MOG, harvesting machines and method and Andrew Jefford

[jeremy]

Hi all.

I am just seeking thoughts on AJ's latest piece in the Decanter.

My bias- I love Australian wine and want it to succeed

- I think there are many examples of good regional wines that
express themselves in different ways. I have no problems
drinking a big, porty red on occassions, but also enjoy the
perceived finesse of, say, a good medium bodied hunter
shiraz or a king valley sangiovese

- I think it is a myth that still needs debunking, that Australia
only produces big, full flavoured wines.

Ok, I can't find a link to the article but a very quick précis (I'm sure many out there subscribe to Decanter anyway)-

AJ says that harvesting of grapes in Australia may be the reason we are letting ourselves down. He doesn't like to see what he calls the routine practice of 500kg bins of machine-harvested fruit tipped into giant reception hoppers.

He acknowledges that MOG won't make it to the tank but says the problem lies in all the split, shrivelled, and half-ripe berries that will. He also acknowledges that Australian workers work quickly, in the cool of the night, and that most labouring Australians simply don't want to pick grapes; that is left to Cambodians & Bosnians & Sudanese, few of whom, he says, have any cultural grasp of the principals of their work.

He says you only have to smell the fermenters to know that Australia is growing good core fruit and that given this potential, it is disappointing to see a lack of textural dimension and shrillness in many ambitious Australian wines. He remarks that piercing flavour-power alone is not enough and suggests the possibility that the answer may lie in our harvesting methods. He ends by writing that there needs to be a new and more loving engagement with the raw materials in before he really sees the stuff Australia is made of.

Ok, there are much more experienced and wiser people than me on this forum so I am seeking impressions as to all this.

My questions-

1. Are industrial type harvesting practices and MOG a problem in producing good wine?

2. Is it fair to generalise in the way he has on our use of them?

3. Would harvesting techniques/MOG perceived problems manifest as piercingly flavoured, shrill wines lacking textural dimesions?

4. Is it possible that by writing this article and having it published in the Decanter magazine, his generalisations are hurting the Australian wine industry rather than helping it?

ps- he does mention that he has been drinking Giaconda and loving the Chardonnay, Shriaz and Roussanne. I'm not saying he believes all Australian wine to be bad, I'm questioning what seems to me to be the disproportionate amount of words given to Australia's problems,and what seems to me to be another propogation (by accident or otherwise) of the notion most Australian wine is Industrial by nature and reallys on big flavours.

I would truly appreciate any opinions. I am just trying to work this all out.
Thank you.

[cuttlefish]

Just to touch on one point, if I may...

I'm a supporter of the practice of handpicking. I reckon the fruit comes in in good nick if you have a good picking team. The trouble in Australia is that for many producers, hand picking is seen as prohibitively expensive (quite rightly compared to most other parts of the grapegrowing world where third world labour is often freely available), and that in itself is a valid reason to choose to machine harvest. You may not get to preserve all of the wonderful aromatics of your fruit, but at least you'll still be able to afford to get your bottling done further down the track.
Maybe AJ could make an effort to focus on wines where he knows that the fruit has been hand-picked....

[jeremy]

Thanks for that. I've been told, when I was studying wine science, that it doesn't matter much, but when speaking to those out there making wine I often am given the perspective you mention here.

I would have a thought there are a heap of produers out there who don't use harvesting machines, so I agree that AJ should maybe ask them for samples

I'd guess it depend on what he's really here to do?

Cheers

[Joe Cz]

He says you only have to smell the fermenters to know that Australia is growing good core fruit and that given this potential, it is disappointing to see a lack of textural dimension and shrillness in many ambitious Australian wines.

Hmmm...I wouldn't necessarily link machine harvesting with these characters.

Lack of textural dimension and shrillness on the palate are more likely to reflect excessive acid additions, in my opinion.

YMMV,

Joe

[griff]

I need to read the article. I am concerned by the following comments:

"He also acknowledges that Australian workers work quickly, in the cool of the night, and that most labouring Australians simply don't want to pick grapes; that is left to Cambodians & Bosnians & Sudanese, few of whom, he says, have any cultural grasp of the principals of their work."

cheers

Carl

[Wayno]

I need to read the article. I am concerned by the following comments:

"He also acknowledges that Australian workers work quickly, in the cool of the night, and that most labouring Australians simply don't want to pick grapes; that is left to Cambodians & Bosnians & Sudanese, few of whom, he says, have any cultural grasp of the principals of their work."

cheers

Carl

What specifically concerns you about that? It is probably a reality although there are some excellent Cambodian picker teams about.

[kevin c]

Good point griff. I can just imagine hoards of Australian pickers with lamps on their heads picking through the night. And what exactly is cultural about snipping off a bunch of grapes.

[marsalla]

How about you ask AJ to pick a machine picked wine from a hand picked wine, thats if the wines are that 'shrill'.

I suspect he may be writing from his own preconceptions, ( as does everyone I suppose.)

By the way, is he aware that the French pretty much make all the grape harvesters? And is he willing to pay another $5 per bottle for hand picking??

Not sure how many Poles, North Africans and Albanians are culturally sensitive to hand picking either, and thats who now does a lot of the Eurpoean picking.

[griff]

I need to read the article. I am concerned by the following comments:

"He also acknowledges that Australian workers work quickly, in the cool of the night, and that most labouring Australians simply don't want to pick grapes; that is left to Cambodians & Bosnians & Sudanese, few of whom, he says, have any cultural grasp of the principals of their work."

cheers

Carl

What specifically concerns you about that? It is probably a reality although there are some excellent Cambodian picker teams about.

Wayno,

The statement is describing a difference based on a person's cultural background and I want to read the article as I said to confirm it.

My primary concern is that without scientific evidence that the cultural background of the picker influences the grape harvest let alone the finished wine this statement could be misconstrued as racist. I don't think AJ is, so I wish to read the article to see what was published.

If there is a study that this statement is based on, I would like to confirm that all other variables such as an individual's experience (which is a completely different kettle of fish) is taken into account. Anecdotal hearsay is insufficient evidence to make such a sweeping statement based on a person's cultural background.

cheers

Carl

[Glen]

They say the devil is in the detail for a very good reason. It is quite often the detail that makes the difference between a good wine and a great wine - with that detail producing perhaps a 5% difference in quality.

Unfortunately it is the 5% difference in detail that adds an unusually disproportionate amount in production costs.

Hopefully, the producer also see's that 5% difference in quality creating a disproportionate amount in extra revenue eg: sometimes the difference in a $30 and $50 wine is caused by the 5% in extra quality.

From personal experience, I look for that extra 5% in wines. I see the first 95% in quality as a gimme, a base, or a starting point if you will.

With todays knowledge, technology and experience, if you aren't making a wine that is 95% of it's vintage potential, then get another career.

Fruit-sorting is just one part of that extra 5%, but a necessary part.

[Craig(NZ)]

Fruit-sorting is just one part of that extra 5%, but a necessary part.

not as important as crushing the grapes by the dainty feet of naked virgins

(guessing that is impossible in Australia due to the child labour laws??)

[JF]

Fruit-sorting is just one part of that extra 5%, but a necessary part.

not as important as crushing the grapes by the dainty feet of naked virgins

(guessing that is impossible in Australia due to the child labour laws??)

And not being interested in sheep

[Wayno]

I need to read the article. I am concerned by the following comments:

"He also acknowledges that Australian workers work quickly, in the cool of the night, and that most labouring Australians simply don't want to pick grapes; that is left to Cambodians & Bosnians & Sudanese, few of whom, he says, have any cultural grasp of the principals of their work."

cheers

Carl

What specifically concerns you about that? It is probably a reality although there are some excellent Cambodian picker teams about.

Wayno,

The statement is describing a difference based on a person's cultural background and I want to read the article as I said to confirm it.

My primary concern is that without scientific evidence that the cultural background of the picker influences the grape harvest let alone the finished wine this statement could be misconstrued as racist. I don't think AJ is, so I wish to read the article to see what was published.

If there is a study that this statement is based on, I would like to confirm that all other variables such as an individual's experience (which is a completely different kettle of fish) is taken into account. Anecdotal hearsay is insufficient evidence to make such a sweeping statement based on a person's cultural background.

cheers

Carl

Don't disagree with any of what you've said, Carl. I have read the article and I must admit to have raised my eyebrow at the comment at the time but in reality, it is true that a lot of said nationalities do a lot of picking (at least based on my basic understanding). Whether they have 'less cultural grasp' of their work is the debatable thing I suppose and what does that really mean?

[roughred]

I think the mechanical versus hand picking issue is more marketing than anything. If a winery favours one method over the other of course they will find the benefit in it to share with their customers.

Of course we have the perception of dew skinned maidens gently plucking grapes from vines, and carefully placing them into the buckets on a crisp Autumn morning. Might well be the case, but just as likely is a half full bin of grapes sitting around in the hot sun, slowly oxidising whilst a team of plodders break for smoko.

Mechanical harvesting might well be seen as industrial, but at the same time bins are filled in quick time in the relative cool of night, and the fruit can be into the winery, crushed and on its way to the press or fermenter in next to no time.

There are price and quality arguments for both sides, and as long as the winery is doing what they think is best for their fruit it's difficult to take issue.

Oh and as for the article, haven't read it, but on your precis it would seem well wide of the mark. Tiring of OS journalist summing up our 2300 odd wineries and 60 plus regions in a few sweeping sentences.

[Tim Smith]

Hi All,

Firstly, I'll show my hand and admit I havent read the AJ article but...

Grab a glass, this may take some time....

Whereas I've never been involved in a rigorous comparison looking at 2 wines from the one vineyard hand picked vs machine, I have seen quite a few spectacular wines made from machine picked fruit and some fairly ordinary ones from hand picked and vice versa if you follow.
From my observations, if you have a vineyard that has healthy fruit, free of disease and a well set up mechanical harvester, the results are actually better than some hand picked fruit I have seen. If one thinks about the whole production process, a mechanical harvester is essentially a destemmer, but one that is operating in a vineyard. The machine (and I repeat, a well set up machine) does exactly what a crusher destemmer does; in fact with some producers using a destemmer only i.e no crusher, so there is no mechanical maceration of the berries, the results are actually less likely to cause so called problems associated with machine harvesters. All the machine does is knock the berries of the rachis (the stems) and they are then transferred to a recieval bin via a series of belts. Hardly mechanical handling one would say. Once in the winery, the fruit is then subjected to 'pumping over' or 'hand plunging' or 'delistage' (running the free run juice of the fermenting must and jetting, via a pump back over the skins to extract colour and flavour. Why would anybody bother handpicking their fruit when it is going to go through this sort of mechanical agitation? Possibly the answer lies in the fact that some vineyards simply arent set up for mechanical harvesting (the slopes of the Rhone Valley spring to mind-it's illegal anyway), maybe the vineyard does have a disease/heat affected problem that needs manual sorting in the vineyard. Old vines are also prone to having their cordons broken and young vines tend to not be strong enough for mechanical harvesting.
I could go on forever..I cant stress highly enough; vineyard and harvesters that are set up and for this type of harvest are what I'm referring to; and also, to a degree, it is more red wine production I am referring to.
One thing i guess to concede; some of the truly great wines are made from hand picked fruit. If the winemaker/grower has gone to the trouble and expense to go down that path then it logically follows that their approach to the whole winemaking process would have the same level of care and application. Same thing for Biodynamic/Organic vs conventional agriculture.....
Sorry to labour on about it, I just love shooting down the myths in our industry!!!

Bring on the flak...

Tim

[Michael McNally]

Tim I can see the strength in your reply, but I thought the impact of harvesters was mainly in compacting the ground between the rows and damaging the vines by overvigorous shaking. I accept that this is no more than "perceived wisdom", which is the same as myth in most circumstances, and possibly based on outdated technology. Any truth to those myths while you've got your mythbusters hat on?

Overall, I think the thrust of your argument - "it depends" - needs to be applied more rigorously everywhere. I particularly find the term "Australian wine" such a sweeping generalisation as to be a nonsense.

Cheers

Michael

[Tim Smith]

Thats a great point re soil compaction and vine damage Michael, I completely overlooked that one!! I was braced to have to use as a reply things along the line of 'I like mechanical harvesting during the day because the fruit comes in warmer and colour extraction is greater with less maceration' to add desired winemaking outcomes to my first post..
I think your point is going down the road of mechanical harvesters and their impact on the environment (vines and ground?). My knowledge on this impact is fairly shallow, but my limited 'perceived wisdom' on this side of that issue would be probably to lean towards it not being a good thing for the vines and soil. (I'm waiting for a viticulturist to jump in here and give some clarity).
And yes, I'm with you on the 'Australian wine' term being a broad descriptor-both Giaconda Chardonnay and Bin 65 Chardonnay are Australian Chardonnays but one wouldnt necessarily lump them in the same category when talking about Australian wine..
Best regards,

Tim

[Waiters Friend]

"All the machine does is knock the berries of the rachis (the stems) and they are then transferred to a recieval bin via a series of belts. Hardly mechanical handling one would say."

Definitely mechanical handling, and the question of effectively destemming and breaking the skin (thus exposing the juice to oxygen) in the vineyard (potentially some hours before crushing, regardless of ambient temperature) has to be asked.

Having said that, if the distance between the mechanical harvesting and the crusher is small, and the harvesting is performed in optimal conditions (esp temperature), then there is a compelling argument in favour of the mechanical harvesting.

If the conditions suit, then mechanical harvesting is a boon. If your vineyard is too small and it is uneconomical for all sorts of reasons to bring the behemoth in, then don't.

The smaller vineyards will promote 'hand-picked' (in some cases because they can't afford to hire the behemoth) and this is a marketing ploy. Some mechanically harvested fruit arrives at the crusher in better condition, but you don't see Lindemans Bin 65 being promoted as 'mechanically harvested - for a better taste'.

For me, it is the exposure to oxygen, and the ambient temperature that form the parameters of the 'hand picked vs mechanical harvesting' argument, and I believe that the vineyard manager needs to make the best choice to suit the site.

Cheers

Allan

[RogerPike]

"The smaller vineyards will promote 'hand-picked' (in some cases because they can't afford to hire the behemoth) and this is a marketing ploy."
Cheers

Allan

Bullshit.

Hand picking is much more expensive, even for very small vineyards. Machine picking is dirt cheap.

Hand picking is not a marketing ploy. Fruit can be selected and better wine is the result. Not to mention the avoidance of the soil compaction and vine damage referred to previously.

Roger

[GraemeG]

Hand picking is not a marketing ploy. Fruit can be selected and better wine is the result. Not to mention the avoidance of the soil compaction and vine damage referred to previously.
Roger

Yes. There may be logistical practicalities with trying to hand-pick in massive vineyards, but really, however gentle the machine is at removing the grapes (and treading lightly on the ground) the fact remains that hand pickers can do selections in the vineyard.

Now, Yquem hand-pick so the pickers can take these grapes and not those grapes, which need another week, for instance. I realise that picking grapes for dry wines isn't perhaps so exacting, but the principle applies. I've picked grapes at harvest, and there can be a few dodgy berries on an otherwise good bunch. With hand-picking, it's easy to just snip those off before the rest go into the bucket. (And of course, with diligent pickers there's no MoG at all).

With the super obsessive wineries (all those burgundians with their sorting tables) this cuts down on the work that has to be done later in the winery.

OK, it may not be an appropriate technique for a $20 cab-shiraz, but - up to a certain scale - hand picking has got to be better for grape quality.

If the vineyard is so big that your hand pickers can't get around it before some of the grapes get over-ripe - in other words, time is the big factor - then the average quality may well be better using the machines; you get it all in, fast, at the right ripeness level, with minimal risk from weather, or whatever. On average, then hand-picking is better.

As mentioned somewhere, the devil is in the detail.
cheers,
Graeme

[DaveB]

4. Is it possible that by writing this article and having it published in the Decanter magazine, his generalisations are hurting the Australian wine industry rather than helping it?

I presume his next article will be on how 95% of the vineyards in Chablis are machine harvested also??

At Pinot South a few years back they had two wines, one hand picked one machine harvested....vinified the same way from the same block and the differences were marked....that said with the new generation harvesters MOG is becoming less of an issue...soil compaction is another matter.

[marsalla]

4. Is it possible that by writing this article and having it published in the Decanter magazine, his generalisations are hurting the Australian wine industry rather than helping it?

I presume his next article will be on how 95% of the vineyards in Chablis are machine harvested also??

At Pinot South a few years back they had two wines, one hand picked one machine harvested....vinified the same way from the same block and the differences were marked....that said with the new generation harvesters MOG is becoming less of an issue...soil compaction is another matter.

Interesting, did they add back rachis to the pinot that was machine picked?

That said, I think there are a lot of people who talk about harvesters that havent really any idea of how they work. Have a look at this and see where harvesters are now

http://www.pellenc.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=570

cheers

[Red Bigot]

Does anyone know if this gear made it into commercial use?

http://www.cheng.cam.ac.uk/people/falco ... aking.html

[DaveB]

4. Is it possible that by writing this article and having it published in the Decanter magazine, his generalisations are hurting the Australian wine industry rather than helping it?

I presume his next article will be on how 95% of the vineyards in Chablis are machine harvested also??

At Pinot South a few years back they had two wines, one hand picked one machine harvested....vinified the same way from the same block and the differences were marked....that said with the new generation harvesters MOG is becoming less of an issue...soil compaction is another matter.

Interesting, did they add back rachis to the pinot that was machine picked?

That said, I think there are a lot of people who talk about harvesters that havent really any idea of how they work. Have a look at this and see where harvesters are now

http://www.pellenc.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=570


Not sure about that....those new Pellenc's look pretty amazing
cheers

[RogerPike]

4. Is it possible that by writing this article and having it published in the Decanter magazine, his generalisations are hurting the Australian wine industry rather than helping it?

I presume his next article will be on how 95% of the vineyards in Chablis are machine harvested also??

At Pinot South a few years back they had two wines, one hand picked one machine harvested....vinified the same way from the same block and the differences were marked....that said with the new generation harvesters MOG is becoming less of an issue...soil compaction is another matter.

Interesting, did they add back rachis to the pinot that was machine picked?

That said, I think there are a lot of people who talk about harvesters that havent really any idea of how they work. Have a look at this and see where harvesters are now

http://www.pellenc.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=570

cheers

Sure, the new harvesters are getting better at keeping the junk out of the bin but:
a) Not many with the latest technology being used yet.
and
b) They do not sort the grapes. They filter the junk. They see no difference between a rotting bunch and a healthy bunch.

Also, the new technology does nothing to address the other issues, soil compaction etc.

Roger

[marsalla]

Thats easy, don't grow rotten bunches in the first place!

As for the sorters, thee is some impressive stuff under development with electronic eyes and blowers to sort fruit.
Roger, the compaction seems to be a big point, doesnt the fact that the harvester wheels sit in a different part of the row reduce that issue, as does the one pass a year for a harvester, when its normally pretty dry, reduce compaction issues, versus 10+ passes per year for tractors and trailed implements when the soil is moister (is that a word?)

The worst mog I have seen was on hand picked fruit.

A bike

[RogerPike]

Thats easy, don't grow rotten bunches in the first place!

I never intend to grow rotten bunches or to engage with morons but unfortunately both events occur occasionally.

Roger

[David]

Soil Compaction - when grapes are hand picked usually a tractor with a hopper or a bucket follows the hand pickers. Are we suggesting there is a difference with a machine harvester following the same path?

Soil compaction is a result of soil cultivation and machines after that. Best practice is now is not to cultivate IMHO.

Im with Tim Smith on the other issues. (and with his wine)

[RogerPike]

Soil Compaction - when grapes are hand picked usually a tractor with a hopper or a bucket follows the hand pickers. Are we suggesting there is a difference with a machine harvester following the same path?

Soil compaction is a result of soil cultivation and machines after that. Best practice is now is not to cultivate IMHO.

Im with Tim Smith on the other issues. (and with his wine)

Yes, I am suggesting that there is a difference between 8000kg and 1000kg.

Roger

[David]

Soil Compaction - when grapes are hand picked usually a tractor with a hopper or a bucket follows the hand pickers. Are we suggesting there is a difference with a machine harvester following the same path?

Soil compaction is a result of soil cultivation and machines after that. Best practice is now is not to cultivate IMHO.

Im with Tim Smith on the other issues. (and with his wine)

Yes, I am suggesting that there is a difference between 8000kg and 1000kg.

Roger

8 tonnes up and down the row? Not in my vineyard. And I would suggest not in a quality vineyard. Lets not look at extremes but what is done to produce quality fruit at the crusher.

If we need to hand sort in the vineyard the vintage has problems anyway.