128, 138) are worth their new RRP? Or even what will be the new street (27-30)? Pretty easy to find better wines in the 20 dollar range...and they'll likely have more personality as well.

[newworld]

Unfortunately many people don't read carefully (including myself.)

[rens]

Don't feed the troll.

[Michael McNally]

Don't feed the troll.

Trolls can feed of each other - like zombies (um I think).

[mf]

So sad - this thread was going so well.

I struggle to come up with some "baby" wines for this line which does raise a point for how I perceive their value. For most of the range I can think of quite a few wines that I would rather buy at the same price (although not easy to beat when deeply discounted) but is hard to think of much cheaper wines that I regard as the same quality. I thought these wines (and a lot of other Penfolds wines) strength and weakness is that I thought they were made to some kind of "formula" (may be imagining this but I thought Peter Gago even made this comment in relation to Grange). So it is unsurprising that they would have some loyal fans that would like them every year and others that are never big fans. One reason I find it difficult to come up with baby wines is because Bin 389, Bin 407 and Bin 28 are "South Australian" wines - again maybe a strength and a weakness, a strength because Penfolds presumably have access to a massive range of grapes across a number of regions and can pick and choose year to year which regions to take grapes from, and maybe a weakness because if you are looking for specific regional character then these wines may not have that. Alternately, for Bin 138 I feel I am limited to Barossa (although for a GSM/SGM blend that may not be much of a limitation) and for Bin 128 I feel I am limited to Coonawarra (which I do see as a significant limitation).

For what it is worth Bin 389 is the only wine in the range that I regularly buy, have never bought Bin 407 or Bin 28 - only occurs to me now that this may make some sense given they are not specific region wines, whereas for Bin 128 I have only bought one vintage and Bin 138 I will buy a bottle here and there (have never taken this wine too seriously but actually enjoy quite a lot - I enjoy a GSM now and then).

Despite all these difficulties I encounter (I deal with the big issues!) here is an attempt at the list (some repetitive)

Baby 389 - Both Majella Musician and Yalumba the Scribbler (although 2009 is the only one I have really liked) seem like good options but don't think they compare to Bin 389. One other option, maybe ironically, may be Penfolds Koonunga Hill "76" Shiraz Cabernet
Baby 407 - I am limiting to South Aus regions - Wynns is a good one, would agree with Saltram Mamre Brook (both of these wines need to be on discount though) - other options might be Yalumba Cigar and Penley Estate Phoenix.
Baby 138 - A tough one - you may call these "baby brother's" - Hewitson Miss Harry and Teusner Joshua
Baby 128 - A tough one again - only can think of Wynns but think need to be very careful on vintage
Baby 28 - Teusner Riebke, Mike Press, Jacon's Creek Reserve, Thorn-Clarke Shotfire (if found at a discounted price), D'Arenberg Footbolt

[Gavin Trott]

Everyone has different tastes - even a**holes like you Polymer. Viva la difference. And I think only cynical curmudgeons like you would say Penfolds make poor wine. Have a great weekend... And life.

This forum does not wish for personal attacks please, we all have different opinions, that's why a forum works, especially this one.

Debates yes, differences of opinions, sure, but please no personal attacks as above, we will be avoiding those, does not help the debate.

Back to the debate

BTW and FWIW I tries the new Bin Series wines, and, well, at the risk of a response like above, was underwhelmed, greatly underwhelmed.

Just my opinion, of course, but Bin 128 ... boring

Bin 28 ... very commercial and boring

Bin 407 ... pretty good, but WAY over priced

Bin 389 ... very good indeed, but even more WAY overpriced.

Just a wine lover's 2 c worth.

.

[mf]

Everyone has different tastes - even a**holes like you Polymer. Viva la difference. And I think only cynical curmudgeons like you would say Penfolds make poor wine. Have a great weekend... And life.

This forum does not wish for personal attacks please, we all have different opinions, that's why a forum works, especially this one.

Debates yes, differences of opinions, sure, but please no personal attacks as above, we will be avoiding those, does not help the debate.

Back to the debate

BTW and FWIW I tries the new Bin Series wines, and, well, at the risk of a response like above, was underwhelmed, greatly underwhelmed.

Just my opinion, of course, but Bin 128 ... boring

Bin 28 ... very commercial and boring

Bin 407 ... pretty good, but WAY over priced

Bin 389 ... very good indeed, but even more WAY overpriced.

Just a wine lover's 2 c worth.

.

Out of interest what approximate price would you think is appropriate for these wines (trying to get some context of being "WAY" overpriced - I ask because there can be a massive differential between RRP (on which I would say 28, 407 and 128 are over priced) and the price I actually think of as being what you actually pay for these wines (where I think they can be good if not great value - eg. Bin 389 for RRP of $75 I would say is at best OK value but that has no relationship to the price I expect to pay of around $50, where I still see it as good value). I would note that I would say Bin 389 is a significant standout to the rest of the range.

[Gavin Trott]

Good question, Bin 389, if I really wanted it, and if it were $40.00 plus perhaps a little bit, would be pretty good value I think. Once you get to $50.00 there would be better options for me.

That said, its not really my personal favourite style of wine, so probably worth a few $ more for those who love it.