Shiraz Viognier, This is mix of Red wine and White wine?

[Jay]

Hi every one,

I'm newbie here and just start to learn about wine.

I saw Shiraz Viognier blend so many brands and just wonder
1. This mix of Red and White, they mix since grape or just mix when it is Wine?
2. Except of Shiraz Viognier, any blend else that mix between Red and White like this?

Thank you.
Jay.

[Alex F]

For question 1, they do both is what I believe.

Sometimes they mature it together in barrels, called cofermentation.

Other times they mix once it is a finished product.

I believe Torbreck is a good example of this. The Descendant and Run Rig are both treated differently.

I think Peter Lehmann makes a Shiraz Muscadelle? I think there are also a few GSM blends with Viognier, maybe some cabernet with viognier.

Sketchy post I know, I bet someone more knowledgeable will correct my errors.

[Craig(NZ)]

the classic chardonnay and pinot noir??

[Jay]

Hi Alex, Thank you for your answer, so very fast.


I've one more question

3. First time I knew this is mix of White and Red, I thought the color should be soft red or pink, but what I saw, the colour is still pretty Red, could you tell me why? or because they just have a little bit of Viognier to blend with.
( Sorry I don't have bottle to see the mixture ratio )

Thank you.
Jay

[GraemeG]

Jay,
If the shiraz and the viognier are blended together after fermentation, then there's almost certainly only 2-3% of white wine there, so you'll hardly see a colour change.
If they co-ferment the grapes, then you might expect the viognier to make up to 5%, 8% even, but because it's sitting in the vat with the red skins, that's where the colour will come from...
regards,
Graeme

[cuttlefish]

I thought I'd heard of red wine makers throwing all the skins and stuff left after crushing white grapes into their red wine ferments. Does that count ?
Also, did not someone in Australia recently produce some red with a touch of riesling in it ?

[Anonymous]

There isn't any other red grape and white grape varities blended together like this in a mainstream style to my knowledge?

In the Rhone area of France it's quite common to blend Shiraz with either Marsanne or Rousanne (or both)

[chuckles]

Also, did not someone in Australia recently produce some red with a touch of riesling in it ?

I would really love to know who is doing this, REALLY!

[trev]

I believe Red Edge's 2002 Jacksons had riesling in it. Very strange.

[Tim Smith]

organic chemistry in 50 words or less; viognier skins (only the skins, not the juice) contain catechin, one of the magic ingredients that stabilise colour, but not necessarily deepen it. shiraz viognier wines theoretically should have better colour stability with age, as a result of the colour pigments being stabilised by the catechin..thats the theory... but..how would anybody know how much viognier to add to a red wine before it's even made? me, if i want dried apricots, I'll go to the health food shop....
this supposed 'new breakthrough' technology was discovered by the italians, not the french in Cote Rotie as most people would believe. a lot of wines made from sangiovese have been noted to have better colour stability with age. these same sangiovese vineyards had trebbiano interplanted in them which has been measured as having the most catechin of any grape variety... to believe the catechin theory, you need to ferment the wines as fresh grapes, not wine, as the catechin is in the skin only..adding viognier wine to finished wines can only (argueably) add aromatics, technically. and adding viognier grapes, when fermenting, can only add that characteristic 'slime'...
sorry to waffle on about this, but it's my pet hate-a lot of hype around something thats got a little bit of science behind it, but the outcome is questionable...
i look forward to arguement to the contrary by the pro-shiraz viognier brigade....

[GraemeG]

Tim's drawn attention to the fact that threre are probably a number of Old World appellations which permit (perhaps not 'force' any longer) certain white grapes to be fixed with red - chianti was one, chateauneuf-du-pape another...
cheers,
Graeme

[Bick]

First time I knew this is mix of White and Red, I thought the color should be soft red or pink, but what I saw, the colour is still pretty Red, could you tell me why? or because they just have a little bit of Viognier to blend with.
( Sorry I don't have bottle to see the mixture ratio )

The bottle probably wouldn't tell you anyway, Jay. To be labelled with a grape variety on the label I believe it has to be comprised of at least 5% of that variety's juice (in Australia). There will be Australian shiraz out there with less than 5% and you wont know there's any from what's written on the bottle.

In France, northern Rhone syrah blends may have as much as 20% viognier, I understand, but the French labelling system doesn't mention grapes at all (except in Alsace) so its it quite tough to find out.

[n4sir]

Also, did not someone in Australia recently produce some red with a touch of riesling in it ?

I would really love to know who is doing this, REALLY!

I don't think I've heard of anyone doing this recently, but I thought I read that Peter Lehmann did it many years ago (along with a bit of Pinot and other odd things never mentioned on the label). I guess now they've got just the Shiraz Muscadelle to concentrate on.

Cheers,
Ian

[Wizz]

Also, did not someone in Australia recently produce some red with a touch of riesling in it ?

I would really love to know who is doing this, REALLY!

I don't think I've heard of anyone doing this recently, but I thought I read that Peter Lehmann did it many years ago (along with a bit of Pinot and other odd things never mentioned on the label). I guess now they've got just the Shiraz Muscadelle to concentrate on.

Cheers,
Ian

It was Red Edge in Heathcote - the Jacksons Vineyard Shiraz Riesling. The one I tried 4 or 5 years ago was hideous.

[griff]

Hmmm....lost the reply I tried to post yesterday and Graeme beat me to the punch

Chateauneuf-du-pape blends have 5 (give or take 1) white grape varieties of the 13 varieties total allowed in the red wine blend. Having said that, the usage of these has declined in recent years. Not many wineries use all 13 anymore and I can only think of one off the top of my head (Beaurenard).

cheers

Carl

[SueNZ]

2. Except of Shiraz Viognier, any blend else that mix between Red and White like this?

Drouhin Clos des Mouche Rouge - Pinot Gris is co-fermented with Pinot Noir.

[Furuhata]

Also, did not someone in Australia recently produce some red with a touch of riesling in it ?

I would really love to know who is doing this, REALLY!

I don't think I've heard of anyone doing this recently, but I thought I read that Peter Lehmann did it many years ago (along with a bit of Pinot and other odd things never mentioned on the label). I guess now they've got just the Shiraz Muscadelle to concentrate on.

Cheers,
Ian

The Red Edge "Degree" Shiraz 2005 (Heathcote) contains 85% shiraz, 12% mourvedre, and 3% riesling. I found it an excellent wine for around $23.

Regards, Furuhata.

[cuttlefish]

Also, did not someone in Australia recently produce some red with a touch of riesling in it ?

I would really love to know who is doing this, REALLY!

I don't think I've heard of anyone doing this recently, but I thought I read that Peter Lehmann did it many years ago (along with a bit of Pinot and other odd things never mentioned on the label). I guess now they've got just the Shiraz Muscadelle to concentrate on.

Cheers,
Ian

The Red Edge "Degree" Shiraz 2005 (Heathcote) contains 85% shiraz, 12% mourvedre, and 3% riesling. I found it an excellent wine for around $23.

Regards, Furuhata.

Gee, it's interesting isn't it. I'd hazard a guess and say that this addition of small amounts of unlikely "other varieties" happens more than we know.

I once questioned one of the winemakers from Shaw and Smith about the addition of viognier to their shiraz. My question being why add viognier ? Is it to add something to a shiraz which is not up to scratch ?
He replied that there was nothing "wrong" with the shiraz fruit, and that he was aiming to achieve a certain "style" of wine. I can see his point, I suppose. I (for no real reason) don't go after SV blends. I have almost none in my cellar, but then who's to say there aren't bottles of shiraz in my cellar that don't contain something else ???
Maybe I'll just leave all that to the winemakers and content myself with enjoying the fruits of their labours regardless.

[GravyMaker]

First time I knew this is mix of White and Red, I thought the color should be soft red or pink, but what I saw, the colour is still pretty Red, could you tell me why? or because they just have a little bit of Viognier to blend with.
( Sorry I don't have bottle to see the mixture ratio )

The bottle probably wouldn't tell you anyway, Jay. To be labelled with a grape variety on the label I believe it has to be comprised of at least 5% of that variety's juice (in Australia). There will be Australian shiraz out there with less than 5% and you wont know there's any from what's written on the bottle.

I think (and I am prepared to be shot down in flames by those more knowledgable) that winemakers are allowed up to 15% of other varieties before that have to mention it on the label....

Can anyone confirm or deny?

[Michael Sinclair]

You are correct - I think the point is that you can't say a wine is a Cab Merlot if there is less than 5% Merlot in the blend. You could only call it a straight Cab.

The point being that often the Viognier component is tiny (less than 5%) but some producers would still want to call their wine a Shiraz Viognier even though the rules won't let them...

[Michael Sinclair]

And to really throw a cat among the pigeons,

at the inaugural Shiraz Alliance Charlie Melton showed a Shiraz / Riesling. His point was that one of his old growers gives him everything in one hit (from memory) so that is what gets crushed.

Interestingly that this also fits this topic - He also cracked the entire room up by saying he liked Viognier like some people like beetroot.

(Needless to say you probably won't see a Melton SV in the near future.)

[Jay]

Thank you for everyone,
I've gain my knowledge a lot from every message.


Warm welcome.

[Jay]

I just saw the Article about Shiraz/Viognier in The Age today with Title "Dash of White"

You can see in The Age website

news/Epicure/Dash-of-white/2005/03/28/1111862289150.html

FYI.
Jay.

[Wayno]

You are correct - I think the point is that you can't say a wine is a Cab Merlot if there is less than 5% Merlot in the blend. You could only call it a straight Cab.

The point being that often the Viognier component is tiny (less than 5%) but some producers would still want to call their wine a Shiraz Viognier even though the rules won't let them...

I could of course be wrong but my understanding is:

- over 15% and you have to name it
- under 15% you don't have to name it but can choose to regardless of amount (haven't heard of the 5% rule). I could easily stand corrected of course.

If so, many Shiraz Viogniers would be illegally labelled.

There are a fair few 'straight' Shiraz wines that have Viognier in them and I find it interesting that Halliday's book (for example) has a 'Shiraz Viognier' list as well as a 'Shiraz' list whereas some of the wines in the Shiraz list could well be in the Shiraz Viognier list (by composition) and vice versa.

In my opinion, labelling a wine Shiraz Viognier is first and foremost a marketing decision (or at least a decision concerning the winemaker's philosophy) as I very much doubt there are any SVs with Viogner over 15%.

[Bick]

... my understanding is:
- over 15% and you have to name it
- under 15% you don't have to name it but can choose to regardless of amount (haven't heard of the 5% rule). I could easily stand corrected of course.

Australian Government Wine Law states that you have to list all varieties used in a wine, with the following exceptions:

(i) it may refer to only one variety if the blend contains 85% of grapes of that variety (same in New Zealand)

(ii) if a blend consists of at least 85% of a blend of no more than three varieties and, the wine includes at least 20% of each of those varieties, those varieties (up to three) must be named and must be presented in descending order of their proportions in the blend

(iii) if a wine is a blend of no more than five varieties and the wine includes at least 5% of each of those varieties, the wine may be described and presented as being of those particular varieties. All of those varieties (up to five) must be named and must be presented in descending order of their proportions in the blend.

...Hmm. Make sense of that if you can. Somewhere in there is both the 15% rule and the minimum 5% rule. Part (ii) is pretty confusing - I've given up trying to work it out.

[Murray]

... my understanding is:
- over 15% and you have to name it
- under 15% you don't have to name it but can choose to regardless of amount (haven't heard of the 5% rule). I could easily stand corrected of course.

Australian Government Wine Law states that you have to list all varieties used in a wine, with the following exceptions:

(i) it may refer to only one variety if the blend contains 85% of grapes of that variety (same in New Zealand)

(ii) if a blend consists of at least 85% of a blend of no more than three varieties and, the wine includes at least 20% of each of those varieties, those varieties (up to three) must be named and must be presented in descending order of their proportions in the blend

(iii) if a wine is a blend of no more than five varieties and the wine includes at least 5% of each of those varieties, the wine may be described and presented as being of those particular varieties. All of those varieties (up to five) must be named and must be presented in descending order of their proportions in the blend.

...Hmm. Make sense of that if you can. Somewhere in there is both the 15% rule and the minimum 5% rule. Part (ii) is pretty confusing - I've given up trying to work it out.

There's further considerations

- You don't have to name varieties at all if you don't want to (Think Yarra Yering No. 1)

- However if you do name them what Bick says applies:
- Further was my understanding that it's 75% in NZ for wine labelled to be sold domestically there. However for export they have to satisfy local laws.

[Bick]

There's further considerations
- You don't have to name varieties at all if you don't want to (Think Yarra Yering No. 1)

Not in the title of the wine, but perhaps on the label somewhere ?

Further was my understanding that it's 75% in NZ for wine labelled to be sold domestically there. However for export they have to satisfy local laws.

It think it may have gone up to 85% earlier this year even locally to bring NZ into line with many countries who use an 85% rule. This applies to source as well, so Martinborough labelled wine has to be 85% fruit from Martinborough, etc.

[Murray]

There's further considerations
- You don't have to name varieties at all if you don't want to (Think Yarra Yering No. 1)

Not in the title of the wine, but perhaps on the label somewhere ?

Nope

Under the Label Claim section of Australian Wine Law:

“Label claim” means a claim about a wine product’s vintage, variety or geographical indication made on a wine label, or in a commercial document or an advertisement.

There is no mandatory requirement to place any such information on a label, but if a claim is made, whether intentionally or implied, it must be true and conform to AWBC Regulations 18-22 and Section 39C of the AWBC Act.

In other words you don't have to declare Variety, Region or Vintage ona label, but if you do, what you say must conform to the law (eg to 85% rules etc).

There are a number of Mandatory inclusions for the label including Alcohol, Allergens Address, Country of Origin, Standard Drink statement, Volume and, er, Best Before*.

* but this only applies where appropriate such as Bag In Box.