This is from the same American web site that I mentioned last week.
I know Acidification and oak chips are used but how about rest of it?
"Further, on a production level, Australia permits alarming levels of manipulation in the cellar, i.e. artificial acidification, alcohol level manipulation, reverse osmosis machines to remove water to artificially concentrate wines, time-saving vinification machines called rotofermenters, extensive use of manmade, engineered yeasts, dumping hundred pound bags of oak chips into aging vats in lieu of actual barrel aging, and believe me, they use them!….does this sound appealing or authentic to you?
Also, Over 94% of Australian wine is made by 5 Giga corporations like Foster’s and Pernod Ricard that hold consumer focus groups to find out if it’s blackberry or mocha that is latest “new fave†wine flavor. They make wines in vats bigger than Olympic-sized pools with little to no respect for the place from which the grapes are grown, churning out absurd numbers of bottles like so many 2 liter bottles of Coca Cola.
With the beating that these wines take in the cellar and the baseline difficulties with the terroir from the start, is there any wonder that so many Aussie wines are completely devoid of any real personality? "
What do you think about these comments ?
DaveB wrote:The blokes a twat....the U.S.....as Nayan mentions uses all these processes and is allowed more additives than Australia + the use of GM yeasts
No doubt about the guy but how about some of the claims like:
" reverse osmosis machines to remove water to artificially concentrate wines"
Does anybody do this ?
ufo wrote:DaveB wrote:The blokes a twat....the U.S.....as Nayan mentions uses all these processes and is allowed more additives than Australia + the use of GM yeasts
No doubt about the guy but how about some of the claims like:
" reverse osmosis machines to remove water to artificially concentrate wines"
Does anybody do this ?
Yes there are....+ reduce alcohol, remove VA, remove brett, etc, etc.
Used by numerous wineries worldwide including top Bordeaux Chateau.
The whole thing is consumer driven.... they demand more bang for their buck and consistancy of product...they don't want to know about vintage variation, etc...they want a wine that is reliable year in year out. And of course if the wine produced aligns with certain mega-critics palates for high points that drive sales....all the better.
Well, he makes massive generalisations. I suspect his perception is held by a lot in America and the UK, and that is because a vast amount of large-scale production wine is sold into those markets.
What matters to me is not how the wine is made, but what it's like. I'm sure all of the methods he refers to are used in some Australian wines, and by many "NEw World" makers, and I don't care a bit if the result is an excellent wine with a sense of place or grape.
I don't agree with his idea that a winemaker has to eschew all of these techniques to make an "authentic" wine. Doesn't sound as though he has seen what actually goes on in your average winery!
However, we should probably take note of the perception held about Australian wines, rather than huffing and puffing about it.
What matters to me is not how the wine is made, but what it's like. I'm sure all of the methods he refers to are used in some Australian wines, and by many "NEw World" makers, and I don't care a bit if the result is an excellent wine with a sense of place or grape.
I don't agree with his idea that a winemaker has to eschew all of these techniques to make an "authentic" wine. Doesn't sound as though he has seen what actually goes on in your average winery!
However, we should probably take note of the perception held about Australian wines, rather than huffing and puffing about it.
There is a concerted push on from Europe & the US to paint Australian (and probably South African & South American) wines as "industrial".
That is we manufacture them as opposed to "crafting" them.
All absolute tosh. Most, if not all, the techniques used here are used in other countries.
All producers are allowed some level of chemical mainipulation to make drinkable wine. Europe has sugar addition for when they can't get enough alcohol naturally, we are allowed acid addition to make up for our generally warmer climes.
As to concentrating wines, yes, it can be done by reverse osmosis and is probably being used out there for that purpose. It has been used to remove water from juice from rain affected vintages, as well as to dial down the alcohol levels in monster wines.
Of course, the technology comes from the US, where its use is far more widespread than here.
That is we manufacture them as opposed to "crafting" them.
All absolute tosh. Most, if not all, the techniques used here are used in other countries.
All producers are allowed some level of chemical mainipulation to make drinkable wine. Europe has sugar addition for when they can't get enough alcohol naturally, we are allowed acid addition to make up for our generally warmer climes.
As to concentrating wines, yes, it can be done by reverse osmosis and is probably being used out there for that purpose. It has been used to remove water from juice from rain affected vintages, as well as to dial down the alcohol levels in monster wines.
Of course, the technology comes from the US, where its use is far more widespread than here.
Actually the more I read of this twat's writings, the angrier I get.
What the hell is Gallo's, if not one of these mega producers he bangs on about!
What about all the very large co-ops in France?
Once an industry is mature, especially capital intensive, high throughput ones, there are always a few dominant players who will hold the greatest chunk of market share - simple economics dictates this.
And as if trying to meet the market by producing to focus groups recommendations is a bad thing anyway - how dare untutored palates tell winemakers what they want to drink! The guy is just another wine snob.
To think that their output tells you about all other producers output is patent rubbish anyway. There are 2000 odd producers in Australia apart from the big guys, all trying to do their little thing differently.
What the hell is Gallo's, if not one of these mega producers he bangs on about!
What about all the very large co-ops in France?
Once an industry is mature, especially capital intensive, high throughput ones, there are always a few dominant players who will hold the greatest chunk of market share - simple economics dictates this.
And as if trying to meet the market by producing to focus groups recommendations is a bad thing anyway - how dare untutored palates tell winemakers what they want to drink! The guy is just another wine snob.
To think that their output tells you about all other producers output is patent rubbish anyway. There are 2000 odd producers in Australia apart from the big guys, all trying to do their little thing differently.
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Eurocentric
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ufo wrote:DaveB wrote:The blokes a twat....the U.S.....as Nayan mentions uses all these processes and is allowed more additives than Australia + the use of GM yeasts
No doubt about the guy but how about some of the claims like:
" reverse osmosis machines to remove water to artificially concentrate wines"
Does anybody do this ?
They even do it in Burgundy and Bordeaux. It's not illegal.
Re: What do you think about these comments ?
ufo wrote:This is from the same American web site that I mentioned last week.
I know Acidification and oak chips are used but how about rest of it?
"Further, on a production level, Australia permits alarming levels of manipulation in the cellar, i.e. artificial acidification, alcohol level manipulation, reverse osmosis machines to remove water to artificially concentrate wines, time-saving vinification machines called rotofermenters, extensive use of manmade, engineered yeasts, dumping hundred pound bags of oak chips into aging vats in lieu of actual barrel aging, and believe me, they use them!….does this sound appealing or authentic to you?
All true enough, and also true of France, Italy, Spain, USA, South Africa, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina.
As bolded - I'd be surprised at that - at least as far as flavours go. Packaging sure. And the last sentence can be applied to France, Italy, Spain, USA....etc. etc.Also, Over 94% of Australian wine is made by 5 Giga corporations like Foster’s and Pernod Ricard that hold consumer focus groups to find out if it’s blackberry or mocha that is latest “new fave†wine flavor. They make wines in vats bigger than Olympic-sized pools with little to no respect for the place from which the grapes are grown, churning out absurd numbers of bottles like so many 2 liter bottles of Coca Cola.
Bolded - yes, and also true for France, Italy, Spain, USA... etc. etc.With the beating that these wines take in the cellar and the baseline difficulties with the terroir from the start, is there any wonder that so many Aussie wines are completely devoid of any real personality? "
If he'd been a bit more specific about the things he was saying, it might have had some value. Nothing about anything he wrote is specific to Australia - except perhaps the 5 largest producers dominating the market. Or is it 3?
cheers,
Graeme
DaveB wrote:ufo wrote:DaveB wrote:The blokes a twat....the U.S.....as Nayan mentions uses all these processes and is allowed more additives than Australia + the use of GM yeasts
No doubt about the guy but how about some of the claims like:
" reverse osmosis machines to remove water to artificially concentrate wines"
Does anybody do this ?
Yes there are....+ reduce alcohol, remove VA, remove brett, etc, etc.
Used by numerous wineries worldwide including top Bordeaux Chateau.
I still think the specific accusation he aimed at Australian makers is not true. To "artificially concentrate wines" is a coded reference to extracting water to boost flavour and/or alcohol. Who uses them for that purpose here? Griffith botrytis-makers? Anyone?
No, I reckon it's sloppy research. That how the Euro's use them. Here, it'd be for different reasons - like the ones you mention.
If he presented his case in court as written up here, it'd be thrown right out!
cheers,
Graeme
DaveB wrote:ufo wrote:DaveB wrote:The blokes a twat....the U.S.....as Nayan mentions uses all these processes and is allowed more additives than Australia + the use of GM yeasts
No doubt about the guy but how about some of the claims like:
" reverse osmosis machines to remove water to artificially concentrate wines"
Does anybody do this ?
Yes there are....+ reduce alcohol, remove VA, remove brett, etc, etc.
Used by numerous wineries worldwide including top Bordeaux Chateau.
The whole thing is consumer driven.... they demand more bang for their buck and consistancy of product...they don't want to know about vintage variation, etc...they want a wine that is reliable year in year out. And of course if the wine produced aligns with certain mega-critics palates for high points that drive sales....all the better.
I am aware of reverse osmosis and other techniques used. What I meant was;
Does anybody in AU do this ?
With warm climate we have here I though the problem was other way around! Not trying to use some techniques to give wine more body but to take it away.
That is the opinion of some american consumers after getting bored of years consuming Yellow Tail and other aussie plonk sold there in the under $8 bottles with cute animals on the labels.
A lot of those consumers are now moving to the "selected market" of French and Spanish plonk of under $8 bottles with cute labels they can't read.
A lot of those consumers are now moving to the "selected market" of French and Spanish plonk of under $8 bottles with cute labels they can't read.
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Waiters Friend
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At the end of the day, there are 'industrial' winemakers in Australia - and the USA, Europe, South America, etc. There are also many many other craftsmen (well, let's not romanticise it too much 
) producing a product which is not made to a rigid formula. Isn't it also known as vintage variation? Boutique winemaking? Where do you draw the line between them? Acid additions, tannins, RO, - the ugly term 'remedial winemaking' - are all part of winemaking, but I believe they decrease as you head further up the quality (and hopefully price) scale. They also seem to be associated with volume production, and less with the 'craftsman' ethos.
The ultra-large production wines (many large bottling runs in a single year) might be considered industrial, and strive for consistency. They exist in all wine-producing countries, and I believe Australia is doing this with a higher level of quality than most. The writer of the article should not be picking on Australia especially, but has a point that 'industrial' wines are produced.
Generally, the wines we talk about here on this forum do not fit into the 'industrial' category, and this is because the wines are so much more varied and interesting. That's not the subject of the article, however.
Australia did well for a decade on 'sunshine in a glass'. We've also been partially successful in developing an international understanding of regional specialities (Barossa Shiraz is probably the most successful). The rest of the world is catching up. Our marketing act needs to be more specialised, and I especially applaud the producers who are hunting out the Asian markets in addition to the conventional ones.
I suppose this has become a long-winded way of responding to the original post, by saying "yes, Australia produces industrial wine- so does everyone else, and it is a large part of the global market". However, I would also be pointing out that those of us who talk on this forum aren't particuarly interested in the industrial wines ANYONE produces, and will continue to debate the finer points of the product of those craftsmen (and women) who make up a relatively small segment of the global wine marketplace.
Cheers
Allan
) producing a product which is not made to a rigid formula. Isn't it also known as vintage variation? Boutique winemaking? Where do you draw the line between them? Acid additions, tannins, RO, - the ugly term 'remedial winemaking' - are all part of winemaking, but I believe they decrease as you head further up the quality (and hopefully price) scale. They also seem to be associated with volume production, and less with the 'craftsman' ethos.
The ultra-large production wines (many large bottling runs in a single year) might be considered industrial, and strive for consistency. They exist in all wine-producing countries, and I believe Australia is doing this with a higher level of quality than most. The writer of the article should not be picking on Australia especially, but has a point that 'industrial' wines are produced.
Generally, the wines we talk about here on this forum do not fit into the 'industrial' category, and this is because the wines are so much more varied and interesting. That's not the subject of the article, however.
Australia did well for a decade on 'sunshine in a glass'. We've also been partially successful in developing an international understanding of regional specialities (Barossa Shiraz is probably the most successful). The rest of the world is catching up. Our marketing act needs to be more specialised, and I especially applaud the producers who are hunting out the Asian markets in addition to the conventional ones.
I suppose this has become a long-winded way of responding to the original post, by saying "yes, Australia produces industrial wine- so does everyone else, and it is a large part of the global market". However, I would also be pointing out that those of us who talk on this forum aren't particuarly interested in the industrial wines ANYONE produces, and will continue to debate the finer points of the product of those craftsmen (and women) who make up a relatively small segment of the global wine marketplace.
Cheers
Allan
Wine, women and song. Ideally, you can experience all three at once.
Agree with all of those assessments of his comments.
Sticking up for our 'industrial' wines, lets not forget that they're very often the door opener for less experienced and confident drinkers that leads onto discovery and exploration in the varied world of premium and boutique.
Consistency and sensory 'safety' works for a lot of people - probably not too many who hang out here.
Horses for courses...
Sticking up for our 'industrial' wines, lets not forget that they're very often the door opener for less experienced and confident drinkers that leads onto discovery and exploration in the varied world of premium and boutique.
Consistency and sensory 'safety' works for a lot of people - probably not too many who hang out here.
Horses for courses...
Enjoying this thread, thank you all.
GreameG wrote
Ah, codification! Very happy to see that term arise in this wine debate
GreameG wrote
I still think the specific accusation he aimed at Australian makers is not true. To "artificially concentrate wines" is a coded reference to extracting water to boost flavour and/or alcohol
Ah, codification! Very happy to see that term arise in this wine debate
As always, IMVHO. And Cheers
jeremy- http://winewilleatitself.blogspot.com/
jeremy- http://winewilleatitself.blogspot.com/