High Alcohol is a Wine Fault... Not a Badge of Honor

[Adair]

High Alcohol is a Wine Fault... Not a Badge of Honor
by Matthew Citriglia

I am not meaning to start a Rutherglen-directed discussion again, as I personally believe this article is not relevant to our great warmer wine regions such as Barossa, Rutherglen and McLaren Vale (at least for most producers in these regions), but this article is in context of my number one varietal love, Pinot Noir. I found reading the article so easy to read that I needed to share it. It gives a quick and probably basic insight to the topic of "technology and wine" as well as of course a subjective opinion, one in line with my own though.

http://www.winegeeks.com/articles/85

Kind regards,
Adair

[orpheus]

It is certainly true that some high alcohol Pinots are unenjoyable, and sometimes the high alcohol is part of the problem.

However, this is too dogmatic an opinion for me. I have had great pinot which is 14-14.5 per cent, and rubbish pinot which is 13%.

The correlation is not so straight-forward.

[KMP]

The correlation is certainly not straight forward, but..............

Some Pinot Noir wines in the USA simply do not smell or taste of the grape from which they are made. Like the article Siduri is one maker that comes instantly to my mind. An example was a 2007 Siduri Pinot Noir from the Santa Rita Hills region of California. Santa Rita Hills is a cool-climate viticultural region within the Santa Ynez Valley, and is known for its Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. But this wine did not float my boat at all because it was rich, ripe and Zinfandel-like. Now Zinfandel is a very versatile grape but getting it confused with Pinot Noir is not something that should occur.

Unlike the writer of the article, I will say that these richly flavored Pinots can be very drinkable, especially if you are not looking for a Burgundy style wine. Some of them can be quite extraordinary because of the palette of flavors they present even though they sacrifice varietal character.

Mike

[orpheus]

The correlation is certainly not straight forward, but..............

Some Pinot Noir wines in the USA simply do not smell or taste of the grape from which they are made. Like the article Siduri is one maker that comes instantly to my mind. An example was a 2007 Siduri Pinot Noir from the Santa Rita Hills region of California. Santa Rita Hills is a cool-climate viticultural region within the Santa Ynez Valley, and is known for its Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. But this wine did not float my boat at all because it was rich, ripe and Zinfandel-like. Now Zinfandel is a very versatile grape but getting it confused with Pinot Noir is not something that should occur.

Unlike the writer of the article, I will say that these richly flavored Pinots can be very drinkable, especially if you are not looking for a Burgundy style wine. Some of them can be quite extraordinary because of the palette of flavors they present even though they sacrifice varietal character.

Mike

Nobody has a monopoly on flavour, and nobody can dictate what a "varietal" pinot should taste like. I have to agree that if it is indistinguishable from zinfadel, that is, nevertheless unfortunate. I have tasted Australian pinot which suffers from similar problems, and generally neither has an enticing bouquet, nor a varietal (allowing for much variation) palate.

Good pinot is always instantly recognisable as pinot (and some bad pinot is instantly recognisable as pinot too!).

However, my point is that while this particular sin might occur in high alcohol wines, that, nevertheless, some very good expressions of pinot noir have relatively high alcohol, and some very poor expressions of pinot have low alcohol.

An example of a relatively high alcohol pinot of excellent purity, depth, and substance is a good vintage of Ata Rangi Pinot, or Gibbston Valley reserve. (The 1999 GV reserve was stunning.)

[Michael McNally]

Sorry, I stopped listening to what he was saying when he described his treatment of the Sommelier. What a tool. If he didn't like the direction the wines were taking, why didn't he simply clarify what he was looking for. He could have said "These are okay, but can you bring me something a little lighter and with less alcohol content in the next bottle". Spitting it into his water glass? I am not really interested in his opinions on alcohol content v grape variety v phenolic ripeness v vineyard site, as he appears to be an arsehole lording his apparently superior appreciation of the subtelties of wine over someone who was not in a position to fight back.

[ufo]

Sorry, I stopped listening to what he was saying when he described his treatment of the Sommelier. What a tool. If he didn't like the direction the wines were taking, why didn't he simply clarify what he was looking for. He could have said "These are okay, but can you bring me something a little lighter and with less alcohol content in the next bottle". Spitting it into his water glass? I am not really interested in his opinions on alcohol content v grape variety v phenolic ripeness v vineyard site, as he appears to be an arsehole lording his apparently superior appreciation of the subtelties of wine over someone who was not in a position to fight back.

100 % agreed.

[fatdoi]

Sorry, I stopped listening to what he was saying when he described his treatment of the Sommelier. What a tool. If he didn't like the direction the wines were taking, why didn't he simply clarify what he was looking for. He could have said "These are okay, but can you bring me something a little lighter and with less alcohol content in the next bottle". Spitting it into his water glass? I am not really interested in his opinions on alcohol content v grape variety v phenolic ripeness v vineyard site, as he appears to be an arsehole lording his apparently superior appreciation of the subtelties of wine over someone who was not in a position to fight back.

too right.... the guy went along for the ride, didn't like it & spat in front of that poor chap's face... that's not expert opinion? more of a show off & wasting our time..... every person has his/her own palette & if you don't state what you're looking for..... don't get upset when things don't turn out to be your likings....

[orpheus]

Well, all of these criticisms of the linked writer may be fair enough, but I don't think that Adair was really interested in a character analysis of the linked writer, rather, I think he agreed with his view that high alcohol and good pinot noir are not compatible.

I, contrary to Adair, think the statement is too broad.

[Michael McNally]

Okay then. Perhaps I played the man not the ball. I still say he is a tool (no, not you Adair!) and he deserved a smack in the chops (or a dosage of spit in his Cristal) for his behaviour.

As to the substance of Citriglia's arguement there seem to be two main, related arguments (outrageously simplified):

1 Pinot Noir derivates from its "true identity" if it is used to produce fuller-bodied ("thick, heady and Zinfandel like"), high alcohol wines. This leads to the subsidiary argument that you can't plant any grape anywhere you want to, mate.
2 Technological manipulation such as reverse osmosis and micro-ox is okay for bulk production of wine for the uneducated masses, but not for the production of sophisticated, "proper" wine for people who know about it.

I find such sweeping generalisations as useful a turd in a bowl of punch.

Here's another unambiguous statement: "But now winemakers are picking by phenolics alone, ignoring sugar and acid levels." Hasn't he heard of qualifiers like 'some' or 'many'.

And finishes with the classic: "When you inform consumers about the deviant winemaking methods employed to manufacture these wines, they will reject the scores and begin to accept your guidance!" Please Matthew, guide me!

There, played the ball.

Cheers

Michael

[Craig(NZ)]

The biggest wine fault is a wine i don't like
simple

[ChrisV]

Sorry, I stopped listening to what he was saying when he described his treatment of the Sommelier. What a tool. If he didn't like the direction the wines were taking, why didn't he simply clarify what he was looking for. He could have said "These are okay, but can you bring me something a little lighter and with less alcohol content in the next bottle". Spitting it into his water glass? I am not really interested in his opinions on alcohol content v grape variety v phenolic ripeness v vineyard site, as he appears to be an arsehole lording his apparently superior appreciation of the subtelties of wine over someone who was not in a position to fight back.

Yeah I went and read a couple of other posts on his blog (www.winementor.com) and he is clearly a wanker. Every post is a complaint of some sort and while some of the things he's complaining about are pretty bad, it all has a supercilious tone to it and features him behaving like a passive-aggressive dickhead.

[ChrisV]

By the way, to achieve these big, rich pinots, some winemakers simply resort to tricks like throwing in 14.9% Syrah.

[Zinisking]

Also - Pinot asisde - Grange was always 10-11% and the year Max Schubert died it became 14%.... Interesting isn't it.... Also compare the Acid levels of the post Max Schubert age and you will see that Grange will not age the way it has before...... (Lower Acid levels of new wines) Just an interesting observation....

[KMP]

Also - Pinot asisde - Grange was always 10-11% and the year Max Schubert died it became 14%.... Interesting isn't it.... Also compare the Acid levels of the post Max Schubert age and you will see that Grange will not age the way it has before...... (Lower Acid levels of new wines) Just an interesting observation....

Actually Grange has only ever been between 10-11% once (see graph). Schubert kept it between 12-13% for much of his tenure and the level has crept up since.

A simple graphing of alcohol and pH reveals a significant negative correlation for Grange; that is the higher the alcohol the more acidity (lower pH), but a positive correlation for St Henri (alcohol and pH values both increase) - see graphs.

Mike

[Mike Hawkins]

high alcohol and good pinot noir are not compatible.

Some would say the words 'good' and 'pinor noir' are incompatible...

[monghead]

Also - Pinot asisde - Grange was always 10-11% and the year Max Schubert died it became 14%.... Interesting isn't it.... Also compare the Acid levels of the post Max Schubert age and you will see that Grange will not age the way it has before...... (Lower Acid levels of new wines) Just an interesting observation....

Actually Grange has only ever been between 10-11% once (see graph). Schubert kept it between 12-13% for much of his tenure and the level has crept up since.

A simple graphing of alcohol and pH reveals a significant negative correlation for Grange; that is the higher the alcohol the more acidity (lower pH), but a positive correlation for St Henri (alcohol and pH values both increase) - see graphs.

Mike

That is sensational work there Mike.

[monghead]

high alcohol and good pinot noir are not compatible.

Some would say the words 'good' and 'pinor noir' are incompatible...

I did notice long time ago your love for the heavier reds. However, all those Dom Oenos have a fair whack of pinot...

Cheers mate.

[KMP]

Also - Pinot asisde - Grange was always 10-11% and the year Max Schubert died it became 14%.... Interesting isn't it.... Also compare the Acid levels of the post Max Schubert age and you will see that Grange will not age the way it has before...... (Lower Acid levels of new wines) Just an interesting observation....

Actually Grange has only ever been between 10-11% once (see graph). Schubert kept it between 12-13% for much of his tenure and the level has crept up since.

A simple graphing of alcohol and pH reveals a significant negative correlation for Grange; that is the higher the alcohol the more acidity (lower pH), but a positive correlation for St Henri (alcohol and pH values both increase) - see graphs.

Mike

That is sensational work there Mike.

I’d welcome the accolade except for the fact that it seems I can’t even remember what I write. I just looked at the Grange graph again and it has never been between 10-11% but was between 11-12% once! Has any Aussie Shiraz ever been between 10-11%?

Mike

[KMP]

By the way, to achieve these big, rich pinots, some winemakers simply resort to tricks like throwing in 14.9% Syrah.

Pinot Noir and Shiraz/Syrah blends have a rich history in Australia esp. with Maurice O'shea, but has anyone in the US ever owned up to spiking their Pinot with Syrah/Shiraz? I know that winemaker Adam Lee of Siduri Wines claims his wines are 100% pinot.

Mike

[Mike Hawkins]

Good call Monghead !!!

[jafa]

True: high alcohol is a fault, not a badge of honour. Well, that's my opinion. And the fault is likely avoidable.

A simple graphing of alcohol and pH reveals a significant negative correlation for Grange; that is the higher the alcohol the more acidity (lower pH), but a positive correlation for St Henri (alcohol and pH values both increase) - see graphs. Mike

And I wonder how much the St Henri result is due to the winemaker. The acidity is manipulated to 'correct' level?
cheers jafa

[smithy]

What you are grizzling about Adair is lack of balance. I agree...out of balance is a wine fault.
Same as excessively Green/underipe wines..its a fault.
Is it the High Alc thats the issue?
Not as such, the problem is that Pinot Noir like Grenache or Zin etc is a medium weight wine which can lack tannin and structure. Hence the alcohol sticks out. Its not the alcohol thats the issue...its that in Pinot there isn't usually enough grunt to carry your 14.5 or 15% in many cases. ie its "underwined"...same as overoaking issues.
Big stuff can carry more.
And stay balanced. And the issue is always balance not "high' or "Low" alcs....
If you are seeing dragon breath where you blow flames across the room its out of balance....and OOB is a fault.
Simple.
Cheers
Smithy

[dazza1968]

The biggest wine fault is a wine i don't like
simple

so well said i have nothing to add really
regards dazza