2000 Grange

[monghead]

You know what's interesting???

Given the bad vintage, and horrendous reviews from the likes of JO, I thought it would be no problem procuring a bottle for a friend's friend as an engagement present (they met in 2000, and aren't really wine drinkers, but always commented that it would be great to have a bottle of Grange on display in their liquor cabinet).

However, when I started ringing around, to my surprise, I couldn't find a bottle!!! Finally, I found one at 60 Darling, but at $600????

Now, I know quantities of this vintage were reduced due to the difficult vintage conditions, but this price is ridiculous isn't it??? Far superior vintages available for alot less!!!

What's more surprising is that the places I had called said that that they had sold out of the 2000 Grange, indicating that people were purchasing them at these prices!!!

I guess Grange has become more a "collectable" than I thought...

Monghead.

btw, I had to tell my mate that I couldn't justifiably procure him the said bottle.....

[ChrisV]

This is a common thing with the bad vintages. Firstly, as you mentioned, the number of bottles produced tends to be down. Then what happens is that in good vintages, serious oenophiles buy it by the case and stash it, so there's plenty left in circulation. Bad vintages tend to be bought and drunk.

[Mike Hawkins]

I tend to disagree Chris. I read of many people buying it purely because it was so limited. They were of the view that the scarcity factor would bring about significant price increases in the future.

If you ever go to Langtons to drop off or pick up wine, its incredible how many people are just dropping off Grange. Its the only wine they know, and they only bought it for investment purposes.

[Jay60A]

There's lots of it in the UK and US at about 120-130 quid including VAT. That's about $300 in australian funny money. I suspect from time to time Tescos will discount 25% from time-to-time so sub $250 may be possible here.

The price of 2000 (or any) Grange in Oz is an artificial bubble created by shipping the rest of it it to UK and US at "normal" prices. Over time it all equals out. You guys get gouged and should stop buying Grange imo. FWE will get the message.

How $300 can be "normal" for a quite average wine is beyond me but you can say the same of top Bdx in poor vintages so that's not really the issue, but the price differential between Aus and UK/US is shall we say "interesting" .

Jay

[Julio G]

I haven't tried it but note that JH thinks that the criticism of the 2000 Grange is not warranted.

[Jay60A]

I haven't tried it but note that JH thinks that the criticism of the 2000 Grange is not warranted.

You might want to have a look at Campbell Mattinson's recent Grange vertical TNs as part of the Penfolds Rewards of Patience. He rated as follows -

2002 94-95
2001 92
2000 87
1999 96
1998 98
1997 86
1996 98
1995 88
1994 94-95
...
1952 93

Apparently my invite was lost in the post . I doubt 2000 is a poor wine, just not up to Grange standards.

[Von Ridler]

The 95 interests me as it has been given a low 88.
JO originally rated it low with an early drinking window but in latest editions has increased the rating significantly and pushed the drinking window right out.

Ron

[Ryan]

I haven't tried it but note that JH thinks that the criticism of the 2000 Grange is not warranted.

You might want to have a look at Campbell Mattinson's recent Grange vertical TNs as part of the Penfolds Rewards of Patience. He rated as follows -

2002 94-95
2001 92
2000 87
1999 96
1998 98
1997 86
1996 98
1995 88
1994 94-95
...
1952 93

Apparently my invite was lost in the post . I doubt 2000 is a poor wine, just not up to Grange standards.

when is the last time someone listened to campell though?

seriously, far too much is put on the reviews these clowns write.

years in retail, various locations, various styles of store, never ONCE heard any customer say "i saw a wine written up by campbell mattison, do you have it?"

same theory applies to max allen, paddy kendlar, huon hooke, jukes, stelzer.. and the list goes on. to a lesser extent parker, jeremy oliver, and robin bradley. i've heard a handful of people discuss them in store, and another two handfuls on top of that about halliday.

the amount of press and exposure that any 1 of the above authors have to get to generate 1 gram of pulling power is so out of proportion.

are you really influenced by what the wine press say?

[Jay60A]

Ryan,

Yes of course. It would be foolish to deny otherwise. I do not get invited to Grange verticals, alas.

Therefore I am influenced by (1) what I can taste, (2) from people on this forum once I can get a feel for their palate, (3) by wine writers who have a consistent palate that matches mine reasonably, and (4) by the random stirrings of CraigNZ ...

How can it be otherwise unless people can taste every wine before buying, or have unlimited dollars so they do not care?

I don't really get your point except you feel that wine critics are all clowns and inferring we are all sheep for listening to them ...

Jay.

[mkcoleman]

Wow I didn;t realise the price difference between good old Blighty and Australia for Grange, just doing a quick Google shows the following prices which seem to mirror the poor ratings of 1997 shown above.

Is the 1997 that bad??

1995 - £130.00 ($293)
1996 - £207.00 ($465)
1997 - £105.00 ($236)
2002 - £182.00 ($409)
[url]
http://www.antique-wine.com/wine_list.p ... nge&page=3[/url]

[ChrisV]

when is the last time someone listened to campell though?

seriously, far too much is put on the reviews these clowns write.

years in retail, various locations, various styles of store, never ONCE heard any customer say "i saw a wine written up by campbell mattison, do you have it?"

And I've never said that in a store, even when the reason I am seeking out a wine is reviews I've read of it. OK, I probably won't buy a wine on the strength of a Mattison review alone, but when multiple critics agree on a wine I am likely to give it a shot. An example is the 2004 Petaluma Coonawarra, which got 96 from Mattison, 97 from Oliver and 94+ from Gary Walsh. With all these guys agreeing I know the wine is going to be good, so I ordered a bottle from a retailer. And it's the same story if I read those reviews when buying a 10 year old wine at auction.

In fact, in the same order from this retailer, I bought a wine almost completely on the strength of a Gary Walsh review - this one. I would like to drink more italian wines, especially sangiovese-based. If there's a better way to decide what to buy (short of becoming an expert in Italian wine) then I haven't seen it.

[Red Bigot]

when is the last time someone listened to campell though?

seriously, far too much is put on the reviews these clowns write.

years in retail, various locations, various styles of store, never ONCE heard any customer say "i saw a wine written up by campbell mattison, do you have it?"

same theory applies to max allen, paddy kendlar, huon hooke, jukes, stelzer.. and the list goes on. to a lesser extent parker, jeremy oliver, and robin bradley. i've heard a handful of people discuss them in store, and another two handfuls on top of that about halliday.

the amount of press and exposure that any 1 of the above authors have to get to generate 1 gram of pulling power is so out of proportion.

are you really influenced by what the wine press say?

Hey Ryan, many of us here take a lot more notice of Campbell than, say, Nicks or VC or Kemenys reviews/scores.

And I don't think including him in the "clown" category will win you any friends either, he used to post a lot here in his early days getting into wine writing.

The people who follow Campbells writings and reviews wouldn't make that sort of approach you mention, they'd do a search on the internet and find out where it was (at a good price), or just look on the shelves because they would know where to look. Same goes for the other "good" reviewers, you don't need to mention the reviewer name when looking for a wine, I can't remember a time when I've ever done that.

Maybe you really have smarter customers than you give them credit for? (Except for the ones that put any credence in the Robin Bradley book).

Apart from that, the whole issue of reviewers and their relevance to wine-buying decisions for individuals has been done to death a few times, I think I can summarise the gist of it by saying that numerous people here find one or other or several of the likes of JH, JO, CM, GW, HH, MA etc of some use and guidance at some times to suggest wines that may be worth trying. Since there are far too many wines for me to try I personally (and selectively based on past experience) use the first 4 of those in particular as assistance in identifying wines I should check out myself for potential purchase.

[Ian S]

Ryan
I have to back Brian on this.
Thank god people don't go into wine shops in Oz and say "I must have this wine 'cos xyz critic gave it 98 points so I must have it". On that path lies the stupidity of Parker's 'points whores' (his words not mine). If you'd read 2-3 reviews and seen a consistent theme that tallied with your palate, then you're not especially like to mention that in passing to a wine shop owner.

The variety of wine critics in Oz is good and if anything Halliday has drifted nicely back into the pack.

In UK and in particular in fine european wines, Broadbent still carries a weight of opinion, albeit he's much less active in self-promotion than others. Plenty of other voices and again the variety is good - oh except for Gluck who's just a grade A tw*t

So I think you're a long way off the mark and if I had to put money on someone who's got the drive to establish himself at the top table of wine writers, then Campbell would be the favourite (and I guess in some folks eyes, he's already there).

wrt Halliday, the cheap shot would be to recognise he's still 'on the payroll' of Coldstream Hills/Southcorp/Fosters, but I'm not making that jibe. Assessing wine is not science, but very individualistic and driven by complex factors. My guess is that Halliday genuinely loves the taste of Grange and even a poor vintage offers him great enjoyment.

On the flip side, Jeremy Oliver seems to work hard to pick out vintage differences and IMO sometimes goes over the top in picking them (and other times not so). I tend to see it more in overly reduced drinking windows.

I guess if it wasn't Grange we wouldn't have so many opinions though

... and wrt to the original post, why not go for a decent Bordeaux from what was a pretty good vintage. Not a lot of point if it's going to be stored in a warm cupboard though - in which case go for a vintage port (again 2000 was good for Port) which should survive less than ideal cellaring.

regards

Ian

[Ratcatcher]

Sorry Ryan, I have about 600 bottles in my cellar and the majority of those have been purchased based on the assessment of various wine writers including Campbell, Halliday and Hooke.

Not that I slavishly follow points or good reviews, there are plenty of highly rated wines that I haven't bought because they are not my style. Rather I pick and choose what I buy based on wines I've had previously and take the reviewers recommendations about whether it's a superior vintage or a very good example of the line because they get to taste the new releases before I can. I also take a lot of note of what of the "amateurs" on these forums say.

I might occasionally seek out a new wine if it gets rave reviews if it sounds like a wine I'd like to see if the fuss is warranted. I can say I've never bought a new wine based on a retail staff members recommendation or a glitzy store display. Your comments may hold true for people buying cases of Omni but not for people buying $15+ bottles. I guess it depends what your particular product is and who your market is.

I recently decided I wanted to experiment with cellaring a few Hunter Shiraz. I did all my research from the reviewers you mention and the various blogs and forums to identify good examples of Hunter Shiraz. I didn't mention this to any of the people I purchased the wines from.

In my experience I've found very few people of any value in the retail sector. (e-tailers excluded of course) All the wine shops I've been into have had staff who are either snobbish wankers, people who recommend every wine in the shop or glorified storemen. There are exceptions of course, but rare. I might mention that I've read a few good reviews about a wine when I am buying it but I'm hardly going to discuss which reviewers and their strengths and weaknesses with the retail staff.

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on being "in the business" as if this gives you some superior status. Being in the business probably gives you an unrealistic view of what the general consumer is like because you assume they all have access to the same tasting and trialling opportunities that you do.

You say are you really influencedby what the wine press say. Of course people are, otherwise a) why is there a wine press and b) people don;t have the time or opportunity to taste every wine going around. We use the wine press to save us wasting time that we don't have.

[dazza1968]

I get alot out of all the different wine books, some can be very contradicting to say the least . JO for instance loves a more delicate style of wine so if I want a wine with elegance and no dead Grapes i will use his book generally , If i want something heavy and full, i use Halliday and Parker . JO loves Cullens, Rockfords ,Parker loves big reds i.e Greenock creek If you have worked out your palate it makes it alot easier on which books to use IMO

For instance JO has not alot on Greenock creek or say Kaesler and tatachilla gets a hammering on big reds yet Haliday has alot of reviews and very favourable ones for these wineries .

JO loves rockford and scores highly 96 or 97 with the basket press yet with Parker his highest rating for rockford is 94 ?

For me i will read both sides of the story first then make up my mind if i want to have a try and then have some in the cellar.

I enjoy them alot and they are wine critics after all.

[Ryan]

In my experience I've found very few people of any value in the retail sector. (e-tailers excluded of course) All the wine shops I've been into have had staff who are either snobbish wankers, people who recommend every wine in the shop or glorified storemen. There are exceptions of course, but rare. I might mention that I've read a few good reviews about a wine when I am buying it but I'm hardly going to discuss which reviewers and their strengths and weaknesses with the retail staff.

Regarding the snobbish wankers, or people who recommend every wine in the shop; have you been shopping at specialist wine stores? I drink too, which involves buying wine too. In Melbourne I can tell you that there are several great independant wine stores, that have terrific knowledgable staff. If you're ever in town, pay Prince a visit, Boccaccio. They all understand that you don't make friends by selling people shit wine, and that people won't come back if you recommend garbage. Go see them and have a chat.

Then of course buy your wine from Auswine.

It's also worth noting that the majority of these guys will refund or look after you should you really dislike something that they wholehartedly endorse. More often than not, the bottle you bring back will be credited by the supplier, and the retailer won't lose out. Don't hesitate if someone sells you garbage, or something not to your taste to bring it back. As a rule of thumb though, don't do it for your own selections.

I work in a store which involves a LOT of handselling. Fortunately it's in an affluent area, where people can afford to, and will experiment. It's also not a terribly high volume shop, which allows me to take time to get to know my customer's palates, likes and dislikes.

I endeavour to get on first name terms with my customers, and keep mental if not written records of who has bought what, what I've recommended, and feedback from prior purchases. I don't handsell wine that I've not tried and/or enjoyed myself. I try to taste everything that comes into this shop, and attend every tasting that I can externally.

I call a spade a spade, if I didn't like something I'll say so and I'll also say why. This is sometimes contradictory to the notes that the powers that be have compiled.

Regarding the Wine media, If someone asks for a specific wine straight off the bat, I'll often enquire as to how they got onto it, wether or not they'd had it before. If we don't stock it, I'll either chase it up, or try to find something similar to sell them.

The most common responses to the "how did you get onto x" question is "I tried it and loved it at a restaurant" by a length over "I had some with friends over the weekend" with "I read about it in epicure" and others bringing up the back of the field.

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on being "in the business" as if this gives you some superior status. Being in the business probably gives you an unrealistic view of what the general consumer is like because you assume they all have access to the same tasting and trialling opportunities that you do.

That is in no way shape or form intended to imply superiority or anything along those lines. It's intended (and also forum policy) to declare involvement in the trade, I think so that readers can decide wether or not anything said is prejudiced.

And I don't think including him in the "clown" category will win you any friends either, he used to post a lot here in his early days getting into wine writing.

The people who follow Campbells writings and reviews wouldn't make that sort of approach you mention, they'd do a search on the internet and find out where it was (at a good price), or just look on the shelves because they would know where to look. Same goes for the other "good" reviewers, you don't need to mention the reviewer name when looking for a wine, I can't remember a time when I've ever done that.

Maybe you really have smarter customers than you give them credit for? (Except for the ones that put any credence in the Robin Bradley book).

I'd also like to point out, that there are far more offensive words than clown in the dictionary. It seems many folks have taken my post as a personal dig at CM, probably due to poor wording on my part.

This wasn't a dig at CM personally, or any wine writer for that matter. I've not yet met Campbell. It was more a dig at the emphasis that is placed on what these wine writers write.

It's all so subjective, and in some cases contradictory. There is not a definitive, standardised, transparent system in place to distinguish how someone came to the score they came to.

Until such time as one evolves, I'm not sure I'll put my hard earned on the counter based on an author's recommendation.

[Gary W]

when is the last time someone listened to campell though?

seriously, far too much is put on the reviews these clowns write.

years in retail, various locations, various styles of store, never ONCE heard any customer say "i saw a wine written up by campbell mattison, do you have it?"

same theory applies to max allen, paddy kendlar, huon hooke, jukes, stelzer.. and the list goes on. to a lesser extent parker, jeremy oliver, and robin bradley. i've heard a handful of people discuss them in store, and another two handfuls on top of that about halliday.

the amount of press and exposure that any 1 of the above authors have to get to generate 1 gram of pulling power is so out of proportion.

are you really influenced by what the wine press say?

Two cannibals sit down to eat a clown.
One cannibal says to the other 'does this taste funny to you?'

Maybe one was a wine writer...

anyway the wine media can and do influence sales of wine (and often heavily) when a 'hot' review goes up. I know this for a fact (from speaking to several wineries) where a review has moved nearly the entire production of a wine in a matter of days. i.e. the phone/email/fax has run HOT...but this is not really the point.

The wine media are 'gatekeepers' and influence the influencers. i.e. sommeliers, good retailers (emphasis on the word good because with 6000+ wines out there it is only a moron retailer who would not use the media to help select what may be a good wine, keep track of trends, offer his/her customers the best wines as there is no way you can taste them all personally). They also influence the people who are 'in the know about wine'. The ones who read reviews and keep up to date. The bloke in the office might know that Brian or Dave is a wine buff and ask what a good wine might be for a gift or a dozen for the cellar (and yes a good retailer will always suggest this too - they are invaluable) but this is another source.

Maybe if you work in the local liquorland and the usual sort of enquiry you field are 'I want a good dry white wine for under $10 please' or 'something a bit sweet and fruity - no more than $15 bucks' then you might not. It is also naive to think that people go waving a print out of a 96 point review at their retailer (but trust me this has happened too).

Calling one of our best and most literate wine writers 'a clown' only reflects badly on you i.e. you are holding a mirror up to your own face.

Cheers
GW

[Red Bigot]

Ryan, if you are waiting for a"definitive, standardised, transparent system in place to distinguish how someone came to the score they came to." then I hope you live to a ripe old age waiting, I'm pretty sure it won't happen in my lifetime, although there may be some more advanced hardware and software in the pipeline that might do the job eventually, it won't be a human reviewer.

Many people have learned how to get value out of the current subjective offerings, that's the way it will continue as far as I can see into the future and there is little to be gained by rejecting the value that is there if you take the time to determine how particular reviewers relate to your own personal preferences.

And I agree with what Garry W says too...

Even me listing a wine on my site has been known to generate a few sales here and there, even if I don't point to a glowing review somewhere, many of my readers have worked out what sort of reds I like and whether they might like them too or just know the pedigree of the wine and are looking for a good price on it. Where I know the track record of a wine, but not the particular vintage, I rely on the reviewers I personally trust to decide whether to list it or not, I couldn't operate without that resource to draw on.

[Ratcatcher]

Ryan, your subsequent post makes a lot more sense.

And no, I haven't shopped personally at a specialist wine store like Prince or Bocaccio.

I'd say your explanation of your location and customer base probably explains your experiences.

I guess there are 3 types of wine buyers. People with plenty of money who can buy whatever they like and it doesn't matter if they don't like it, just go and buy another case of Hill of Grace. Then there are people who are keen on wine but on a budget and want to maximise their drinking pleasure for every $ spent and then the Omni drinkers.

It sounds like a lot of your customers are in the first group probably without the time or inclination to research the wines they are buying. They are happy to get a wine on your recommendation and aren't worried about paying top $ for the wine and service. They are also pretty confident in the knowledge that if they are paying $30 plus they won't get a dud.

The people who read Campbell et al are probably the second group which I fit into. Willing to pay a high price for a really good bottle but only if it's really sure thing and even then we want to pay the lowest price possible. We're not gonna go searching for that wine in a up market shop in an affluent area. We are also ever on the lookout for a great under $25 wine and the initial heads up for that comes from people like Campbell. We don't have the money to buy a single bottle of a $40 wine to take home and try and if we like it go back and buy a case. We are buying 2-3 bottles of $15 - $25 wine and the odd single bottle of $40 plus.

This is why you probably don't encounter many people who refer to Campbell et al.

And without wanting to seem like I'm envious or have an inferiority complex your affluent customers probably wouldn't refer to a wine reviewer, they'd rather pretend they were knowledgeable themselves or prefer to tell their friends that it was recommended to them by their wine merchant rather than reading the magazines like the plebs. Either that or they really are knowledgeable themselves and don't need anyone to assist them in choosing.

Cheers

[TORB]

Ryan,

Your experience, whilst correct for your store may not be representative of the big picture. Next time you run into Anthony from Boccaccio, or Bert from Stratmore, just ask either of those two blokes how much business "jokers" from the wine press generate for them. You may get a big

[danclarke]

Wow. I’m going to just sit back, grab some pop corn and keep watching this.


But…..This all adds up perfectly.



when is the last time someone listened to campell though?

+

seriously, far too much is put on the reviews these clowns write.


=

It's also not a terribly high volume shop

[dazza1968]

POP CORN Sounds like a plan !!!

[Wayno]

Finally, I found one at 60 Darling, but at $600????

Now, I know quantities of this vintage were reduced due to the difficult vintage conditions, but this price is ridiculous isn't it??? Far superior vintages available for alot less!!!

Not a lot less. Less. All Grange prices are ultimately 'ridiculous' but that's the point really...

[kirragc]

You cant back any of them in my opinion.

For a start are you talking about thier latest column or thier latest encyclopeadia. They all change over time as do our own tastes.

ie 6-7 years ago I was in sync with CM then sort of morphed to Parker, then drifted back to Halliday when he started a shift to less obvious wines.


But that was about me not them.

My palate first, then the so called expert opinion. Hell even the wife comes before Halliday

[aj_syrah]

Going back to the first post, the question of why a wine that may be sub-par is priced so highly:

I think this highlights in part what we're all doing here. If wine prices perfectly reflected quality, then a lot of what we talk about on this forum would be moot. Of course there are still stylistic considerations, but apart from that a lot of the info that i seek comes from reviewers I trust, including forumites.

[griff]

My palate first, then the so called expert opinion. Hell even the wife comes before Halliday

And often the significant other's opinion comes before all of them (including one's own palate!)

cheers

Carl

[Ian S]

I'd also like to point out, that there are far more offensive words than clown in the dictionary. It seems many folks have taken my post as a personal dig at CM, probably due to poor wording on my part.

This wasn't a dig at CM personally, or any wine writer for that matter. I've not yet met Campbell. It was more a dig at the emphasis that is placed on what these wine writers write.

A comment of some merit, which with more careful thought may have generated a chorus of agreement. Thanks for what I take as a retraction, it certainly was poor wording on your part and made completely the wrong impression.

There is real danger in calling a spade a spade, when it comes across as a 300 tonne earthmover

I personally see value in wine writers, but recognise that
1) It's easy to get sucked into reading the points and ignoring the TN
2) Differences in palates exist and good/bad bottles exist - sometimes the critic scores an unrepresentative bottle
3) It's easy to get sucked into reading the points and ignoring the TN
4) An individuals own palate (or that of their nearest & dearest) is the most crucial determinant and I don't feel I particularly align to any one critic - at least I've given up bothering whether I do or not
5) It's easy to get sucked into reading the points and ignoring the TN

I see most value from critics in areas where I have little exposure. Having a list of 20 reputable names in an obscure French or Italian appellation is a useful way of digging out bottles to taste, which will at least be representative of the region.

I recognise a critic is expected to score a wine, but the older I get the more I appreciate the simple scale of Broadbent (0-5 stars), which forces you more into reading the note as the nuances are hidden there, not in it being a 85 point wine, rather than a 87 point wine.

Coming back to the people who will quote a critic or source of the recco, I suspect this has more to do with market exposure than any inherent quality or usefulness of a critic. I suspect a recco in The Age might boost sales by a couple of percent, maybe Epicure by a little less. By the time you're down to Campbell, and thence fine amateurs on this forum, you're really down to the hard core enthusiasts having exposure to the comments. It doesn't lessen the value of the comments, but it does affect their impact on the volume of sales the comments generate. At the opposite end of the scale is Robert Parker, who has the ability to convince a large number of people that a jar of whisky & prune jam is the latest must-have cult wine. Now there's a guy with impact

I hope you'll settle in here ok, but it may be worth (at least for the next few posts) hovering over the send button before clicking it. Once a comment is made in an online forum, it's difficult to (metaphorically) get it back - although the edit button in the top right hand corner can help

IRO the 'in the business' tag - you're definitely doing the right thing and it should not be viewed as anything other than correctly applying a forum rule. I'm sure you understand the, at times, delicate position this may put you in. It's at times like that where it's important to step away from the screen and let others have the debate.

[Ratcatcher]

What I always find interesting when wines like the 95, 97 and especially 2000 Grange are given low numerical ratings is that quite often they are rated below the same vintage 707, RWT, St Henri, Magill and even 389.

I can't believe that Penfolds uses lesser quality fruit, oak and winemaking skills to make the Grange than these other wines in these lesser years.

Yet reviewers will always tell you that they rate solely on the wine in the glass not comparing 2000 Grange with 1998 Grange etc.

I can't believe that 2000 Grange is a lesser wine than the best vintage of Windy Peak Chardonnay which occasionally gains a 89 or 90 point rating.

I think one problem is that reviewers (if they must use number ratings) don't use scores over 95 often enough. A great vintage of Grange probably deserves 98 or 99 points but reviewers seem to begrudgingly give 96 or 97 at the most. If they gave the great vintages 99 then a good vintage could be 95 and a lesser vintage 91 or 92. Seems more logical to me than rating a lesser vintage of Grange equal to a good Jacobs Creek Chardonnay.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

just wanted to offer some poss ... you've read the subject line already, right?

Disclaimer: ITB(retail, Sydney)

One of the selling points of Grange is that everyone, even people who don't really know wine, know Grange. It's the Manolo Blahnik, the Gucci, the Rolex, of Oz wines. Without any reference to the actual quality of the wine itself, it's one for the tag fa...ns.

So when someone who doesn't really know wine wants to buy a special bottle of wine for someone, the first thing they think of is....

Often, the recipient is equally inexperienced in the ways of wine, so the fact that someone has bought them a bottle of Grange is what registers, not the fact that it was from a lesser vintage.

Because of this, and the fact that the secondary market for Grange is comparitively flooded, making for a large range of available vintages to coincide with significant years (birth, marriage, job commencement etc) you do end up with comparitively easy sales for what is a very expensive wine.

The other element is the perception of value. The more someone pays for a gift, the more valuable and significant the gift can seem to them. When people hear that 3 bottles of Grange are worth $3000 (admittedly, only in the vicinity of airports), well, things like that do tend to influence perception. Fosters have actually been quite shrewd in the way they have promoted Grange as being our Iconic Wine (tm). I believe there's been a recent thread expanding on the perception of taste and price which should help illustrate this point.

On the issue of reviews - they can help. People may not know who James Halliday is, but if you describe him as Australia's most influential wine writer (and I'd argue he is - more wholesalers quote him than any other, though wether that helps or not is a different matter) it often does elicit a more open response to point scores.

And I hate to say it, but there are some people who simply need to feel that the wine they leave a shop with is one they can have confidence in. They often just want to know that they will not be embaressing themselves by turning up at dinner with a bottle of Balnaves Cab. We (I can call us 'we', right? I belong now, right???) might know it's a handy drop at its price, but there's a lot of unspoken knowledge behind that.

Now, having said all of that, my ideal way to sell a wine is by figuring out what someone will enjoy and then offering something suitable. Most of the time, you can do that with a handful of questions (eg full/medium/light bodied, food match etc). But the fact is, everyone is different. Some customers have no interest in anything they have never heard of, no matter how good or how suitable I may think it to be. They are generally the ones where you do end up Invoking Authority to help them make their minds up (read: close the sale. I'd love to be able to spend an hour with each customer, but sadly, there's never enough time, and sometimes even less).

Ultimately, I want to make sure that whatever someone leaves with will be enjoyable. It's just that the criteria for enjoyment can vary markedly. Authority figures like eminent critics do seem to register more with some people.

So.. yeah. Hope that actually helps some. And if that sounds 'evil' in places, then I may need to reconsider careers...

[Ian S]

Hi,

just wanted to offer some poss ... you've read the subject line already, right?

Disclaimer: ITB(retail, Sydney)

One of the selling points of Grange is that everyone, even people who don't really know wine, know Grange. It's the Manolo Blahnik, the Gucci, the Rolex, of Oz wines. Without any reference to the actual quality of the wine itself, it's one for the tag fa...ns.

So when someone who doesn't really know wine wants to buy a special bottle of wine for someone, the first thing they think of is....

Often, the recipient is equally inexperienced in the ways of wine, so the fact that someone has bought them a bottle of Grange is what registers, not the fact that it was from a lesser vintage.

Because of this, and the fact that the secondary market for Grange is comparitively flooded, making for a large range of available vintages to coincide with significant years (birth, marriage, job commencement etc) you do end up with comparitively easy sales for what is a very expensive wine.

The other element is the perception of value. The more someone pays for a gift, the more valuable and significant the gift can seem to them. When people hear that 3 bottles of Grange are worth $3000 (admittedly, only in the vicinity of airports), well, things like that do tend to influence perception. Fosters have actually been quite shrewd in the way they have promoted Grange as being our Iconic Wine (tm). I believe there's been a recent thread expanding on the perception of taste and price which should help illustrate this point.

On the issue of reviews - they can help. People may not know who James Halliday is, but if you describe him as Australia's most influential wine writer (and I'd argue he is - more wholesalers quote him than any other, though wether that helps or not is a different matter) it often does elicit a more open response to point scores.

And I hate to say it, but there are some people who simply need to feel that the wine they leave a shop with is one they can have confidence in. They often just want to know that they will not be embaressing themselves by turning up at dinner with a bottle of Balnaves Cab. We (I can call us 'we', right? I belong now, right???) might know it's a handy drop at its price, but there's a lot of unspoken knowledge behind that.

Now, having said all of that, my ideal way to sell a wine is by figuring out what someone will enjoy and then offering something suitable. Most of the time, you can do that with a handful of questions (eg full/medium/light bodied, food match etc). But the fact is, everyone is different. Some customers have no interest in anything they have never heard of, no matter how good or how suitable I may think it to be. They are generally the ones where you do end up Invoking Authority to help them make their minds up (read: close the sale. I'd love to be able to spend an hour with each customer, but sadly, there's never enough time, and sometimes even less).

Ultimately, I want to make sure that whatever someone leaves with will be enjoyable. It's just that the criteria for enjoyment can vary markedly. Authority figures like eminent critics do seem to register more with some people.

So.. yeah. Hope that actually helps some. And if that sounds 'evil' in places, then I may need to reconsider careers...

NOC
Well-written and equally well-considered post - a fine 1st post to the forum.

regards

Ian