Anyone noted Grays selling failed bottles of Grange?
I thought to myself, why would anyone pay a dollar for an undrinkable bottle of Grange, however someone or some people were paying plenty for the failed bottles during the recent Grays auction!
Now I've just seen bottles of Grange with low to mid to high shoulders popping up at Ebay with waxed capsules (either missing or damaged original capsules).
Looks like someone is trying to capitalise on the situation.
Grays - Heritage - Ebay - waxed capsules of failed grange!
It's a pretty serious accusation, but sadly this doesn't really surprise me either - in the last six months I've seen quite a few bottles selling at various auctions lately (not just the major wine auction houses) popping up on eBay a week later. I was more than a little curious about who would buy the failed Granges at Gray's, and what their possible motives would be. Buyers beware.
Speaking of which, it's interesting to see now Gray's latest lots include bottles that have failed Clinics that are not marked as such this time - these bottles have been recorked with no capsules and typically have the 'white dot of death' on the front of the bottle that confirm it's been tested and found to be a dud. I wonder if the gang at Penfolds will be impressed with this?
Cheers,
Ian
Ps. If it can actually be proven that a vendor has taken bottles of Grange that have failed Clinics, recapsuled them & sold them as untested, could they possibly get into a bit of legal trouble with Penfolds and/or the Liquor Licencing Board, etc?
Speaking of which, it's interesting to see now Gray's latest lots include bottles that have failed Clinics that are not marked as such this time - these bottles have been recorked with no capsules and typically have the 'white dot of death' on the front of the bottle that confirm it's been tested and found to be a dud. I wonder if the gang at Penfolds will be impressed with this?
Cheers,
Ian
Ps. If it can actually be proven that a vendor has taken bottles of Grange that have failed Clinics, recapsuled them & sold them as untested, could they possibly get into a bit of legal trouble with Penfolds and/or the Liquor Licencing Board, etc?
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.
-
Anonymous
There are currently a couple bottles of Grange for sale on Ebay (by a person apparently located SA) with low-mid shoulders which I believe were recently sold thru a SA auction house. The EBAY seller must have had waxed capsules put in place which were not there prior.
Earlier this year I purchased thru an SA auction house a 70's Grange with a waxed capsule without inspecting the bottle prior to my bid. Upon picking up the bottle I noticed that the cork was not original (ie. a new cork was put in the bottle and waxed capsule put in place). Also, I could easily see thru the wine in the neck (colour was a very light brown) which was very different to every other bottle or Grange I have/had (corked or not). I was convinced that the wine was very likely corked and was probably diluted with some liquid to bring it to a fill level into the neck. The auction house was kind enough to refund the full value of this purchase however their response in the matter was in my opinion lacking.
I would like to see the auction houses not sell expensive wines with non original waxed capsules as a way to deter the devious sellers.
Buyer beware especially of expensive wines with waxed capsules!
Earlier this year I purchased thru an SA auction house a 70's Grange with a waxed capsule without inspecting the bottle prior to my bid. Upon picking up the bottle I noticed that the cork was not original (ie. a new cork was put in the bottle and waxed capsule put in place). Also, I could easily see thru the wine in the neck (colour was a very light brown) which was very different to every other bottle or Grange I have/had (corked or not). I was convinced that the wine was very likely corked and was probably diluted with some liquid to bring it to a fill level into the neck. The auction house was kind enough to refund the full value of this purchase however their response in the matter was in my opinion lacking.
I would like to see the auction houses not sell expensive wines with non original waxed capsules as a way to deter the devious sellers.
Buyer beware especially of expensive wines with waxed capsules!
beats me why any reputable auction house would knowingly sell wines which are patently defective (duds), however, at least Grays clearly state that these are "failed" Granges.
Given the relatively high prices paid for such, the only credible justification, cynical though it is, is that some unscrupulous entreprenours are basically buying the bottle/label (usually 1950's or 1960's), topping them up, recorking/recapsuling them, then onselling as the genuine article, usually for $1000++.
Why the hell else would someone pay, say, $200, for a bottle of wine that is at low shoulder or worse, and has been thru the Penfolds clinic and FAILED??
Given the relatively high prices paid for such, the only credible justification, cynical though it is, is that some unscrupulous entreprenours are basically buying the bottle/label (usually 1950's or 1960's), topping them up, recorking/recapsuling them, then onselling as the genuine article, usually for $1000++.
Why the hell else would someone pay, say, $200, for a bottle of wine that is at low shoulder or worse, and has been thru the Penfolds clinic and FAILED??
Ian S wrote:Mark S wrote:however, at least Grays clearly state that these are "failed" Granges.
If I read Ian's post correctly, this is no longer the case
There's a number of bottles at the end from lot 61 onwards that have been flagged as Penfolds Clinic failures, but there are also a few further up which haven't (if the bottles pictured are the ones for sale) - specifically lots 7 & 14, and while lot 6 doesn't have the 'white dot of death' it looks a bit suspect too.
Cheers,
Ian
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.
I may be way out of line here in my understanding and reading between the lines...Grange is out of my price-range so I don't have any experience dealing with clinic bottles.
That said, it strikes me that the clinic approach to marking examined bottles is flawed.
Bottle passes inspection... a label is added to that effect is added to the back of the bottle. Great. It is in the owners interest to keep that label intact.
Bottle fails inspection. They recork it and white dot it. From what I see that is just another label. Except that for the unscrupulous owner it is in their interest to remove that label. Once gone, there is no real way to be sure that it has failed.
There must be a better way to indelibly mark the bottle as having failed. Why not do one of:
Etch the bottle as failed.
Mark the original label as failed.
Recork with a cork marked as failed.
That said, it strikes me that the clinic approach to marking examined bottles is flawed.
Bottle passes inspection... a label is added to that effect is added to the back of the bottle. Great. It is in the owners interest to keep that label intact.
Bottle fails inspection. They recork it and white dot it. From what I see that is just another label. Except that for the unscrupulous owner it is in their interest to remove that label. Once gone, there is no real way to be sure that it has failed.
There must be a better way to indelibly mark the bottle as having failed. Why not do one of:
Etch the bottle as failed.
Mark the original label as failed.
Recork with a cork marked as failed.
David G
"I'm going to die with a twinkle in my eye cause I sung songs, spun stories, loved, laughed and drank wine"
"I'm going to die with a twinkle in my eye cause I sung songs, spun stories, loved, laughed and drank wine"
davidg wrote:I may be way out of line here in my understanding and reading between the lines...Grange is out of my price-range so I don't have any experience dealing with clinic bottles.
That said, it strikes me that the clinic approach to marking examined bottles is flawed.
Bottle passes inspection... a label is added to that effect is added to the back of the bottle. Great. It is in the owners interest to keep that label intact.
Bottle fails inspection. They recork it and white dot it. From what I see that is just another label. Except that for the unscrupulous owner it is in their interest to remove that label. Once gone, there is no real way to be sure that it has failed.
There must be a better way to indelibly mark the bottle as having failed. Why not do one of:
Etch the bottle as failed.
Mark the original label as failed.
Recork with a cork marked as failed.
They actually do things along this line David, it's just a case of people being aware of them and knowing what to look for:
Bottles that have passed clinics are topped up and stopped with a new Penfolds branded cork and capsule, and have a signed clinic label indicating they've passed on the back. If a bottle passes but is in an advanced state they will note an adjusted drinking window on the clinic label.
Bottles that have failed clinics are not topped up, stopped with an unbranded cork and not re-capsuled. The white dot is an internal indicator to say it's a failure and will not be refilled, recapsuled or given a clinic label. I think bottles with fill levels below the shoulder are not opened/assessed and automatically failed.
The problem is when dodgy people try to work around these measures and people unaware of these signs get sucked in. The missing capsules and unbranded corks are the biggest clues, and if someone tries to hide this by waxing over the area people should be very cautious (as has already been mentioned).
Cheers,
Ian
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.
Its sad then that the Penfolds Clinics page - which describes what they do for a a "passed" wine does not equally describe what they do with a "failed" wine.
If one was concerned, might one not go straight to the horses mouth (so to speak) to alleviate those concerns.
EDIT
Ok it IS there. In the Terms and Conditions in the Clinic Application Form -- but that isn't exactly advertising the fact particularly well.
If one was concerned, might one not go straight to the horses mouth (so to speak) to alleviate those concerns.
EDIT
Ok it IS there. In the Terms and Conditions in the Clinic Application Form -- but that isn't exactly advertising the fact particularly well.
David G
"I'm going to die with a twinkle in my eye cause I sung songs, spun stories, loved, laughed and drank wine"
"I'm going to die with a twinkle in my eye cause I sung songs, spun stories, loved, laughed and drank wine"
There was a 1961 Grange on Ebay today from a guy in Adelaide for $300.
I told my brother about it as he wants one for his birth year so he spoke to the bloke via phone who said he bought it from a place that went broke at auction. No points for guessing who that was??
It had a white sticker on the front and was at a low level. My brother dropped his interest but I see some bloke bought it. Poor bugger.
I told my brother about it as he wants one for his birth year so he spoke to the bloke via phone who said he bought it from a place that went broke at auction. No points for guessing who that was??
It had a white sticker on the front and was at a low level. My brother dropped his interest but I see some bloke bought it. Poor bugger.
"A woman drove me to drink, and I'll be a son of a gun but I never even wrote to thank her" WC Fields
n4sir wrote:Bottles that have passed clinics are topped up and stopped with a new Penfolds branded cork and capsule, and have a signed clinic label indicating they've passed on the back. If a bottle passes but is in an advanced state they will note an adjusted drinking window on the clinic label.
** They do what now?!? You're telling me that after a bottle of Grange has passed the clinic inspection, they reseal it with a different cork?
What's the estimated rate of ruined wine bottles these days due to TCA? I would think 10% a conservative estimate. That means that if I get my bottle of Grange (I don't actually have a bottle of Grange) checked 10 times, there's a ~70% chance I'll end up with a corked bottle.
Sounds like madness to me.
Stuart
beef wrote:n4sir wrote:Bottles that have passed clinics are topped up and stopped with a new Penfolds branded cork and capsule, and have a signed clinic label indicating they've passed on the back. If a bottle passes but is in an advanced state they will note an adjusted drinking window on the clinic label.
** They do what now?!? You're telling me that after a bottle of Grange has passed the clinic inspection, they reseal it with a different cork?
What's the estimated rate of ruined wine bottles these days due to TCA? I would think 10% a conservative estimate. That means that if I get my bottle of Grange (I don't actually have a bottle of Grange) checked 10 times, there's a ~70% chance I'll end up with a corked bottle.
Sounds like madness to me.
Stuart
There are a few things to consider here Stuart which would explain it's not quite as nutty as you suggest:
Firstly bottles 15 years or older are only opened and tested at clinics that have a fill level blow the base of the neck and/or have a leaking capsule. In other words, the original cork is well on the way out (if not already shot) - if a bottle is fine, don't bother taking it along as it won't be opened, examined or given a clinic label.
Unfortunately I assume screwcap isn't an option because it would involve transferring the wine to a completely new bottle. The risk of TCA of the new cork would be about the same as the first time around (about 10% give or take), and in the last year or so I'd say it's probably less due to better internal testing of cork batches. The jury is still out on Diam cork, but if it does prove to be completely TCA free this could be a much better option.
Once a bottle has been through a wine clinic basically that's it, as they say they will refuse to re-examine a wine that has been through the system (although I think they will make an exception for something pretty rare).
Interestingly though a few recapsuled bottles began to show up at the Adelaide clinic last year, making some of the staff suspect they had passed through previous clinics but have had the labels removed - the reasons why could be it started leaking again, or the label had an adjusted (reduced) drinking window on it which would have lessened its auction value so it was removed prior to sale, only for the new owner to show up at another clinic.
Ultimately though it really depends on the owner and how long they expect to keep their bottle that's leaking - if they want to keep it for some occasion in years to come then the small risk of a dud cork at a clinic couldn't be any worse than letting it leak. If they plan to drink it soon, then they are better off just opening the thing when the time comes.
Cheers,
Ian
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.