2004 Langmeil 'The Freedom' Shiraz

[Davo]

Your words MA, not mine:-

"So I went and took every bottle of expensive sale-price wine to the cash register to do a price check.
With the last bottle I struck gold. The 2004 Langmeil 'Freedom' Shiraz priced at C$110, reduced to C$72, scanned at C$25.99.

Christmas can come early.........Mahmoud. "

Make up your own mind. I consider you to be dishonest and a thief.

You, however, can think of youself whatever you wish. You have to live with yourself, I have to live with what I am.

[Daryl Douglas]

There was a devout, reverend pastor whose soul, after release from his earthly shell, approached Saint Peter at the entrance to heaven. St Peter informed this soul that inside the Pearly Gates he would find a staircase upon each stair of which he was required to write a sin committed during his earthly existence with the pencil then handed to him by Saint Peter with the explanation that after every sin had been admitted, expunged, entrance to heaven would finally be granted.

So the reverend's soul duly commenced to ascend the staircase, step by step recording every sin ever committed in his earthly existence.

Shortly after, the soul of one of the pastor's congregation was assigned the same task. This soul was some way below to where the pastor's had ascended but was surprised to to see the pastor's descending so asked, "Where are you going?" to receive the reply, "To get another pencil!"

Don't run out of pencils Davo.

[Roscoe]

At the risk of getting barbed by sitting on the fence, I have some agreement with both Davo and Daz. I believe we should all try to aim at Davo's high ideals, but the reality is that we are human and too often fall short. It is important that we recognise however, when we do fall short, because otherwise we will never aim higher.

[prester john]

Easy up, Davo.

I just had to jump in on this one.

All MA is guily of is seeing a perfectly legal way to take advantage of another person's mistake. I've been guily of doing it myself once or twice. Let's say the worse happened and he got caught doing what he did. The shopkeeper would call it a flagrant error and refuse to honour the scanned price. It is not theft and I'm not even sure that it's dishonest.

I'm not sure how to describe this sort of event, but perhaps "finders keepers" is a good start. It may be akin to finding a $50 bill floating around and picking it up and placing it in your wallet instead of going to the police and handing it in as lost property. As it happens, this happened to me, and I don't feel that I did anything dishonest. Of course, if the amount found was perhaps $1,000 or $10,000 I would feel differently but that's not what we are discussing. I think this relatively trivial benefit obtained by MA would, and should, not even raise an eyebrow with respect to any moral questionability.


PJ. [/u]

[orpheus]

I'm with Mahmoud.

The woman wouldn't sell anyone the wines for the marked prices, and insisted on selling things at the scanned prices.

She could see for herself the marked prices.

Her employer might have the right to be angry with her, but not at Mahmoud.

I'd quite like to shop there myself.....

[Mahmoud Ali]

Davo,

You didn't answer any of my questions. But okay, lets go back to my original post that seems to have so upset you and let me ask you the following.

"So I went and took every bottle of expensive sale-priced wine to the cash register to do a price check." Do you think that selecting expensive bottles is wrong? How about the price check, is that wrong?

"The 2004 Langmeil 'Freedom' Shiraz priced at C$110, reduced to C$72, scanned at C$25.99." This is merely a statement of fact. I'm sure you're not upset about the the original price, or the fact that the tag had a handwritten reduced price. So I assume your objection might be the price in their computerized cash register. Am I to understand that you know they didn't want to sell the wine C$25.99 and that I should have refused to buy it, knowing full well that there was no other price in the register and that the next customer for the Langmeil would get the bargain (or steal).

"With the last bottle I struck gold." This is not much different from finding something in the last place you looked. There were 7-8 bottles on the counter, it just so happened it was the last on scanned.

"Christmas can come early...." surely you don't object to early Christmas gifts?

Exactly what was thievery, which part was dishonest? Or is the mere fact of getting a "too good to be true" deal the problem.

Think about answering the questions for a change instead of merely flinging accusations. If you can't address any of my explanations or comments then your judgement looks to be based on some kind of irrational bias.

Mahmoud.

PS: Davo, don't read the other post called "When a Wine Deal is a Steal". Its full of shady and nefarious characters.

[griff]

Davo,

You didn't answer any of my questions. But okay, lets go back to my original post that seems to have so upset you and let me ask you the following.

"So I went and took every bottle of expensive sale-priced wine to the cash register to do a price check." Do you think that selecting expensive bottles is wrong? How about the price check, is that wrong?

"The 2004 Langmeil 'Freedom' Shiraz priced at C$110, reduced to C$72, scanned at C$25.99." This is merely a statement of fact. I'm sure you're not upset about the the original price, or the fact that the tag had a handwritten reduced price. So I assume your objection might be the price in their computerized cash register. Am I to understand that you know they didn't want to sell the wine C$25.99 and that I should have refused to buy it, knowing full well that there was no other price in the register and that the next customer for the Langmeil would get the bargain (or steal).

"With the last bottle I struck gold." This is not much different from finding something in the last place you looked. There were 7-8 bottles on the counter, it just so happened it was the last on scanned.

"Christmas can come early...." surely you don't object to early Christmas gifts?

Exactly what was thievery, which part was dishonest? Or is the mere fact of getting a "too good to be true" deal the problem.

Think about answering the questions for a change instead of merely flinging accusations. If you can't address any of my explanations or comments then your judgement looks to be based on some kind of irrational bias.

Mahmoud.

PS: Davo, don't read the other post called "When a Wine Deal is a Steal". Its full of shady and nefarious characters.

Mahmoud,

Just my two cents here. You have appeared to go to some length to take advantage of a situation. You admitted that you thought it an "error of some kind" yet you decided to take advantage.

You may want to break down your behaviour into isolated events but you should realise that ethics and morality don't deal in isolated actions. They also usually take into consideration repercussions and most importantly most theories of ethics look at the intent behind the action.

If you wonder about the morality of the situation, games theory suggests that it is inappropriate to take advantage of another and cooperation is the best policy. There are many excuses one can provide in real life though e.g. they should have known better, they did it first, they are a large multinational and I am the underdog here, I deserve the money more than the taxman does as I earned it, its not my fault that I was born into my position of society etc.

The thing is that while we may all aspire to altruism, the majority of us do take advantage of others quite often in day to day life. It is best however to realise that while it is common behavior it is not something should be considered exemplary behavior. Particularly on the moral front.

While I of course admit to having spotted the odd bargain myself and indeed taking advantage of the situation I don't think I will publish for all to see as I am not proud of it.

cheers

Carl

[Davo]

There was a devout, reverend pastor whose soul, after release from his earthly shell, approached Saint Peter at the entrance to heaven. St Peter informed this soul that inside the Pearly Gates he would find a staircase upon each stair of which he was required to write a sin committed during his earthly existence with the pencil then handed to him by Saint Peter with the explanation that after every sin had been admitted, expunged, entrance to heaven would finally be granted.

So the reverend's soul duly commenced to ascend the staircase, step by step recording every sin ever committed in his earthly existence.

Shortly after, the soul of one of the pastor's congregation was assigned the same task. This soul was some way below to where the pastor's had ascended but was surprised to to see the pastor's descending so asked, "Where are you going?" to receive the reply, "To get another pencil!"

Don't run out of pencils Davo.

Oh, I have committed plenty of sins, especially when I was younger. Am I proud of the things I did? No. Have I changed? You bet. Am I a Christian? No way. Do I think what MA did was wrong, despite the support he has garnered here? Yes I do. Would I do the same? Never.

As I said, how you want to live your life is your busines, but it does gall me when people gloat in their deeds.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Griff,

Your point is well taken. You're right to suggest that if I thought there was an error then it a question of taking advantage of a situation. However, I really did think that there was a real possibility that some of the wines were priced lower. After all, the staff knew the prices and didn't think they had made an error.

The two staff members and I were at the counter when the gentleman left with his Dead Arm. I asked them about the sale that had just taken place, we talked about the lower price and they were quite comfortable with the sale. I even asked if it was okay if I did a price check on their other sale-priced wines. They said fine, and so I picked 6-7 wines (yes, the expensive ones) and took them to the counter. A few scanned at the reduced price, I think one at the higher price , one didn't scan at all, and the Langmeil at a lower price.

I broke down my actions into "isolated events" because Davo wouldn't address anything I said in my other posts. He repeatedly quoted a section of my original post and said that was enough to judge my intentions, calling me dishonest and a thief. His simplistic argument and characterizations reduced me to simplifying my response. Sorry about that.

Cheers.......Mahmoud

[RogerPike]

Oh, I have committed plenty of sins, especially when I was younger. Am I proud of the things I did? No. Have I changed? You bet. Am I a Christian? No way. Do I think what MA did was wrong, despite the support he has garnered here? Yes I do. Would I do the same? Never.

As I said, how you want to live your life is your business, but it does gall me when people gloat in their deeds.

Well said, that is a pretty good summary of my position too.

Cheers,

Roger

[Michael McNally]

I believe I am ethical and have morals and try to live my life treating other people in the manner in which I would like to be treated. I am certain other people are not made of the same fabric.

I find it very hard to reconcile these two sentences. They appear to contradict one another.

In what way MM? I am sure there are people who lack ethics /morals otherwise there would not be a criminal element. (Or indeed, lawyers ) Perhaps you think it unethical and immoral of me to suggest that folk of this ilk exist.

Hi Davo

I guess it was the juxtaposition of the sentiments and what that juxtaposition meant that I was commenting on. You say you try to live your life by a code which means you treat others with the respect you yourself would expect, yet you then say these "other people" do not do that. It just seemed you were putting yourself in a class above other people rather than treating them as you expect to be treated. If we accept that there are bad people out there, we don't need to treat them in the same way? I certainly do not suggest is is unethical or immoral to say that there are people who lack morals, but if you treat people differently, or worse, because you believe them to be of a certain "ilk", that would be acting contrary to your first assertion. But perhaps it is just that your views could have been expressed differently and I am misinterpreting your intent? I don't know. Apart from reading your posts here, I don't know you.

Kind regards

Michael

[Davo]

I believe I am ethical and have morals and try to live my life treating other people in the manner in which I would like to be treated. I am certain other people are not made of the same fabric.

I find it very hard to reconcile these two sentences. They appear to contradict one another.

In what way MM? I am sure there are people who lack ethics /morals otherwise there would not be a criminal element. (Or indeed, lawyers ) Perhaps you think it unethical and immoral of me to suggest that folk of this ilk exist.

Hi Davo

I guess it was the juxtaposition of the sentiments and what that juxtaposition meant that I was commenting on. You say you try to live your life by a code which means you treat others with the respect you yourself would expect, yet you then say these "other people" do not do that. It just seemed you were putting yourself in a class above other people rather than treating them as you expect to be treated. If we accept that there are bad people out there, we don't need to treat them in the same way? I certainly do not suggest is is unethical or immoral to say that there are people who lack morals, but if you treat people differently, or worse, because you believe them to be of a certain "ilk", that would be acting contrary to your first assertion. But perhaps it is just that your views could have been expressed differently and I am misinterpreting your intent? I don't know. Apart from reading your posts here, I don't know you.

Kind regards

Michael

Michael, I treat everyone the way I expect to be treated myself, no matter their background or previous form. This is something that happens on a daily basis courtesy of my profession. Prejudgement of patients is one of the worst traps you can fall into.

But I see where you are coming from. The statement that there are people not made of the same fabric is a simple observation and not a judgement of them.

Interestingly, I would expect to be considered a thief if I had done what MA has so proudly done and gloated about, so I guess even in this instance I am treating someone the way I would wish to be treated myself.

[Michael McNally]

Michael, I treat everyone the way I expect to be treated myself, no matter their background or previous form. This is something that happens on a daily basis courtesy of my profession. Prejudgement of patients is one of the worst traps you can fall into.

But I see where you are coming from. The statement that there are people not made of the same fabric is a simple observation and not a judgement of them.

Interestingly, I would expect to be considered a thief if I had done what MA has so proudly done and gloated about, so I guess even in this instance I am treating someone the way I would wish to be treated myself.

Thanks Davo. I see what you are saying and I think the final sentiment holds true and is a good explanation of your intent, though I disagree with your assertion that Mahmoud has stolen anything. I think that is contested. I believe that if you try to think the best of people, as I do, you would try to believe that Mahmoud's clarification is plausible, possible and constitutes something other than theft.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Morality, ethics, sins of the past, personal redemption. All this over a bottle of wine sold for cheap in a clearance section of a shop.

Treat people the way I expect to be treated? Sure, first off, if I was the retailer:

Would I want to refuse customers the price listed on the shelf tag? No!
Would I want to tell customers that I don’t know the price of a wine on the shelf and that therefore I wouldn’t sell it to them? No!
Would I expect a customer to refuse to buy a wine if my staff gave them a lower price? No!
Would I expect the customer to refuse to purchase the wine? No!
Would I ever expect the customer to refuse a price too good to be true. No!
Would I expect customers to look for bargains and deals if they thought they were there for the asking? Yes!
If my staff decided to give away wines for free would I expect customers to refuse it? No!

Just what are you guys driving at?

Mahmoud

[Roscoe]

The issue is not how you expect to be treated, not at all. It is about how you would wish to be treated. There is a world of difference.

If you truly wish other people would take advantage of your mistakes and to your loss, I don't see any great problems with your actions.

If you would prefer other people to point out your mistakes and prevent personal loss, I do see an ethical issue.

[Boyeah]

Moh,
More you argued about it, deeper you digging yourself in, whether you go up or down is none of our business nor for us to judge.
One thing for sure what you did it was not right!!!
If I were you, I'll return the wine, and walk out with my head high, and buy myself a lottery ticket.
Cheers
Boyeah

[Mahmoud Ali]

Roscoe,

You’re right, there is a difference between wishes and expectations. However both wishes and expectations must be realistic.

I can wish for all sorts of things. I can wish for peace and goodwill all over the world but I would be foolish to expect it. I can wish for all marriages to last forever but it would be foolish to expect it. I might wish for my relationship to last forever but if I acted as if I expected it, that too would be foolish.

The examples that I gave in my last post still applies.

“Would I want to refuse customers the price listed on the shelf tag? No!”
Would I want to tell customers that I don’t know the price of a wine on the shelf and that therefore I wouldn’t sell it to them? No!
Would I expect a customer to refuse to buy a wine if my staff gave them a lower price? No!
Would I expect the customer to refuse to purchase the wine? No!
Would I ever expect the customer to refuse a price too good to be true. No!
Would I expect customers to look for bargains and deals if they thought they were there for the asking? Yes!
If my staff decided to give away wines for free would I expect customers to refuse it? No!”

I don't think any "wishes" that I might have pertain to the action of the customers. The things I would wish for is that my shop be perfectly run, my staff polite and competent, and that I never have to discount a bottle of wine. Yes, perfection indeed.

However, I can’t have missing price tags, give incorrect prices, refuse to sell customers bottles of wine, supposedly ring up the wrong price, and then expect the customers to pretend or act as if my shop was as I wished it to be and not as it is. So I cannot, realistically, wish for anything other than what I expect, as listed above.

Boyeah, the shop knew the original price of the wine and the sale price. They asked me for a lower price and I paid for it. I don’t see why I should return it. If the shop forgot to charge me for something then it would be different, like giving back too much change. Once, in Sydney, I was sent an extra case in a two-for-one deal. That was a clear error and so I called them.

I can see it now. “I want to return a bottle of wine because I think the sale price was too low.” Pause. “Do you have your receipt?”

Cheers.........Mahmoud.

[Roscoe]

I don't think any "wishes" that I might have pertain to the action of the customers. The things I would wish for is that my shop be perfectly run, my staff polite and competent, and that I never have to discount a bottle of wine. Yes, perfection indeed.

A shopkeeper who has no wishes pertaining to the actions of his customers would be a very strange one. A perfectly run shop requires customers that behave within fairly strictly defined parameters. A perfectly run shop without these appropriate customers reminds me of the brilliantly run hospital in "Yes, Minister"- the one without patients. The point is that none of us really lives in isolation. All of us impact on each other in some way, to a greater or lesser extent. "No man is an island".

I agree wishes need to be realistic. I can wish every person I meets hands me a bottle of Grange. This is not realistic in this world. You seem to perceive a world in which it is not realistic to wish people will look out for their fellow man. I don't believe this is an unrealistic wish even if I know it will not happen on every occasion. In your world I see nothing wrong with your actions. You should see that however that they are self-fulfilling and circular. If you tend to act in this way, people around you will act in this way, which will encourage you to continue acting in this way etc. But this can also work in a more altruistic way with more positive deeds.

I'm not sure you really live in this dark world, because you have shown us that you can be altruistic. Perhaps this is all just rationalization on your part.

We live in an imperfect world, and I'm sure we always will, but that shouldn't inhibit people from trying to make it better.

Your actions haven't made much difference, and I know I am a long way from perfect, but if we want to live in a less imperfect world, we need to recognise that a whole lot of little things can add up to a lot.

P.S. Do you really want other people to always take advantage of your mistakes to your loss, or would you prefer them to point them out to prevent loss? Expectations should not come into it.

[wiggum]

Mahmoud in this case, I'm with you. Boy your getting a hammering.

So who decides the purchase of the bottle at $26 is theft?

Lets say it came up at $40, no $50 or maybe even $65 ($7 less than tag) -if he bought at any of these prices does it make him dishonest & a thief. I think not.

The facts are that Mahmoud has not tricked or deceived any of the staff. Has paid what was asked of him. In the letter of the law this is not theft.

Morally is where the debate is at. Yes it is a little opportunistic, but do consider it was a solitary bottle. The register staff seem pretty regimented and inflexible in their ability to decide on the fair and appropriate price to be paid for a variety of items. If thats their style and aren't being fair with other marked discounts they should be honouring, then gee if one comes your way I cant see the problem with snapping it up. They can't have it both ways.

Look at the upside for the business - when the manager does his books/stocktake etc he/she might pick this purchase up and realise she/he might have to do a bit of research and training of the staff and maybe identify more bots that have been marked a little low for comfort . Mahmoud you may have (by your timing) actually saved the shop money -better you grab the bottle today than someone else in 2 months time.

At the end of the day, if this purchase at $26 was the difference in the shop going under then yes i would feel bad. In the end it will make them more eficient.

[prester john]

This post has probably gone much further than MA ever imagined it would, but perhaps I could offer a summary. As Someone once said: "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Interestingly, all the accusers walked away without having thrown a stone; and even the One without sin didn't cast a stone but preached forgiveness.

PJ.

[GraemeG]

I was wondering what was so interesting about the 04 Freedom to prompt such a discussion!
There might be all sorts of reasons why the retailer is flogging wines at these prices.
Coming to the thread fresh, I can see why MA copped bit of flack on the basis of the initial post. The fuller explanation about the state of the shop, the fact that the staff were fully appraised of what was happening at all times - the wines scan correctly - changes the situation I reckon. This is not the equivalent of finding "an '82 Mouton which scans at the '81 price", or Grange ringing up as Koonunga Hill.
It's a lot easier to update the shop's system with special prices than it is to rush around and amend all the "Sale' stickers for the second time.
The shop staff are regarding the scanning system as sacrosanct, presumably under instructions given the state of the 'sale' stock. If the wine scans correctly - ie. the till description matches the bottle, then I think it's fair game.
If there's no question of wrong bottle identity, and all possible pricing information has been drawn to the attnetion of the staff, then what's to be hesitant about?
I reckon Mahmoud's in the clear.
There're any number of reasons why the stock might be so cheap; it could have been the subject of an insurance claim - it's probably being dumped after spending two weeks in a broken down truck in a New York summer...
cheers,
Graeme

[Roscoe]

Your actions haven't made much difference, and I know I am a long way from perfect, but if we want to live in a less imperfect world, we need to recognise that a whole lot of little things can add up to a lot.

I should point out that I'm not trying to say I'm a better person than MA. I actually don't know exactly how I would have reacted in the same situation, because I wasn't there in his shoes. It's at least possible I would have done the same. I have however taken issue with MA's explanations and rationalisations for what he did, because I think they are flawed. I would hope others would do the same to me.

[wiggum]

Just a little snippet from Red Bigots Site -

"From Rodney in Hobart: BWS Aberfeldy are selling Wolf Blass Black Label for $48. 2003 and 2004 (2004 is better, normally $95) on the shelf. RWT Shiraz for $85 - 2002 and 2004 on the shelf. Both prices are for 6 or more. Eaglehawk Inn in Nth Hobart have Moss Wood Cab for $60, 2004 vintage. Some rare bargains for Hobart people."

Must be a steal!!!!

Couldn't help myself.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Wiggum,

Thanks for the support. I was being "opportunistic" in taking different bottles to the register but only in that I really believed that some of the wines might be further discounted, perhaps to cost-price. In the case of the Langmeil I thought the cost price would be around $35-40 and was pleasantly surprised to see it scan at $26. I suppose it was at this point that I might have considered if the price was an error instead of going ahead with the purchase.

As for the shop going under by selling the Langmeil for $26, not in a million years. Its part of a chain that has over 200 shops across British Columbia and Alberta. But for the occasional advertised specials their prices are among the highest in town. On high-end wines a person can expect to pay $5-10 more per bottle, and on the cheapest wines $1-2 more.

This chain has bought out several good independents in the last few years, the owners apparently being offered a price too good to refuse. The wines from these independents have, in many cases, appeared as discounted wines. A number of the sale-priced wines have shop stickers from these ex-independents.

GraemeG, yes, my initial post was, I admit, poorly written. Without fully explaining the disarray in the shop I glibly took delight in having got a fabulous price for an expensive wine. In subsequent posts I tried to explain what went on in the store but I guess the "damage" was done.

The shop was an ordinary one not specializing in premium wines. It was in disarray I think because it was sent an assortment of different wines in varying quantities and they needed to tag each wine, including many single bottles. According to the manager, apparently the third one in 6 months, price decisions were made at head office. On one of my visits to the shop I bought the single remaining bottle of '05 Dryland's Sauvignon Blanc from the clearance section for C$13. The next time I was in the shop I saw the Dryland's back on the regular shelf for $25. And a South African '03 De Toren Fusion V that was in the clearance section for $31 had been moved to the regular section and priced at $55. As to why this happened, your guess is as good as mine.

Anyway, I think all that needs to be said has been said. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Cheers........Mahmoud

[JamieBahrain]

Not entering the debate here. But $26 isn't an unreasonable price to pay for a mediocre Australian flagship wine on sale in an international market.

Currency movements, poor demand and corporate pricing etc.

I shop daily for bargain wines and ship them to Hong Kong which is tax free. If I wanted the Langmeil Freedom here are a couple of competitive prices to start-

1999 Langmeil Winery Shiraz The Freedom Syrah, 1999 $27.99
Bottle
07-Dec-2008
MW Sales

USA (CO): Parker. No minimum order. Delivery charges apply. Langmeil Shiraz The Freedom, 1997 $29.00
Bottle
07-Dec-2008

[Daryl Douglas]

Nice one Jamie. Good to see a bit of a sense of reality in this thread.

[oakboy]

I have seen in the recent weeks some serious discounts in wine by the major's....
My local (sorry Gav) has the 'the factor' 2005 at $60, Jim Barry Armagh $95 and Turkey Flat Cab $24..... Plenty of others on discount, If your drinking the wine, you can never get it cheap enough! and if there's a mess up in the system... well who's fault is that.