I tried some Rhones (Southern, mainly GSM blends, some cinsault) the other night against some (albeit, lesser) Aussie wines, and the Frenchies, in my opinion, were far superior.
This is the first exploration of French wine for me, and I have to say, its left me questioning the Aussie wisdom that says our wines are better at the affordable end of the market. By affordable, I mean AUD20 - AUD50 (my purchasing price). The wines tasted all fell into this price bracket.
In comparison, the Aussies were over oaked and had searing acidity (all wines were young). The French just seemed better balanced.
Is this the general trend? The French were from Domaine De Cassan. Anyone heard of them? How do they compare to other Rhones, and are they typical of the region?
Also, an Alsace riesling also blew me away. Am I turning into an old world wine snob? It bugs me that I like something French...
Affordable Rhone vs Oz?
Don't be bugged. I think I ultimately prefer French too but I can't afford it consistently.
My own (relatively limited) experience has been that French wines that twiddle my knobs are quite a lot more expensive than their Aussie counterparts however, which makes Australian wine a happy 'compromise'. There are quite a lot of Australian wines out there that possess some of the subtlety and savour of the old world profile although most ultimately seem to be brighter and more primary/direct which is not such a bad thing.
As for Rhone wine comparison, I have found Spinifex do some nice stuff for comparatively reasonable $$$ however they still taste more or less Aussie to me. Some of the Victorian wines possess more nuance and subtlety than the good old SA thumpers but not sure about any specific Rhone-esque wines that come to immediate mind, other than generally, speaking, a whole raft of peppery cool(ish) climate shiraz...
My own (relatively limited) experience has been that French wines that twiddle my knobs are quite a lot more expensive than their Aussie counterparts however, which makes Australian wine a happy 'compromise'. There are quite a lot of Australian wines out there that possess some of the subtlety and savour of the old world profile although most ultimately seem to be brighter and more primary/direct which is not such a bad thing.
As for Rhone wine comparison, I have found Spinifex do some nice stuff for comparatively reasonable $$$ however they still taste more or less Aussie to me. Some of the Victorian wines possess more nuance and subtlety than the good old SA thumpers but not sure about any specific Rhone-esque wines that come to immediate mind, other than generally, speaking, a whole raft of peppery cool(ish) climate shiraz...
Cheers
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
I think France has upped it's game a lot. There is a lot of good stuff at nice prices from the Rhone and various parts of southern france not well publicised. The thing I like is that France has more areas, more styles and more winemakers (doing a better job than they were, so much greater consistency).
2005 was a VERY strong vintage in France which helps and 2006 in the Rhone was maybe better than 05 (Southern Rhone especially from what I saw). Bernard Faurie Hermitage ... cheap ... buy ... try ... buy more. Only top-drawer Hermitage I can afford anyway!
I think winemakers in Australia have so much to learn about oak after drinking top Rhones. The oak is there to support, should never be noticeable unless you actually go and look for it ...
http://www.drinkrhone.com/ is a good start as JLL's palate is far from parkered.
Classed growth Bdx is too pricey now but the bargains are maybe Cru Bourgeois and similar in 2005.
Loire reds in great vintages like 2005 are a taste that should be acquired. Great value also.
Bit of a ramble ... basically like all things learn more and seek out good producers. Back to work ...
Jay
2005 was a VERY strong vintage in France which helps and 2006 in the Rhone was maybe better than 05 (Southern Rhone especially from what I saw). Bernard Faurie Hermitage ... cheap ... buy ... try ... buy more. Only top-drawer Hermitage I can afford anyway!
I think winemakers in Australia have so much to learn about oak after drinking top Rhones. The oak is there to support, should never be noticeable unless you actually go and look for it ...
http://www.drinkrhone.com/ is a good start as JLL's palate is far from parkered.
Classed growth Bdx is too pricey now but the bargains are maybe Cru Bourgeois and similar in 2005.
Loire reds in great vintages like 2005 are a taste that should be acquired. Great value also.
Bit of a ramble ... basically like all things learn more and seek out good producers. Back to work ...
Jay
“There are no standards of taste in wine. Each mans own taste is the standard, and a majority vote cannot decide for him or in any slightest degree affect the supremacy of his own standard". Mark Twain.
Cassan is based in the village of Beaumes de Venise (just 8-10 km south-east of Gigondas), and they make a traditional style of wine in the Rhone. Apart from Gigondas (only one, with no new-oaked, 'super premium' version, bless them!), they also make CdR and CdR-Villages wines. Almost all red, with some rose and BdV Muscat. A very good producer, but not in the highest rank. I buy their Gigondas every year, the wine they are most famous for. Their vineyards are almost right up against the Dentelles de Montmirail, a cliffs behind Gigondas, in quite a beautiful and rugged location. Good value too, usually.
I agree about the high acid of many Oz wines. I often notice rather harsh and (I assume) added acid in the Oz GSM and shiraz. Not always, of course, but fairly often. Is adding acid more common in Oz than other wine regions?
To me, a CdR-Villages (Cairanne, Rasteau, etc) is my 'go to' wine for everyday drinking. They have excellent complexity for the price, more so than other other (red) wine region as far as I am concerned. They are 'comfort wine' for me: slightly rustic, in a good way, rich, little if any oak, and surprisingly ageable. I usually leave mine for 5 years: the best can last for double that. Try aging some! Vacqueyras can also be a great QPR wine, as can Lirac.
CdR-Villages are between $20-30 here in Canada - how much are they in Oz? More like $30-40?
I agree about the high acid of many Oz wines. I often notice rather harsh and (I assume) added acid in the Oz GSM and shiraz. Not always, of course, but fairly often. Is adding acid more common in Oz than other wine regions?
To me, a CdR-Villages (Cairanne, Rasteau, etc) is my 'go to' wine for everyday drinking. They have excellent complexity for the price, more so than other other (red) wine region as far as I am concerned. They are 'comfort wine' for me: slightly rustic, in a good way, rich, little if any oak, and surprisingly ageable. I usually leave mine for 5 years: the best can last for double that. Try aging some! Vacqueyras can also be a great QPR wine, as can Lirac.
CdR-Villages are between $20-30 here in Canada - how much are they in Oz? More like $30-40?
ChrisV wrote:JDSJDS wrote:Is adding acid more common in Oz than other wine regions?
Adding acid is against the rules of most French AOC I think. It is certainly pretty common in Oz.
It is not. Adding sugar AND acid is normally against the rules. So you can add sugar OR add acid. They are just two sides of the same coin.
GW
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Tim Smith
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:04 pm
- Location: Barossa Valley South Australia
- Contact:
Affordable Rhone vs Oz?
Good timing: was just about to post a tn for 2004 Guigal CDR (drinking as I type), and this topic had been posted.
First, the tasting note.
Nose:Classic lifted CDR 'not quite ripe/stalky' lift. The palate has the savoury edge I'd like to get in my own wine, but then the palate closes with this great big wall of drying tannin: not sure if its extracted during ferment, or added tannin (it's French,so 'we'd never do that'......). These wines are usually never barrel matured (or oaked in tank for that matter)-see previous note re 'we are French'...Anyway, bit disappointed in this. I've bought this wine for over a decade now, and it's always been great value for money, but this particular vintage, hmm, leads me to...
If you look at the price of this(~$20 retail, and I've seen it up to $27), and lets face it, it is entry level CDR, compared to what I consider most Barossa/McLaren Vale's 'standard' GSM/MGS/SGM whatever blend, for 10 bucks or so you can get wines of a quality I reckon thats more than double in terms of drinking pleasure. It's the age old story about personal taste and all that stuff, but most Oz 'standard' gear isnt drying, the tannins are ripe, and the fruit flavours are fully ripe.
Just one punters thoughts, I'm really keen to hear others comments....
First, the tasting note.
Nose:Classic lifted CDR 'not quite ripe/stalky' lift. The palate has the savoury edge I'd like to get in my own wine, but then the palate closes with this great big wall of drying tannin: not sure if its extracted during ferment, or added tannin (it's French,so 'we'd never do that'......). These wines are usually never barrel matured (or oaked in tank for that matter)-see previous note re 'we are French'...Anyway, bit disappointed in this. I've bought this wine for over a decade now, and it's always been great value for money, but this particular vintage, hmm, leads me to...
If you look at the price of this(~$20 retail, and I've seen it up to $27), and lets face it, it is entry level CDR, compared to what I consider most Barossa/McLaren Vale's 'standard' GSM/MGS/SGM whatever blend, for 10 bucks or so you can get wines of a quality I reckon thats more than double in terms of drinking pleasure. It's the age old story about personal taste and all that stuff, but most Oz 'standard' gear isnt drying, the tannins are ripe, and the fruit flavours are fully ripe.
Just one punters thoughts, I'm really keen to hear others comments....
I concur with both sides. Australia produces ripe fruit forward expressions whereas the Rhone can provide wines that can be evocative; violets, pot pourri, herbs, liqorice, dried flowers, jasmine, gravel, christmas spice etc. All from different regions but I'm only talking about the reds.
I agree that below $30 Australia has the edge but over this and it becomes a different ballgame. That is often the case with imports. Yes, Nine Popes or Bull's Blood are flying the flag for us but at the $50 to $60 mark you can reach some really interesting Southern Rhone village wines in areas like Gigondas and Rasteau. CDP is a little more however. Oh and for what it is worth, Spinifex is yet to float my boat but I'll keep trying.
The northern Rhone is different. We don't emulate them either but we have expressions of Shiraz that can match Hermitage for quality (and price!). As for Cote Rotie, I think whereas there is a lot of Aussie Shiraz-Viognier crud around there are a few producers in Australia that are getting close for a LOT less e.g. Ravensworth. Very little entry-level Cote Rotie!
cheers
Carl
I agree that below $30 Australia has the edge but over this and it becomes a different ballgame. That is often the case with imports. Yes, Nine Popes or Bull's Blood are flying the flag for us but at the $50 to $60 mark you can reach some really interesting Southern Rhone village wines in areas like Gigondas and Rasteau. CDP is a little more however. Oh and for what it is worth, Spinifex is yet to float my boat but I'll keep trying.
The northern Rhone is different. We don't emulate them either but we have expressions of Shiraz that can match Hermitage for quality (and price!). As for Cote Rotie, I think whereas there is a lot of Aussie Shiraz-Viognier crud around there are a few producers in Australia that are getting close for a LOT less e.g. Ravensworth. Very little entry-level Cote Rotie!
cheers
Carl
Bartenders are supposed to have people skills. Or was it people are supposed to have bartending skills?
Thanks for the replies guys. I bought some of the 2005 Domaine de Cassan Giagondas. It really is a beautiful, rich, yet balanced wine. It was fuller bodied than the others in the range, very perfumed nose, more savoury than Oz wines, with an incredibly long finish... until it got killed by other wines!
The Aussies? Well, I dont like to put down product, so its difficult to mention them without feeling I am not giving them a "fair go".
I have previously tried Charles Melton's Nine Popes, and most of the Torbreck range, and yes, they are very nice wines.
As for northern Rhone styles, yet to try them, but if they are superior to Clonakilla and for less dollars, then call me a frog! I need to try the Ravensworth.
I am currently reading Campbell Mattinson's Why The French Hate Us, and he mentions the French cannot produce quality at the lower end as readily as Australia. This recent tasting is contradictory, and just puts my world upside down!
The Aussies? Well, I dont like to put down product, so its difficult to mention them without feeling I am not giving them a "fair go".
I have previously tried Charles Melton's Nine Popes, and most of the Torbreck range, and yes, they are very nice wines.
As for northern Rhone styles, yet to try them, but if they are superior to Clonakilla and for less dollars, then call me a frog! I need to try the Ravensworth.
I am currently reading Campbell Mattinson's Why The French Hate Us, and he mentions the French cannot produce quality at the lower end as readily as Australia. This recent tasting is contradictory, and just puts my world upside down!
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Dave Dewhurst
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:03 pm
- Location: Perth, WA
Lots of interesting comments here. Being a pom, I have a very savoury inclined palate and much prefer cool climate Oz or European style wines. I struggle with Barossa and McLaren Vale, especially with ultra sweet fruit and 'dead' fruit.
I do think the French lower end has massively improved over the last few years, partly forced by the quality of Oz wines at this end of the market in Europe. Problem is by the time they get here, a French or Spanish 3-4 Euro bargain quaffer is twenty bucks. However, get away from the well known areas, and there's some absolutely magic wines, which I will grant are hard to find here. Hunt out Languedoc-Rousillon, Pic-Saint-Loup, various Muscadets, the really un-trendy areas of France, especially the south-west, and you will find gems by the bucket load. I won't go on to Spanish too much as my wife imports them, but again, try and experiment and rippers will be found
Tim - interested in your Guigal 04 CdR comment. I thought the 00 was great, the 03 awful, can you suggest how the 04 was in this context for you? Difficult I know as your palate is not mine but interested in any data points!
Cheers
Dave
I do think the French lower end has massively improved over the last few years, partly forced by the quality of Oz wines at this end of the market in Europe. Problem is by the time they get here, a French or Spanish 3-4 Euro bargain quaffer is twenty bucks. However, get away from the well known areas, and there's some absolutely magic wines, which I will grant are hard to find here. Hunt out Languedoc-Rousillon, Pic-Saint-Loup, various Muscadets, the really un-trendy areas of France, especially the south-west, and you will find gems by the bucket load. I won't go on to Spanish too much as my wife imports them, but again, try and experiment and rippers will be found
Tim - interested in your Guigal 04 CdR comment. I thought the 00 was great, the 03 awful, can you suggest how the 04 was in this context for you? Difficult I know as your palate is not mine but interested in any data points!
Cheers
Dave
Gary W wrote:Why are you not giving them a fair go?? And why can't you name them? You seem to be happy to tar the lot with a big brush without going into specifics.
GW
Wow. Never thought I'd cause this much trouble!
OK, a bit of context. I am an absolute beginner. I am still discovering what I like, and have not sampled the breadth of wines you have Gary (judging by your reviews, you seem to be able to go through more in a week than I will in a year!).
I didnt really want to offend by naming particular wines, also because I simply cant remember the exact wines, so I might be naming an entirely different wine!
On this particular night, I, along with more experienced palates, sampled a breadth of wine that were not totally meant to be compared against one another.
The Domaine de Cassan wines (Giagondas Beames de Venise, Cotes du Ventoux, all 05 I think) were the ONLY GSM+cinsault tasted that night.
We then tasted some Australian Cabernet, Cabernet-Shiraz. They were from Witchmount Cabernet-Shiraz, Crittenden Cabernet. I cant remember the vintages (either one of 04, 05, 06) or the exact wines, but they were in stark contrast to the Cassan wines we tasted immediately prior. One person even commented the Witchmount was a far cry from an outstanding sample he had from an earlier vintage.
So not a direct comparison, but it was an observation agreed by all in attendence.
Dont get me wrong, I love Australian wine. Maybe its just the wines tasted that night. I have not had any French wine in the past, and I have no yardstick as such to compare these Cassan wines to, but they stood out that night. I have sampled and drunk many Australian wines in the past year that I have thoroughly enjoyed, and not over oaked at all. Yet when a work function or the like is on, more often than not, the wine is bloody horrible, and yes, its cheap Australian wine that seems to burn in my mouth.
I am not trying to generalise, and apologies if the post comes across that way. I was just airing my views of wines that night, and I am questioning the conventional wisdom that has so often been told to me (Oz wines are better and French are crap at lower price points). I guess I need to try it all out for myself. That will take me a little while!
In the meantime, Gary, I would really live to hear your opinion on Southern Rhone vs Barossa GSM vs other Aussie region GSM's (not that its my favourite style, but just in context of this post). I read your reviews all the time, and would appreciate your thoughts. I am trying to discover just exactly what styles I like! Also knowing a good Aussie ~$30 GSM to compare against also wouldnt hurt (from your recent reviews, it looks like the Kaesler Avignon or D'Arenbergs Derelict, as Rooview recommends - Torbreck The Steading)!
Not any trouble. Just like specifics if we are discussing over oaked, acidic etc.
Well it's just that there is good wine everywhere if you look for it. I'd say Australia is putting out quality at good value. Recent good vintages have helped lift France at the cheaper end. i.e. 05 Bordeaux and Burgundy.
Southern Rhone (and increasingly Languedoc) are pretty happy hunting grounds for good value French. I'd also try some Spanish wine too. I'd say you would like that and they are relatively inexpensive.
On Australian 'Rhone' blends i.e. GSM, SGM etc. They are a bit different in style to Southern Rhone. Sweeter, often towards confection (bad) but some very good ones too.
Kaesler Avignon and Stonehorse good. Excellent flavour but the alcohol might get you. Hewitson Miss Harry (value), d'Arenberg Original (not the 2005), Charles Melton Nine Popes (with bottle age), Yalumba MGS is great, Grant Burge Holy Trinity (not had one for a while), Rockford Moppa Springs, S.C.Pannell Shiraz Grenache (great) etc
GW
PS. Reckon the 04 Guigal CdR is much better than 2003..which was raspy and baked.
Well it's just that there is good wine everywhere if you look for it. I'd say Australia is putting out quality at good value. Recent good vintages have helped lift France at the cheaper end. i.e. 05 Bordeaux and Burgundy.
Southern Rhone (and increasingly Languedoc) are pretty happy hunting grounds for good value French. I'd also try some Spanish wine too. I'd say you would like that and they are relatively inexpensive.
On Australian 'Rhone' blends i.e. GSM, SGM etc. They are a bit different in style to Southern Rhone. Sweeter, often towards confection (bad) but some very good ones too.
Kaesler Avignon and Stonehorse good. Excellent flavour but the alcohol might get you. Hewitson Miss Harry (value), d'Arenberg Original (not the 2005), Charles Melton Nine Popes (with bottle age), Yalumba MGS is great, Grant Burge Holy Trinity (not had one for a while), Rockford Moppa Springs, S.C.Pannell Shiraz Grenache (great) etc
GW
PS. Reckon the 04 Guigal CdR is much better than 2003..which was raspy and baked.