1999 Penfolds Grange. Where? $$$?

dazzamatazza · Post by **dazzamatazza** » Mon May 03, 2004 8:52 am

I just heard that the 1999 Grange has just been released, where do you think I can get my hands on a bottle or two and how much should I be paying for it? Any ideas?

Wizz · Post by **Wizz** » Mon May 03, 2004 9:04 am

Ring around - the chain stores should have it. See the post below on new releases, someone quotes $375 to $469 as a range.

AB

Guest - Barry · Post by **Guest - Barry** » Mon May 03, 2004 9:36 am

Word from my local retailer is that queries are down 75% on this time last year (the 98 release) and sales down 60%.

I reckon auction is the way to go on this one.

GrahamB · Post by **GrahamB** » Mon May 03, 2004 9:51 am

You may need to be quick initially. When we tasted this on Saturday, our retailer had all of their premium release stock at the tasting table and there was not there.

Some varieties had completely sold out.

Graham

dazzamatazza · Post by **dazzamatazza** » Mon May 03, 2004 12:49 pm

Thanks for that guys, but I have a few more questions since I am new to wine-for-investment area and I have heard the true performer is Penfolds Grange without a doubt. But now I am confused if I should get some 98 with it's high Parker Rating (99/100) or get some of the 1999 which has only been barrel sampled by parker @ 94-96? I don't have a lot of cash to splash around but am getting mixed stories.

I heard that the 1999 Grange was rated 100/100 by the Master of Wine at Langtons and that because there was less produced it would be worth more in the future. But in a article last weeks AFR on 1999 Grange it quotes "Stewart Langton, the managing director of Langton's Fine Wine Auctions, said the reputation for quality from the 1999 grape harvest overall in Australia was not as good as the 1998 vintage. A 1998 Grange fetches about $550 a bottle at auction."

You see both how I am getting a bit confused since one is stating 100/100 then the other is saying the vintage is not that great. Do you reckon the 1998 is a better vintage for investment or risk it on the 1999 who hasn't officially been rated beyond the barrel sampling?

Any suggestions?

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon May 03, 2004 12:55 pm

dazzamatazza wrote:Thanks for that guys, but I have a few more questions since I am new to wine-for-investment area and I have heard the true performer is Penfolds Grange without a doubt. But now I am confused if I should get some 98 with it's high Parker Rating (99/100) or get some of the 1999 which has only been barrel sampled by parker @ 94-96? I don't have a lot of cash to splash around but am getting mixed stories.

I heard that the 1999 Grange was rated 100/100 by the Master of Wine at Langtons and that because there was less produced it would be worth more in the future. But in a article last weeks AFR on 1999 Grange it quotes "Stewart Langton, the managing director of Langton's Fine Wine Auctions, said the reputation for quality from the 1999 grape harvest overall in Australia was not as good as the 1998 vintage. A 1998 Grange fetches about $550 a bottle at auction."

You see both how I am getting a bit confused since one is stating 100/100 then the other is saying the vintage is not that great. Do you reckon the 1998 is a better vintage for investment or risk it on the 1999 who hasn't officially been rated beyond the barrel sampling?

Any suggestions?

In MY opinion, dont buy the 99' for investment purposes, by the time you factor in auction margins etc, unless you get a VERY good price (think under $250), you will not be able to make any money in the short-medium term.

IF YOU MUST, for investment purposes, get on the mailing lists and target the cults.

GraemeG · Post by **GraemeG** » Mon May 03, 2004 3:06 pm

dazzamatazza wrote:You see both how I am getting a bit confused since one is stating 100/100 then the other is saying the vintage is not that great. Do you reckon the 1998 is a better vintage for investment or risk it on the 1999 who hasn't officially been rated beyond the barrel sampling?

Any suggestions?

Don't be confused between how good the wine is, and whether it's a good investment or not. Serious investment (the financial kind) is best left to those with deep pockets, and access to large quantities of Chateau Latour. Grange is made in relatively small quantities, and difficult to find in large chunks, unless you want to track around one auction house after another, buying little bits everywhere. Hardly a sure-fire strategy.

Most people who've made money from investing in Australian wine (I mean actually buying not merely taking a cut as a broker somewhere) have simply been lucky; they bought a case a year of some wine that's since been 'discovered' by Parker, and fools have lined up to shell out $800 a bottle for something that cost them $20 each.

That's just luck, nothing else. You're going to buy a lot of funnily-named wine in an attempt to second-guess Parker's next find - and if you do manage to pick it, it'll probably only just pay for all the other stuff you bought along the way. It might be fun as a wine-lover to do this (?), but it ain't investment, at least not in the true sense of the word...

cheers,
Graeme

MartinC · Post by **MartinC** » Mon May 03, 2004 3:30 pm

By investing in a $400+ Grange '99 is the easiest way to lose money.
Don't listen to Andrew Caillard, he is in the business of selling to generate "brokerage" for Langton. Very soon u will see plenty of '99 flooded in his auctions.

Gary W · Post by **Gary W** » Mon May 03, 2004 4:17 pm

MartinC wrote:Don't listen to Andrew Caillard, he is in the business of selling to generate "brokerage" for Langton. Very soon u will see plenty of '99 flooded in his auctions.

Martin,
This is a complete load of crap. He is an excellent taster. If he says it is a good wine he says it for no other reason that it is a good wine.
GW

Craig(NZ). · Post by **Craig(NZ).** » Mon May 03, 2004 5:52 pm

$350 at the supermarket in NZ. $1150 for the magnum. Yawn. For god sake its only a drink - wont catch me queing for it!!

Kieran · Post by **Kieran** » Mon May 03, 2004 6:03 pm

99 Grange might be a fair investment, especially it it's as good as some writers suggest. But it won't be hard to get, so don't panic and pay retail rates - at least not yet.

If you're after a good Grange and don't mind paying $300+, probably seek out the 94, 96 and 99, either on special or at auction. The 98 is a good wine too, but the price tag is half hype.

If you're just after a really good bottle of wine, there's other stuff around. Mt Mary Quintet, Cullen Cab Merlot, Giaconda Chardonnay etc (I could do a really long list, but I won't). It's expensive, but for the cost of a $450 Grange you might be able to get a half-dozen Cullens.

Kieran

Timmy · Post by **Timmy** » Tue May 04, 2004 5:01 pm

Well somebody bought into the Southmont marketing machine and just bid a 1999 Grange up to $499 ! Jeesh !

Timmy · Post by **Timmy** » Tue May 04, 2004 5:02 pm

Timmy wrote:Well somebody bought into the Southmont marketing machine and just bid a 1999 Grange up to $499 ! Jeesh !

Oh, should have mentioned it was on EBay.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:04 pm

Gary W wrote:
MartinC wrote:Don't listen to Andrew Caillard, he is in the business of selling to generate "brokerage" for Langton. Very soon u will see plenty of '99 flooded in his auctions.

Martin,
This is a complete load of crap. He is an excellent taster. If he says it is a good wine he says it for no other reason that it is a good wine.
GW

Gary,

well said, this is complete unredeemable garbage.

Lincoln · Post by **Lincoln** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:43 pm

Adam wrote:In MY opinion, dont buy the 99' for investment purposes, by the time you factor in auction margins etc, unless you get a VERY good price (think under $250), you will not be able to make any money in the short-medium term.

Landed price + WET is about $280 I believe, so unless someone is selling at a big loss I cannot see it under $300 at auction.

IF YOU MUST, for investment purposes, get on the mailing lists and target the cults.

Pretty much true, but it is also worthwhile picking "great" vintages and "ordinary" wines that are underpriced.

Lincoln · Post by **Lincoln** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:45 pm

MartinC wrote:By investing in a $400+ Grange '99 is the easiest way to lose money.

agreed

Don't listen to Andrew Caillard, he is in the business of selling to generate "brokerage" for Langton. Very soon u will see plenty of '99 flooded in his auctions.

disagree - he has a reputation to think of and in his assessments I think you should put this auction house interests to some degree in the background.....

GraemeG · Post by **GraemeG** » Wed May 05, 2004 8:19 am

MartinC wrote:By investing in a $400+ Grange '99 is the easiest way to lose money.
Don't listen to Andrew Caillard, he is in the business of selling to generate "brokerage" for Langton. Very soon u will see plenty of '99 flooded in his auctions.

In fact, the ready availability of 99 Grange suggests it's not going to show up at auction in any great numbers for quite a while - the only reason so much 98 hit the market so quickly was due to the perception that there was a killing to be made.

Caillard has nothing to prove - and his integrity has never been called into question as far as I'm aware.

cheers,
Graeme

dazzamatazza · Post by **dazzamatazza** » Wed May 05, 2004 10:15 am

Well I reckon I the price will be going up very soon since all the stores in Sydney seem to sold out. I was just lucky I managed to get a few bottles on Moday from Coogee Bay Hotel for the unbelievable price of $350 per bottle!!! But these were his last bottles since they had a massive sale over the weekend. Called around town but everyone was selling around $450, Theos said 99% of thiers was sold and ebay auctions for $499. I only expect a price hike since there was 60% less made than the 1998 vintage and most of it has been sold already! Show me the money!

markg · Post by **markg** » Wed May 05, 2004 10:42 am

dazzamatazza wrote:Well I reckon I the price will be going up very soon since all the stores in Sydney seem to sold out. I was just lucky I managed to get a few bottles on Moday from Coogee Bay Hotel for the unbelievable price of $350 per bottle!!! But these were his last bottles since they had a massive sale over the weekend. Called around town but everyone was selling around $450, Theos said 99% of thiers was sold and ebay auctions for $499. I only expect a price hike since there was 60% less made than the 1998 vintage and most of it has been sold already! Show me the money!

I would be very wary of trying to make a quick buck out of this. There has to be fairly solid market of buyers for the price to increase at those rates in such a short amount of time. There is not enough solid evidence to support the theory that those prices may be attained.

There is, however, alot of publicity about how the wine will increase in value on the secondary market and this may fuel the more speculative buyers, putting pressure on the currently available retail stocks.

But when those speculators try to offload those wines at inflated prices over the next few months the real value of the wine will shake out and those who try to make a quick buck may get a nasty shock. If you get in and out fast you may make a few dollars out of other speculators but I think the majority of "end users" will wait and see.

Muscat Mike · Post by **Muscat Mike** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:44 pm

I only expect a price hike since there was 60% less made than the 1998 vintage and most of it has been sold already! Show me the money![/quote]

At the tasting last night we were told that the production for 99 was about the same as for 98.
MM.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu May 06, 2004 12:30 pm

MartinC wrote:By investing in a $400+ Grange '99 is the easiest way to lose money.
Don't listen to Andrew Caillard, he is in the business of selling to generate "brokerage" for Langton. Very soon u will see plenty of '99 flooded in his auctions.

Thats rubbish .....the 99 is miles better than the 98.....fantastic structure and depth of fruit.....I've tried it twice so far and it is far superior...less of it..the market dictates the price...Andrew has a great palate.....just try it yourself

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu May 06, 2004 1:20 pm

Anonymous wrote:the 99 is miles better than the 98.....fantastic structure and depth of fruit

This maybe true if you are comparing them now. 99 is a lighter style in grange's term. 98 is very packed and not showing much. 99 is drinking well now, but in the long term with the structure of the 98 it will last longer, but once again it is a very subjective matter.

Gary W · Post by **Gary W** » Thu May 06, 2004 1:24 pm

Rob wrote:
Anonymous wrote:the 99 is miles better than the 98.....fantastic structure and depth of fruit

This maybe true if you are comparing them now. 99 is a lighter style in grange's term. 98 is very packed and not showing much. 99 is drinking well now, but in the long term with the structure of the 98 it will last longer, but once again it is a very subjective matter.

Very subjective indeed and I would say you have it exactly the wrong way round judging by my own palate.
GW

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu May 06, 2004 5:30 pm

well we have finally got our allocations in Singapore and
are currently retailing at S$ 425 each i.e. approx A$ 340

Might be worth your while to fly here and buy a 6-pack !!

mukesh shah
bordelais fine wines
singapore
eMail : mukeshah@singnet.com.sg
mobile : (65) 9003 1991

London Correspondent · Tue May 11, 2004 5:33 am

Gary, I have to agree with you. I got two dozen '98s at London prices :lol:

and, much to my shame, haven't got around to sending them back to Melbourne for long-term storage. Naturally, I've been cracking into them, with 4 gone from a 6-pack already (the other 18 will make it back)......but two more to drink soon.

Also tried the '99 at a release gig.

For my money, the '98 is one of the very finest wines I've tasted in a very long time. I regularly manage to put First Growth Bordeaux on expenses and very very few of them come close to the '98 Grange (Latour is pretty close for my money, esp the '96).

I'll be slowly accumulating this little dittie for the next decade or so.

Cheers,
JM

MartinC · Post by **MartinC** » Tue May 11, 2004 7:06 pm

Why pay $400+ for a 1999 when u can buy;

1994 @ $220* (the closest in characteristic to the '98Grange)
1996 @ $270*

fr Wickman's auction.

*b4 buyer's premium.