Yanks and Stelvin

[Chuck]

Yanks generally still don't like Stelvin despite it being IMO the greatest advancement in wine for a long time. A mate is a consultant to Thorn Clarke (Eden Valley) whose wines punch well above their weight. The 2010 Sandpiper Shiraz was one of the runner ups in Winestate's recent best of varietal 2011 so I ordered a case in cleanskin. It came in cork with a piece of plastic on the base of the cork probably to limit any TCA contact. The Sandpiper like most TC wines come in Stelvin so it would appear this was destined for the USA. One day those yanks will understand stelvin produces amazing consistency. The only issue with stelvin is its ability to hide poor storage. No leaking corks or low levels which is a concern in the secondary markets.

[Polymer]

Americans associate corks with quality and screwcaps with being cheap...just out of pure ignorance but there IS something to that train of thought..

Most of the old world wines are all done in cork still. It sounds like they're experimenting but I think everyone is still not sure how well reds will age under screwcap. When I say age, I mean 10, 20, 30 years type of thing...I think the Hill of Grace is the only global top tier wine that is not done under cork. So when you see all of the top Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo, etc, done under cork, it is logical to assume that the best wines are done with cork...and when you see Yellowtail done with screwcap, you associate that with being cheap.

[bob parsons]

I think you two are dead wrong and I will go to my regular haunt in the next couple of days and list those I find with SC!

[Polymer]

Dead wrong about what? The perception of screwcaps in the US? There is a huge difference between the perception of screwcaps and finding wine with screwcaps. You can find wine with screwcaps in the US...but many Australian producers will indeed bottle with cork if they're expecting to export and would like to hit a certain price point...Some don't bother..but many do...

[Panda 9D]

I have a much easier time selling wine with a cork than stelvin. People in Japan associate stelvin with cheaper wines. It's becoming more acceptable with whites but most sommeliers here consider it to be inappropriate for long term aging... much to my frustration.

[Brucer]

I have been buying lots of "cancelled export orders" and they are sealed with cork, where the same wine for sale in Oz is sealed with screwcap.
For me, I would not buy a white wine sealed with cork.
I still buy wine sealed with cork, but only cause they are cheap.
I am very happy to buy all my reds in future sealed with screwcap.
Some very good wines sealed with screwcap that come to mind....
Cullen Diana Madalein Cabernet
Penfolds Bin 60A and Block 42 2004
Henschke Mt Edelstone
Wendouree
Penfolds St Henri
Wolf Blass Black Label
Mosswood Cabernet

There is still a lot of wineries selling their good stuff sealed with cork.
I have not found too may crook diam corks, so prefer them.
But we are at the mercy of the winemaker/owner, if they prefer to use corks......
Rockford
Kaesler
Two Hands
Torbreck
Yalumba
Standish

[Polymer]

I don't think this is an argument FOR corks...I prefer screwcap or even diam over cork....But I think it is about Americans and corks...

Here are two somewhat recent tastings of Bordeaux with screwcap.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... rgaux+cork
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/tastingsfo ... 012a.shtml

I thought all screwcaps had some ingress of oxygen but hard to really say what they were using. A bit surprised by the results as whites seem to age perfectly fine under screwcap (at least Semillon and Rieslings do). Of course, this is just one tasting, not even sure of the wine and exact closures....Expect to see more and more of these come out though.

I think everyone wants to ditch cork..but only if they can find something better in all the areas they feel are important..

[bob parsons]

Dead wrong about what? The perception of screwcaps in the US? There is a huge difference between the perception of screwcaps and finding wine with screwcaps. You can find wine with screwcaps in the US...but many Australian producers will indeed bottle with cork if they're expecting to export and would like to hit a certain price point...Some don't bother..but many do...

Corection Polymer. Finding USA wines with SC!

Chuck said...Yanks generally still don't like Stelvin despite it being IMO the greatest advancement in wine for a long time

[Polymer]

Sorry bob, that isn't what he said..

"Yanks generally still don't like Stelvin" is 100% true. They generally do not like Stelvin/Screwpcap. That is NOT the same thing as saying you can not find wine in the US with a screwcap...I know you can...I have a cellar in the US that says you can...

[KMP]

You can certainly find wines with screwcaps in the USA. Most are from Oz or NZ, although I did find my first Italian with a screwcap a couple of weeks ago; try looking for screwcapped wines in Rome! Some US winemakers like Carlisle have offered buyers the same wine in cork and screwcap while producers like Loring sell only under screwcap. Bonny Doon wines are also under screwcap. Wine.com will give a list of wines they sell under screwcap. Plus there is evidence that screwcap wine sales have been on the increase in the US for a few years now. So I doubt that there is an overwhelming perception that screwcaps are bad in the US. There was a preception that they are associated with cheap wine, just like its been everywhere else in the world including Oz. But those days are fast disappearing among those that actually know what a screwcap is.

In terms of Thorn-Clarke wines, they come screwcapped in the US.

Mike

[PaulG]

This area confuses me to no end. I've heard John Duval speak about how stelvin is the only way considering the ridiculous nature of cork failure, but then had Justin Macnamee (Samuel's Gorge) say that wine simply doesn't age properly under stelvin on the basis of his tasting of a number of wines over several years which had been sealed with both cork and stelvin.

Very, very confusing.

[KMP]

How wines age confuses me, and I'll bet quite a few who study it for a living. I doubt its all explained by the closure.

Mike

[Polymer]

You can certainly find wines with screwcaps in the USA. Most are from Oz or NZ, although I did find my first Italian with a screwcap a couple of weeks ago; try looking for screwcapped wines in Rome! Some US winemakers like Carlisle have offered buyers the same wine in cork and screwcap while producers like Loring sell only under screwcap. Bonny Doon wines are also under screwcap. Wine.com will give a list of wines they sell under screwcap. Plus there is evidence that screwcap wine sales have been on the increase in the US for a few years now. So I doubt that there is an overwhelming perception that screwcaps are bad in the US. There was a preception that they are associated with cheap wine, just like its been everywhere else in the world including Oz. But those days are fast disappearing among those that actually know what a screwcap is.

In terms of Thorn-Clarke wines, they come screwcapped in the US.

Mike

There is an overwhelming perception in the that screwcaps are for cheap wine. The US market is still very uneducated when it comes to that. You can find screwcaps but they're almost all Australian and NZ wines as you said. You also have Chile, Argentina, maybe a few European whites...There is a reason you'll find very few winemakers in the US using screwcap. It isn't they don't know any better it is that their market (For over $30 wine) doesn't want screwcap.

You might doubt this but you'd be mistaken. There is a reason why some makers export to the US and China with cork versions...You can go to any US wine board, you can ask Americans yourself..go to any wine store in the US and ask what their buyers want.....It is unfortunate and it is CHANGING but it is still the perception in the US that screwcaps are for cheap wine. (Trust me, when I'm there I'm constantly having to tell people how good it is).

Again, this is changing but it is not happening as fast as you might think...

[KMP]

Having lived in California for almost 30 years now I’ve experienced and seen a few changes in the wine scene. But let’s see what the industry says about screwcaps. A recent survey by Tragon Corp (reported in Wine Business Monthly in Feb 2012) does argue that the appeal of screwcaps may have peaked in 2007 in the US. But the numbers show that around 70-80+% of survey participants would have a screwcapped wine at home, or with dinner with family, or everyday; slightly down from the 80-90+% for 2007 but up from less than 60% in 2001. Where the numbers fall are for wines for a special occasion (20%), for gift giving (20%), or at a dinner party (30+%). Its true that given a choice of closure the vast majority (93%) would definitely/probably choose cork over screwcap (45%). But only 21% probably/definitely would not choose screwcap.

Wines and Vines in August 2011 argued that screwcaps have turned a corner in the USA and they noted that while there are no reliable statistics for the EXACT percentage of screwcapped wines sold in the US, glass sales for bottles that fit Stelvin were up 10% over the last year. In the same issue it was announced that Hogue Cellars (owned by Constellation) had completed bottling studies done over 2005-2010 and would now screwcap all 570,000 cases of its wine. Of the 50+ closure suppliers listed in the issue 36 supplied natural cork, 31 screwcap, 27 synthetic cork and 31 technical closures. There were 2 natural cork only suppliers and 7 that supplied screwcaps only.

Mike

[Polymer]

Your survey doesn't change the perception that screwcap = Cheap. Cork = quality. In fact it only strengthens what I've just said...

Look at what you wrote...They have no problem with having it at home (cheap wine) but when it is for a gift or dinner party, they're far less likely. Why is that do you think?

The number of wines with screwcap are increasing (which I think is good) but they're doing so on all the lower end wine. How many Harlan, Screaming Eagle, etc are you seeing under screwcap? I see none..yet...

You're in Cali right? Easy way to check..Go to KL or Wine Exchange...Look at the 30+ dollar wines...how many screwcaps are you seeing? Ask them what the perception is by their customers...

[KMP]

Geez Polymer, you really do have bee under your bonnet. I would have though that an 80% acceptance rate was pretty good for screwcaps. OTOH, you seem to be impying that all wines in the US should be under screwcap, only then will you believe that the US market has accepted them. Here is a question for you. Name a wine market where all the wines are under screwcap? Here is another one. Next time you are in the US visit any supermarket like Vonns or even Trader Joe's; places where the wines are cheap. How many screwcap wines can you find? Now find a specialist wine shop and see how many screwcap wines there are? The reason for the difference? Those who know what a screwcap is are much more accepting. The story is the same all over the world. The US is no different than many other markets.

Mike

[Polymer]

80% acceptance means they'll buy the cheap wine for themselves...You're reading into the numbers how you want to but ignoring the others which is why your analysis is flawed.

Since you didn't bother answering the question..The reason only 20-30% of the people surveyed will buy a screwcap wine for a dinner party or as a gift is purely because the perception is that screwcaps are on cheaper wines and who wants to be perceived as having given a cheap gift (even if it wasn't cheap) or brought a cheap wine (even if it wasn't) to a dinner party? The answer is most people...

It doesn't require that all of the wine be under screwcap for it to be accepted. Did I even remotely suggest that? Not at all...

I will repeat this though since you don't seem to be getting it..

Most Americans perceive screwcaps as something that is only on cheap wine. Some of their daily favorites might be under screwcap.
For more expensive wines or wines they'll be giving as a gift, they're less likely to want to get screwcap because it is perceived as being cheap. If it wasn't, why would they be less likely to buy one for a gift than for themselves? This is NOT the same thing as saying Americans won't buy screwcaps, it is gaining more and more acceptance but definitely, Americans still have a love of cork..they prefer it if given a choice (which is what your survey has shown). Or putting it another way, if you had two bottles of wine, same price, they know nothing about either wine other than it is say, Cabernet Sauvignon...One is cork, one is screwcap...They will be more likely to buy the one w/ cork because they perceive it to be of higher quality if it has a cork. It is also why a vast majority of the wineries in California use cork or something similar to cork. Even the SYNTHETIC cork gets used...which is a total joke of a closure and is only used because of the perception of screwcaps = cheap. Nevermind that synthetic cork is the ultimate in cheap.

[marsalla]

Could be just me Polymer, but maybe you should just lighten up a touch, plenty of opinions out there, just because they dont agree with you, doesn't mean they are wrong.

[KMP]

...You're reading into the numbers how you want to but ignoring the others which is why your analysis is flawed........

I'd say that's a two way street. Just my opinion, of course. No survey to back it up!

mike

[Polymer]

Wouldn't matter if you did...you couldn't interpret the numbers anyways...

[newworld]

End of thread.

[Chuck]

Wow. Great arguments here and a lot of good information. One last question for all. If you were offered the same wine under cork and stelvin that will need say 5+ years in the cellar which one would you buy? For me it's a no brainer.

And another. Is air ingress via a cork part of the aging process?

[daz]

Wow. Great arguments here and a lot of good information. One last question for all. If you were offered the same wine under cork and stelvin that will need say 5+ years in the cellar which one would you buy? For me it's a no brainer.

And another. Is air ingress via a cork part of the aging process?

No, oxidisation is not a friend of wine. Wines with anaerobic cork seals are those that age better than those that supposedly allow air ingress.

[Polymer]

I think it has been shown that corks allow some air in....the best corks allow just a little bit in. Screwcaps still allow a little bit in.

I don't think it is possible for corks to create an anaerobic closure....

As far as how a wine ages...I don't think anyone knows for sure..it could be a completely anaerobic environment is best but there are centuries of experience that does not have that and the wines have aged successfully...

[Chuck]

I've heard that as wines heat up ever so slightly the cork is pushed up slightly sucking air in and out when it cools and the cork retreats back into the neck. Don't know if this is true. Can anyone elaberate on this or is it just an urban myth.

[KMP]

Wow. Great arguments here and a lot of good information. One last question for all. If you were offered the same wine under cork and stelvin that will need say 5+ years in the cellar which one would you buy? For me it's a no brainer.

And another. Is air ingress via a cork part of the aging process?

The comparison is not as simple as cork v screwcap. Much depends on how much oxygen gets into the wine before it even gets a closure. It might help to read this.

Mike

[Polymer]

That article doesn't say that...it just says the amount of oxygen that is in the bottle when it is bottled will impact certain things but we don't know how the wine will age....We don't know if there is a certain critical mass of oxygen that is needed to age properly (at least for reds) and prevent reduction.

I'm pretty convinced screwcaps age wine perfectly fine...Everything seems to suggest that...at the same time, there is a reason something like Lafite or DRC is still done under cork. It isn't because of tradition and it has nothing to do w/ what Americans perceive...They aren't sure what will happen to the wine. They're doing their own tests and have said so many times...but the fact is, what they use today has worked for hundreds of years..so for them to move to something like screwcap, they must be very certain it will be, in every way, better than cork...as in, lower/no tca issues, lower failures, lower premox issues, and it can age and age properly for 50, 100 years...

[KMP]

Polyer, take a Valum or something.

For everyone else "The take-home message seems to be that there is an urgent need for the wine industry to come to grips with oxygen pick-up at bottling--and then oxygen transmission by closures--because these important variables have a large effect on wine development and shelf-life." Jamie Goode (from the link in my previous post.)

Mike

PS And something else for those who like to read. And the French perspective; the word tradition is used several time but discard that because we've been told that is not important.

[Polymer]

It IS an important variable..but we don't know if it should be more or less oxygen....Whites it seems a bit clearer, more oxygen at the start if you want it to have oxidized a bit more, less if you don't. What exactly is the best way, we don't know..but we do know Whites seems to age perfectly fine under screwcap..and most cork lovers that know enough about wine agree, it is fine for whites...For reds, we don't know the research has no conclusion either. They know it does contribute to something in the wine but they don't know if it is good or bad to have more oxygen (at least between the levels they're talking when bottling..obviously too much is bad).

Here are two articles about corks vs. screwcaps from Chateau Margaux...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... rgaux+cork
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/tastingsfo ... 012a.shtml

No mention of keeping it out of tradition..in fact saying they'd switch to something they are very certain is better but obviously, for what they want, they won't be doing it anytime soon.
But to bring it back to why Yanks associate quality with corks..that article you put up is a perfect example and great marketing by the cork industry...They do mention tradition (as one in a list of things..and only twice) but definitely not in the same tone as the other qualities which are, they use cork because it has proven itself for hundreds and hundreds of years..They know it works, they know the wine ages...So why would they switch to something unknown? (apparently for costs..since they keep mentioning how much it costs to use cork).

The articles I've seen, most of the big producers have said...if they find something better, that limits the issues they have, and still retains the aging qualities of cork for the length of time they're used to, they'd use it. Right now, in their mind, there is nothing better than cork. There are some downsides but they live with it, as they have for hundreds and hundreds of years, because they know that in the long run, it works...I wouldn't be switching either if I were them..but I'd certainly be looking.

[Thommo]

The importance of Oxygen picked up at bottling was shown very clearly to me at a visit to Tyrrell's last year. The top tier semillions, they had available for tasting were a cellar release '99 Vat 1, a current release 2007(?) HVD Sem, a current release 2005(?)Vat 1 and a late bottling trial 99 HVD. Now the late bottling trial HVD had been bottled in 2010 (i think) but had spent the intervening 10-11 years between vintage and bottling sitting in a large, airtight, stainless steel tank.

My memories of the tasting are a little hazy, as my wife was driving that day, and Tyrrells are extraordinarily generous at their CD tastings with both the quality and quantity of wine they pour. However, the takeaway message was that the 99 trial bottling HVD tasted fresh as a daisy - no toast and honey, plenty of bright waxy lemon sherbet. I can't recall if it tasted more or less developed than the current release HVD (which admittedly had probably been in the bottle longer), but I think it is pretty clear from that experiment that if a white has the capacity to age, it is the oxygen that is incorporated into the wine at botling that does the bulk of the work in changing the flavour profile.

Did anyone else have the good fortune to get onto Tyrrells late bottling trial?