Botrytis Red

[08meltdown]

I have been wondering why there is no botrytis Red. Not that I can see anyway. There is botrytis riesling and semillon. I am sure if red grapes are left long enough on vines they will "rot".
So what is the reason for not making botrytis red?

[Waiters Friend]

Hi 08meltdown

Botrytis Cineria can occur in any grapes, and is a good or bad thing, depending on when in the season it occurs. Occurrence any time up to harvest for conventional wine production is generally seen as a bad thing, and various chemical and environmental practices are employed in the vineyard during ripening to ward away the evil spores.

If the 'noble rot' is encouraged and cultivated after the usual ripening period, the dehydration of the grape by the fungus concentrates the sugar levels, resulting in a dark squishy mess at crush, but also ends up producing the stickies we know and love.

The Amarone method for producing some (dry) red wines can rely on some botrytis affecting the grapes, but not too much! The drying is done predominantly by the sun, on racks ater harvest.

Apart from that, I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the main reason we don't see red botrytis 'stickies' is that they don't taste very good A South African article also refers to substandard colour and off-odours.

http://www.wynboer.co.za/recentarticles/0301bot.php3

Hope this helps. If there have been any successful red botrytis wines produced, I'd be delighted to hear about them!

Allan

[08meltdown]

Thanks Waiter's Friend.

I guess you may be right that red stickies would not possess better fragrance and taste better than white stickies. Reds are not normally associated with citrus and flowery nose or taste.
But still red botrytis would be welcome by red drinkers.

[Waiters Friend]

"But still red botrytis would be welcome by red drinkers."

Perhaps, but not if the wine has been stripped down by the process or results in 'off' flavours or aromas. A good rich red wine can be a good match on occasion where the dessert contains good quality chocolate, with a touch of bitterness.

More likely, however, is that the 'red only' drinker is more likely than not to reach for a bottle of Rutherglen muscat or tokay to accompany dessert. Alternative, they might give dessert a miss and head straight for the cheeseboard (and with some cheeses, especially blues, a botrytis white can be magic).

As I am a white drinker as well as a red drinker (and a sticky drinker), I'd be delighted to hear from Brian, Ric and other dedicated red bigots for their comments, especially if I've got it wrong

Cheers

Allan

[08meltdown]

Allan,

Just thinking, the main difference between red and white wine making is the fermentation on skin in reds. Now if red grapes are all mouldy (noble rot) then it would most probably smell and taste of moulds. That will turn even red lovers off I suppose. Therefore no red stickies. QED.

I leave it to other experts for better explanations.

[Waiters Friend]

It may not be quite as simple as that. The botrytis spores seriously coat the skins and invade them, and the crush includes the skins, pulp, and everything else (so it's all still 'live' at that point).

If fermentation of a botrytis red took place 'off skins' after free run and pressing (as it does for normal whites, and in a tank), then you would achieve a lot less colour and 'red' flavour.

If it occurred 'on skins' like a conventional red ferment, all the nasties on the skin would be given 'carte blanche' to pervade the wine with the nasty odours referred to earlier. But at least it might be red. And you'd have a really unattractive cap to plunge (or pump over) a couple of times a day (if using open fermenters).

Your 'QED' comment may well prove to be correct. I'd still like to hear from people with more experience than me in the winery.

One last thing to include in the mix. Open ferments can be temperature controlled, but not as easily as tank ferments. Your botrytis red might be burning off sugars into the atmosphere at a high enough temperature

Cheers

Allan

[Red Bigot]

"But still red botrytis would be welcome by red drinkers."

Perhaps, but not if the wine has been stripped down by the process or results in 'off' flavours or aromas. A good rich red wine can be a good match on occasion where the dessert contains good quality chocolate, with a touch of bitterness.

More likely, however, is that the 'red only' drinker is more likely than not to reach for a bottle of Rutherglen muscat or tokay to accompany dessert. Alternative, they might give dessert a miss and head straight for the cheeseboard (and with some cheeses, especially blues, a botrytis white can be magic).

As I am a white drinker as well as a red drinker (and a sticky drinker), I'd be delighted to hear from Brian, Ric and other dedicated red bigots for their comments, especially if I've got it wrong

Cheers

Allan

Allan,
We are a pragmatic lot, Champagne and good sweet whites are occasional exceptions to the usual red-only diet and indeed if someone else is paying for some exceptional Pinot or white wines some of us would probably indulge in a glass or two.

The basic premise is that at the sort of price range we usually drink at red wines are just so much more satisfying and enjoyable that it really is a case of why bother with whites, life truly is too short.

In fact, at any quality and price range that I've ever tried that rule applies for me.

Hundreds of years of promotion of Champagne as the "celebration drink" is pretty hard to counter and a drinkable Champagne can still be had at an affordable price. And unfortunately the production of high-quality sparkling red seems to be in the doldrums at the moment with both Seppelts and Leasingham suffering Brett and other problems, so the premium-level sparkling red range is pretty limited at present.

As this thread has noted, there aren't many good examples of sweet red table wines, certainly not with botrytis and fortifieds are not always the best answer to the need for a sweeter wine, so a sweet white may occasionally be required to do the job.

[Wayno]

As this thread has noted, there aren't many good examples of sweet red table wines, certainly not with botrytis and fortifieds are not always the best answer to the need for a sweeter wine, so a sweet white may occasionally be required to do the job.

Heavens forbid

[smithy]

Why no botrytis red.
Actually there is.
It doesn't get that far as a sticky red, due to technical reasons.
(the pH is higher in a red and the so2 is bound to colour, so that the wines age very badly due to the laccace enzyme from the Bc destroying the red wine colour.
Its why reds from mouldy fruit prematutrely brown.
Cheers
Smithy

[TORB]

Hobbs Grenache 2007

Dessert Wines Sweet Wine Grenache Wine

Wine Description

This dessert wine has been crafted using ideas from the original semi dried wine styles of France and Italy. After hand picking, the grapes are placed on racks to semi dry. This mixed with high natural acid gives and intense clean finish on the palate. The result is our own unique style of a full bodied rich, sweet Grenache. Approximately 800 litres made.

Wine Tasting Notes

A rich garnet colour, intense aromas of red berries, black-currants, cassis and a delicate scent of freshly cut red roses. Excellent weight of flavours showing a mixture of rich black currents, cherries, raspberries, jam, toffee apple and hints of dark chocolate and mocha. Wildly long and luscious with a wonderful clean crisp finish that lingers.

[pstarr]

The Hobbs sounds like a vin de paille/amarone style (ie no botrytis) jobbie.

Sagrantino made in the passito style is another example of a rack-dried sweet red wine, where botrytis is avoided.

[Nayan]

There are sweet Botrytised reds around; but they are very rare (and priced accordingly).

I've tried one from Germany, made from Dornfelder and another from Tokaj (Hungary) made from Kekfrankos.

Neither were particularly memorable, beyond the curiosity factor.

[JamieH]

Sanchez Romante Pedro Ximenex sherry, px in general, oloroso sherrys, De bortli black noble, the red drinkers dessert wines.

Jamie

[Nayan]

Sanchez Romante Pedro Ximenex sherry, px in general, oloroso sherrys, De bortli black noble, the red drinkers dessert wines.

Jamie

All very nice, and all made from white varieties...

PX and Olorosos are not made from botrytised grapes.

[Waiters Friend]

Sanchez Romante Pedro Ximenex sherry, px in general, oloroso sherrys, De bortli black noble, the red drinkers dessert wines.

Jamie

All very nice, and all made from white varieties...

PX and Olorosos are not made from botrytised grapes.

Touche`, Nayan, on all fronts.

Does this mean a breach in the fortress of the Red Bigots? Heaven forbid!

[JamieH]

Duly noted Nayan, i just found my red only friends love the Px and oloroso sherry i've been introducing them to, espeically the Sanchez Romante. i forgot to mention Inniskillin Cab Franc icewine, no botryis but indeed a sweet red (bit pricey, but considering the production method, understandable).