Damaged Stelvins

[The more the better]

Does anyone have any experience with banged up stelvin enclosures?

How do you know if the enclosure is damaged to the point of potentialy impacting on the wines ageing properties.

I purchased some Seppelt St.Peters 2004 recently for $35 but their stelvin enclosures were dented around the top and sides. at that price I took a punt. No leaks or anything but I am wondering whether I should let them rest as I would normally.

[daz]

If the wine has already been damaged i.e. oxidised, there's no point worrying now. I suspect the contents are fine given that there's no apparent leakage but for some self-comfort, suggest you give each bottle's cap a good twist in the clockwise direction to make sure the sealing pad is doing it's job.

And don't anybody bother to come back at me about the ingress of air supposedly allowed by the screwcap seal being denied by ensuring the seal is tight. That's bullshit! The best seals (including corks!) are those that prevent the ingress of air completely, it's the dissolved oxygen in the wine itself and that in the headspace, as well as apppropriate cellaring conditions, that contribute to proper ageing of wine.

Nice price!

Cheers

daz

[Wizz]

Hi,

If a stelvinhas been knocked about like you describe then that increases the chance of eakage or at least higher air ingress, with all the usual effects that has. This doesnt automatically mean the wine will leak though. I've has this happen regularly, although I havent seen any serious effcts yet.

There are scientific trials abut air ingress rates with all sorts of seals, and screwcap seals do allow ingress. I think these were run by the AWRI but cant be sure.

I wouldnt do anything different with the wines. But watch for leakage.

Cheers

Andrew

[KMP]

If the wine has already been damaged i.e. oxidised, there's no point worrying now. I suspect the contents are fine given that there's no apparent leakage but for some self-comfort, suggest you give each bottle's cap a good twist in the clockwise direction to make sure the sealing pad is doing it's job.

daz

After watching Ken Helm I now open screw cap bottles by grasping the bottom of the cap (the sleeve on the bottle neck) and turning the bottle clockwise (I'm still working on brushing the top of the bottle along my forearm to wind off the cap ). However I admit I have never thought about it, but would a well sealed screwcap turn if given "a good twist in the clockwise direction"?

Mike

[Polymer]

Are you sure about that? Everything I've seen suggests that the best corks and screwcaps allow slight ingress of air....

Although I don't think there's agreement on what really contributes to the aging...the studies I've seen show it's not airtight...

[Red Bigot]

Does anyone have any experience with banged up stelvin enclosures?

How do you know if the enclosure is damaged to the point of potentialy impacting on the wines ageing properties.

I purchased some Seppelt St.Peters 2004 recently for $35 but their stelvin enclosures were dented around the top and sides. at that price I took a punt. No leaks or anything but I am wondering whether I should let them rest as I would normally.

A significant number of Seppelt stelvin caps show minor dings and dents, it seems/seemed to be endemic in their bottling / handling procedures for 2004-2006 vintages, haven't seen any more recent, haven't bought any. I've not seen any wines affected by the minor damage, it's all been cosmetic only on the bottles I've seen.

[Broughy]

would need to heavily banged up to do damage to the wine i.e. a significant dent/crease. I have had some that look very ordinary but have maintained the seal. Only problem I have had is with those caps that were not put on properly in the bottling process i.e. rollers weren't tight enough

[griff]

There is an element of concern. I have tried two wines so far that have oxidised as a result of a dent. One at a tasting and one at home. Both dents were decent sized on the corner of the screwcap. Having said that I have tasted wine from well over a thousand screwcapped wines so the rate is pretty low. I have also seen a few dents as well but only the two that progressed to well defined oxidation.

cheers

Carl

[n4sir]

The real scary thing is that for the majority of cases you will never really know until you open the wine - it's by far the biggest concern I have with screwcap as a long-term seal.

For the last few year's (going by my yearly tallies) over half the number of bottles I've tried have been under screwcaps - I've tried many with various dents in the top and side with no ill-affect, but I'm very wary of anything that has had dents, particularly an impact in the top corner.

Probably the biggest eye opener was the seal failure of the Taylors at this Riesling tasting a couple of years back - other bottles had a variety of dents in the top & side (some which looked a lot more serious) but this only had one small nick right in the top corner. Apart from that it looked fine - the perforations were intact, it had been stored on its side and there was absolutely no seepage, in fact when it was opened it was pretty clear the fill level virtually hadn't budged:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8842&p=65414

Compare that to some bottles which have been absolutely fine despite the perforations being fused and where the whole sheath had snapped off the bottle, requiring scissors/snips to get them off. Quite simply there's little chance of telling the difference, and that's not even taking into account the wines retail/storage history...

At the moment I'm in the process of "cooking" a couple of bottles of cleanskin reds under screwcap compared to two control bottles in a more sensible environment - the abused bottles are in the kitchen at the roof line, located near the back of the refrigerator & an A/C duct, and getting afternoon sun to boot. This was prompted after seeing a bottle of Riesling in a shop where the level had dropped about 7cm in the space of about 5 years, and I wanted to see if I could replicate it. Anyway, after 4 years of abuse the scary thing is there's visually absolutely no sign of it - no seepage, the fill levels are still above the capsule line, and the colour of the bottle is (at the moment) hiding any signs of colour change in the wine. I reckon it's about time to open one and one of the controls soon to judge the results...


Cheers,
Ian

[rens]

The real scary thing is that for the majority of cases you will never really know until you open the wine - it's by far the biggest concern I have with screwcap as a long-term seal.

For the last few year's (going by my yearly tallies) over half the number of bottles I've tried have been under screwcaps - I've tried many with various dents in the top and side with no ill-affect, but I'm very wary of anything that has had dents, particularly an impact in the top corner.

Probably the biggest eye opener was the seal failure of the Taylors at this Riesling tasting a couple of years back - other bottles had a variety of dents in the top & side (some which looked a lot more serious) but this only had one small nick right in the top corner. Apart from that it looked fine - the perforations were intact, it had been stored on its side and there was absolutely no seepage, in fact when it was opened it was pretty clear the fill level virtually hadn't budged:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8842&p=65414

Compare that to some bottles which have been absolutely fine despite the perforations being fused and where the whole sheath had snapped off the bottle, requiring scissors/snips to get them off. Quite simply there's little chance of telling the difference, and that's not even taking into account the wines retail/storage history...

At the moment I'm in the process of "cooking" a couple of bottles of cleanskin reds under screwcap compared to two control bottles in a more sensible environment - the abused bottles are in the kitchen at the roof line, located near the back of the refrigerator & an A/C duct, and getting afternoon sun to boot. This was prompted after seeing a bottle of Riesling in a shop where the level had dropped about 7cm in the space of about 5 years, and I wanted to see if I could replicate it. Anyway, after 4 years of abuse the scary thing is there's visually absolutely no sign of it - no seepage, the fill levels are still above the capsule line, and the colour of the bottle is (at the moment) hiding any signs of colour change in the wine. I reckon it's about time to open one and one of the controls soon to judge the results...


Cheers,
Ian

I know we're going slightly off topic but...
I started a similar experiment with two clean skins. Prompted by my brother in law's insistance that the heat effected stuff he has sitting in his pantry for the last 6 years is the best stuff he has ever had. My first bottle is sitting in the wine fridge at 16 C and the other is sitting in the Garage of the house. Being in Brisbane the temperature fluctuates in there between about 10 C in winter and 40 C+ in summer. I've only had them there for 3 months. Both under screw cap. No difference of note other than the two or three daddy long legs that now live around the garaged bottle.
In short I'd be really like to read the tasting notes you get from those bottles.

[RogerPike]

In my experience screw caps are quite resilient.

Being a clumsy oaf I sometimes ding the top of a bottle with the bottom of another bottle when I am making up mixed cases. If it is just a tiny mark or ding I let it go but sometimes it is a heavy knock and if I consider there is any chance of the seal being compromised I pull the bottle out and it goes for tasting stock. I probably get through about twenty damaged screwcap bottles per year because of that and I have yet to find a bottle where the screwcap seal has not done its job.

Roger

[n4sir]

In my experience screw caps are quite resilient.

Being a clumsy oaf I sometimes ding the top of a bottle with the bottom of another bottle when I am making up mixed cases. If it is just a tiny mark or ding I let it go but sometimes it is a heavy knock and if I consider there is any chance of the seal being compromised I pull the bottle out and it goes for tasting stock. I probably get through about twenty damaged screwcap bottles per year because of that and I have yet to find a bottle where the screwcap seal has not done its job.

Roger

Out of curiosity Roger, what would the average period of time be between when you ding the screwcap and open it as tasting stock?

I'd say there's a good chance the bottles the original poster was asking about have been knocked around anywhere up to four years ago, which could (possibly) be a point of difference if you've got to your dinged bottles before the year's out.

In any case, I would say the best thing for them to do is to open one ASAP as a guide and judge it themselves - it would probably be a more conclusive answer to their question than anything we come up with here.

Cheers,
Ian

[RogerPike]

No idea what the average time period would be Ian, they would be opened at anywhere between a week and a year after being damaged.

I am not sure that opening one would be much indication of the others. I guess if the original poster took a punt on buying them he is probably enough of a punter to cellar them.

Roger

[The more the better]

Thanks everyone for your comments on this issue. I thought I would post a photo as there seems to be a lack of clarity as to what is actually damaged versus just knocked about.[attachment=0]DSC01169 copy.jpg[/attachment]

[n4sir]

Thanks everyone for your comments on this issue. I thought I would post a photo as there seems to be a lack of clarity as to what is actually damaged versus just knocked about.

DSC01169 copy.jpg

The dent that finished the Taylors riesling I referred to above would have been pretty similar to the smaller dent to the right of the picture - not particularly wide but deep and right around the area where the liner contacts the lip of the bottle.

As I mentioned earlier, I think the best thing you can do is open a bottle and judge the condition for yourself. Personally I avoid bottles with the type of dents shown in the picture (which look pretty bad, and may well be the reason they were priced at what they were), but I am fussy. If I buy wines under screwcap to cellar any decent length of time I try to pick out bottles with no dents (especially in the top corner) and immediately cover them with a sheath made up of bubble wrap and sticky tape - call me obsessive, but it seems to do a pretty good job of protecting them from knocks.

Cheers,
Ian

[RogerPike]

I would never buy or sell a bottle in that condition.

Roger

[griff]

I certainly would keep the receipt for that bottle!

cheers

Carl

[Red Bigot]

That's a lot worse then the examples I've seen on Seppelt stelvins.

Be careful where you store your bottles:
http://australianwinecompanion.blogspot ... um=twitter

[Wayno]

If I buy wines under screwcap to cellar any decent length of time I try to pick out bottles with no dents (especially in the top corner) and immediately cover them with a sheath made up of bubble wrap and sticky tape - call me obsessive, but it seems to do a pretty good job of protecting them from knocks.

Hmmm, it's definitely on the 'playing it safe side'...
'

[The more the better]

[quote="RogerPike"]I would never buy or sell a bottle in that condition.

Roger[/quote]

I picked up these couple of bottles at one of the two major chains in a discount bin (half barrel) that contained a bunch of wines including some quality NZ pinot. Apparently they got wet when the stores roof leaked during some heavy rains. I have tried one of the bottles and it was sensational so I will probably put the other one down for a year or two and see what happens. Either way it will be a good test to see what happens. If anything, I will learn about the stelvins ability to handle serious knocks such as these over a prolonged period.