High alcohol content

[Mike]

At a tasting last night I was treated to the potent wines of Mollydooker.

The Maitre'D Cabernet clocks in at 15.5% which is probably the highest alcohol content in any wine I have tried.
Despite this, it was hard to detect the higher alcohol on the palate.

It was noted that the high end wines in the Mollydooker range, the Enchanted Path Shiraz/Cabernet and the Carnival of Love Shiraz are both much higher 18% red wines.

This raises the question, where does wine stop and fortified wine start?

If the Mollydooker wines are produced using recognised winemaking methods does that qualify it to be called wine?

Or is it alcohol content that dictates its classification?

[707]

I assume it becomes fortified when it has spirit added to stop the ferment as opposed to letting it ferment through to dryness although nowadaze the latter may have a higher % alc than the former!

What did you think of the Mollydookers?

[smithy]

I think that red wines over 16.5% alc are technically fortified wines even if no alcohol has been added.

There are several ways of geting the alcohol up there...fermenting it to dryness at 18 is the way we do it, campbell talks abour Reverse Osmosis in his recent article.
Fascinating stuff!

Cheers
Smithy

[Gavin Trott]

At a tasting last night I was treated to the potent wines of Mollydooker.

The Maitre'D Cabernet clocks in at 15.5% which is probably the highest alcohol content in any wine I have tried.
Despite this, it was hard to detect the higher alcohol on the palate.

It was noted that the high end wines in the Mollydooker range, the Enchanted Path Shiraz/Cabernet and the Carnival of Love Shiraz are both much higher 18% red wines.

This raises the question, where does wine stop and fortified wine start?

If the Mollydooker wines are produced using recognised winemaking methods does that qualify it to be called wine?

Or is it alcohol content that dictates its classification?

Firstly

None of the Mollydooker range are 18% or anything like it, high alcohol yes, but 18% no.

Second, fortified wine is just that, wine fortified by adding brandy spirit.

It is a process, not an alcohol quantity as far as I am aware. Of course, fortifying with brandy sprit ensures higher alcohol, usually 18-20 or even 21%, but it is the adding of spirit that 'fortifies' the wine.

At least, this is as I understand it?

Winemakers jump in if I'm mistaken?

[Red Bigot]

From the Australian Wine Industry Fortified Wine Code of Practice

"fortified wine means the product
consisting of wine to which has been
added Australian grape spirit, brandy or
both and the term may be further
qualified by the addition of the name of
a grape variety including inter alia
muscat, tokay, pedro, frontignac,
verdelho, shiraz, etc."

But from a USA source:
"In general, wine taxes can be distinguished based on alcohol content, with tax rates rising with increasing concentrations of alcohol. Wines with high alcohol content (above 15 percent) usually have distilled spirits added and are popularly known as fortified wine. States vary in their treatment of these products. Many States treat them as a separate subcategory, with various definitions and alcohol content ranges. For example, some States define fortified wine as containing both wine and spirits. In some cases, the State definition specifies that the added spirits must be derived from the same fruit used as the basis for the wine (e.g., brandy for grape wine). Some States define fortified wine strictly in terms of its alcohol content—e.g., any wine with an alcohol content over 15 percent—whether or not distilled spirits have been added. Other States have incorporated these fortified wine products into the general definition of wine and have not created a separate definition or subcategory."

So everybody is right, somewhere in the world.

[smithy]

The AWRI site on label law is probably worth a look.
I'll check it out Mon.

And yes....I think I am one of the very few idiots that makes reds at 17-18!!!!!!!!!! COL is 17% from memory
Cheers
Smithy

[Gavin Trott]

8) The AWRI site on label law is probably worth a look.
I'll check it out Mon.

And yes....I think I am one of the very few idiots that makes reds at 17-18!!!!!!!!!! COL is 17% from memory
Cheers
Smithy

COL is 16.5%

[Golf&PinotNut]

I'm pleased that Mollydooker is being consumed in Australia. I thought it was a "US Only" product. Impossible to find here in the states.

[Gavin Trott]

I'm pleased that Mollydooker is being consumed in Australia. I thought it was a "US Only" product. Impossible to find here in the states.

Good retailers here stock it

[Davo]

– fortified wine means the product
consisting of wine to which has been
added Australian grape spirit, brandy or
both and the term may be further
qualified by the addition of the name of
a grape variety including inter alia
muscat, tokay, pedro, frontignac,
verdelho, shiraz, etc.

From the "Australian Wine Industry Fortified Wine Code of Practice" as adopted by Australia and NZ.

And from the AWBC:-

Guide to Wine Law


Fortified Wine
“Fortified wine” is prescribed in Standard 4.5.1. It is not a prescribed name. A fortified wine must contain at least 15% and not more than 22% of alcohol (ethanol at 20°C).

[Davo]

Further to this, from the Australian New Zealand Food Standards Code :-

STANDARD 4.5.1

WINE PRODUCTION REQUIREMENTS


(Australia only)

Purpose

This Standard includes requirements for the production of wine in Australia only.

Table of Provisions

1 Interpretation
2 Application
3 Substances used in production
4 Processing aids
5 Composition
6 Sparkling wine
7 Fortified wine

Schedule Specifications for the Purposes of this Standard

Clauses

1 Interpretation

In this Standard –

brandy means the spirit obtained by the distillation of wine in such a manner as to ensure that the spirit possesses the taste, aroma and other characteristics generally attributed to brandy, in accordance with the requirements set out in the Schedule to this Standard.

fortified wine means the product consisting of wine to which has been added grape spirit, brandy or both.

grape spirit means the spirit obtained from the distillation of wine or the by-products of wine making or the fermented liquor of a mash of dried grapes and contains methanol in a proportion not exceeding 3 g/L at 20˚C of the ethanol content.

sparkling wine means the product consisting of wine that by complete or partial fermentation of contained sugars has become surcharged with carbon dioxide.

wine means the product of the complete or partial fermentation of fresh grapes, or a mixture of that product and products derived solely from grapes.

[Mike]

None of the Mollydooker range are 18% or anything like it, high alcohol yes, but 18% no.

The tasting was blind, we were going on what the tasting master would divulge. His interpretation of the alcohol content was that the Maitre'D was recorded as 15.5% but tasted like 16%, similarly the EP and CoL came across as 18%. How he reached this conclusion I do not know, perhaps from the legs, perhaps from the winemaker with whom he said he had been in communication.

What did you think of the Mollydookers?

I tasted the 2005 Mollydooker Maiter'D. I found it a bit of a blunt instrument. It was all ripe plum and virtually no other notes. All the cabernet boxes were ticked besides the complexity; more time required.
I was at a specific cabernet tasting, the Mollydooker was the last of the batch.

I'm pleased that Mollydooker is being consumed in Australia. I thought it was a "US Only" product. Impossible to find here in the states.

I am in Brighton over in the UK. Apologies for misleading anyone!

fortified wine means the product consisting of wine to which has been added grape spirit, brandy or both.

Thanks for the input, I think that question has been well and truly put to bed.

[n4sir]

None of the Mollydooker range are 18% or anything like it, high alcohol yes, but 18% no.

The tasting was blind, we were going on what the tasting master would divulge. His interpretation of the alcohol content was that the Maitre'D was recorded as 15.5% but tasted like 16%, similarly the EP and CoL came across as 18%. How he reached this conclusion I do not know, perhaps from the legs, perhaps from the winemaker with whom he said he had been in communication.

It could also be a wrong assumption that it's at the upper end of +1.5% of what's on the label - while local wines are allowed that discrepancy, many export wines (depending on the destination) must be within 0.5% of what's on the label, and this is definitely one of those cases.

Cheers,
Ian

[Davo]

His interpretation of the alcohol content was that the Maitre'D was recorded as 15.5% but tasted like 16%,

What a superb palate he must have, to be able to pick a 1/2% difference in etoh.

[Mahmoud Ali]

As a person who likes to cellar wines and enjoys older, mature wines, I am unconvinced by high alcohol, fruit bombs. They may be fun to drink today with a rare steak but what will they be like in 10 or 15 years. Good wine is all about balance, and in the long run I believe that it is those wines with balance that will stand the test of time. As a wine ages many of the components of the wine changes, tannins soften, the fruit diminishes, hopefully to be replaced by greater complexity in both bouquet and palatte, but the alcohol level remains the same. Will the high alcohol wines remain in balance? Many wine writers think not and I am inclined to agree with them.

In the case of Amarone, the rich, potent wines from the Veneto in Italy, the higher alcohol is balanced by the higher extract obtained by drying ripe grapes for about three months, concentrating the flavours and reducing the water content. However, high alcohol wines generally get their alcohol from ever higher grape sugars optained from late harvest over-ripe grapes.

The true test of how these high alcohol wines will come from their cellaring and I have some of them in my cellar. But not many. These days when I see anything over 14-14.5% my eyes glaze over and I look for something else, unless it is an Amarone or a port.

Here is a thought, what is the oldest bottle of "high alcohol" wine that anyone on the board has tasted and how was it faring?

Cheers...............Mahmoud.

[Red Bigot]

Here is a thought, what is the oldest bottle of "high alcohol" wine that anyone on the board has tasted and how was it faring?

Cheers...............Mahmoud.

I've still got a couple of bottles of 1991 Bullers Calliope Shiraz, 16.0%, lat one I had last year was still going strong...

Alcohol is a preservative, as long as the other components are there - fruit, tannins, acid - and relatively balanced there is no reason a high-alcohol wine won't cellar. It's the over-ripe ones with insufficient acid and tannins that fall apart and go flabby after a few years.

[Chuck]

Now that Parker is no longer reviewing Oz wines this fad for hi octane fruit bombs will hopefully disappear just as fast as it appeared. We'll all be better off.

Chuck

[smithy]

My 92 Walla Walla 16.5% was knockout 1 year ago and the Shiraz 15.5% was still red and holding well 6 months ago.

Some gutsy people have staked their reputations they won't live.
Good luck Ar@@@@oles!!!!!!

[Olivier Collin]

As mentioned by many previously, in oenoogical terms one cannot speak of "fortified" wines if there is no addition of alcohol not coming from fermentation. Examples of very high alcohol wines are many among in the DOCG Amarone in Italy, among them Giuseppe Quintarelli sometimes manages to get over 17% alcohol from fermentation.

It should be pointed out that the vast majority of enzymes needed for fermentation stop working at such alcohol levels. In the case of Quintarelli, indigenous enzymes that are very resistant do the job...

By the way, I don't think alcohol percentage is a good way to measure balance or unbalance in a wine. A Médoc tipping the scale at 14.5% will most likely seem much harsher and unbalanced than a fine old vine Chateauneuf-du-Pape (a couple of nights ago we had Henri Bonneau's Reserve des Celestins 1995 which was increadibly balanced despite its over 15% alcohol level).

[D.I]

It should be pointed out that the vast majority of enzymes needed for fermentation stop working at such alcohol levels. In the case of Quintarelli, indigenous enzymes that are very resistant do the job...

Hi collin
Are you sure that enzymes has problem works at very high alcohol level, I think it’s the yeast that got that problem.
Any way some of the yeast that are using winemakers can easily ferment 16% - 17% alcohol (1118, PDM, and more) some other yeast that are not common for wine making can still ferment at 25% alcohol.
I do not think that the research need to focus on how to rich dryness at 16% alcohol, I think the main issue is how to ferment 16 Be must and rich 13.5 % alcohol in the end with out any reduction in wine quality.[/quote]

[Olivier Collin]

Sorry, I did mean yeast in my text... not enzymes as written. Indigenous enzymes makes no sense...