We're in for a hot spell here in Adelaide so last night I brought up four different 2002 wines from the cellar to consume in the next few days in airconditioned comfort.
The first was a $40 Barossa Shiraz, couldn't make up my mind if it was corked at first, thought it may just be my palate but after 15 minutes of airing in the glass decided it was corked.
Onto a $30 McLaren Vale Shiraz, almost the same character as the first wine, maybe it is my palate tonight? Surely I can't get two corkies in a row?
Another 15 minutes contemplation then I thought bugger it and headed down to the cellar to grab a second bottle of the McLaren Vale. If this was the same I'd have three bottles opened!
The replacement opened beautifully confirming the first two were low level TCA taint. I'd much prefer they were really stinky rather than subtle taint.
I reckon I'm still seeing about 10% and maybe a few more that are slipping past me because they aren't stinky enough and just dulled off.
Now what do you guys think - amongst bottles still closed with cork, is there any less cork taint now than say five years ago when screw caps started to take hold?
TCA taint rate any better?
TCA taint rate any better?
Cheers - Steve
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!
Without keeping detailed records (hello Ric?) it's hard to say exactly. Especially as I've not been drinking that many cork-sealed wines made in the last few years. Until last week's corked 2002 Mount Mary Chardonnay* (grrr) I reckon I'd been over 6 months since the previous bottle (a 99 Tyrrell's semillon) from the home cellar.
Of course, most of the everyday drinkers are under screwcap these days, although they're only around 25% of the cellar. I'm far less tolerant of shoddy corks nowadays, so I'm sure I'll remember the failures from recently-bottled wines.
*The cork from the MM looked magnificent - they've always claimed to spare no expense with their corks, and this was true to form - but it had TCA anyway...
cheers,
Graeme
Of course, most of the everyday drinkers are under screwcap these days, although they're only around 25% of the cellar. I'm far less tolerant of shoddy corks nowadays, so I'm sure I'll remember the failures from recently-bottled wines.
*The cork from the MM looked magnificent - they've always claimed to spare no expense with their corks, and this was true to form - but it had TCA anyway...
cheers,
Graeme
I'm mostly drinking 7-10 yo reds and new releases for tasting, many of which are under screwcap. I don't keep meticulous records like Ric does, it will be interesting to see his stats.
I reckon I get about 5% TCA problems and another 1-2% oxidised or corky/musty.
At the NWS last November the TCA rate in some of the large premium red classes with a lot of cork-sealed wines was "only" about 3%.
I reckon I get about 5% TCA problems and another 1-2% oxidised or corky/musty.
At the NWS last November the TCA rate in some of the large premium red classes with a lot of cork-sealed wines was "only" about 3%.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Have had many in the last year with a particularly bad run since xmas, would be running at around 5-10% mostly due to my wife who is particularly TCA intolerant and can normally pick one a mile away.
The most recent was a '99 Zema C/S opened on Sunday night with the TCA mildly discernable on opening and becoming more and more obvious as the wine sat in the glass.
Previously had a run of similarly bad luck whilst holidaying with a Croser and Chardonnay purchased at the Petaluma Cellar door for consumption at the Hotel that night, both Horribly corked, and replaced at the CD the next day no problems, fortunately had a few back ups in the car.
Still surprises me how many cellar doors including some big names serve up tainted and sometimes oxidised wines at tastings, it happens at least a couple of times when on wine region holidays.
The most recent was a '99 Zema C/S opened on Sunday night with the TCA mildly discernable on opening and becoming more and more obvious as the wine sat in the glass.
Previously had a run of similarly bad luck whilst holidaying with a Croser and Chardonnay purchased at the Petaluma Cellar door for consumption at the Hotel that night, both Horribly corked, and replaced at the CD the next day no problems, fortunately had a few back ups in the car.
Still surprises me how many cellar doors including some big names serve up tainted and sometimes oxidised wines at tastings, it happens at least a couple of times when on wine region holidays.
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
I've had my share of corked wines, and with reds there's often a "tainted-ness" about the wine which is only obvious when tasted right there and then against another without that taint.
I'd say 10% taint in the reds would not be far off, and I note that when one is tainted (out of say six), the chances are another will be!
Notably though - up until recently (Clive Otto's departure) I was a regular Vasse Felix consumer, having had wines every year from 1994-2001 inclusive, and I only encountered ONE wine with taint - out of what must have been in excess of 120 bottles. The 1998 Shirazes were a shocker, but that was a non-cork related fault, replaced with 2000s.
On the white front I have been a lot less fortunate. I'm finding that 80% of the cork-sealed whites I open are afflicted by something. Mostly random oxidation (RO) and sometimes corked, leaving a very Russian-Roulettish type situation with any white older than 5 years. And I'm including the likes of Petaluma, Yattarna, Giaconda, LEAS in this. Mount Mary whites have been better, notably on the RO front.
Good news is I've had a couple of dozen wines - red and white - sealed under DIAM, and not one has been dodgy yet. Wines sealed under stelvin are still a bit iffy, as a lot of them seem "stinky" to me. It is literally like they "haven't breathed"!
And the entire Mount Mary release in Dec 2006 was under DIAM, not Stelvin, so fingers crossed!
I'd say 10% taint in the reds would not be far off, and I note that when one is tainted (out of say six), the chances are another will be!
Notably though - up until recently (Clive Otto's departure) I was a regular Vasse Felix consumer, having had wines every year from 1994-2001 inclusive, and I only encountered ONE wine with taint - out of what must have been in excess of 120 bottles. The 1998 Shirazes were a shocker, but that was a non-cork related fault, replaced with 2000s.
On the white front I have been a lot less fortunate. I'm finding that 80% of the cork-sealed whites I open are afflicted by something. Mostly random oxidation (RO) and sometimes corked, leaving a very Russian-Roulettish type situation with any white older than 5 years. And I'm including the likes of Petaluma, Yattarna, Giaconda, LEAS in this. Mount Mary whites have been better, notably on the RO front.
Good news is I've had a couple of dozen wines - red and white - sealed under DIAM, and not one has been dodgy yet. Wines sealed under stelvin are still a bit iffy, as a lot of them seem "stinky" to me. It is literally like they "haven't breathed"!
And the entire Mount Mary release in Dec 2006 was under DIAM, not Stelvin, so fingers crossed!
Let the kids out!
Re: TCA taint rate any better?
As a winemaker I can say that all the numbers of TCA that mention are making sense.
The TCA is between 1% to 15% depends on the quality of the cork, the cork treatments and winemaking process.
It is a shame that after years of cellaring the wine – it has TCA problem.
But nowadays the TCA problem is reduce because better knowledge by winemakers and cork manufactures.
The worth case of TCA that I had was 3 years ago, I gave a lecture about wines that I produce in front of 50 people, and one of the wines that pour to the audience glasses was badly corkiness ( I did not taste the wine before it was pour).
Instead of talking about the wine and the winery I had to talk about corkiness for 10 minutes (the time its take to change 20 glasses).
Note: taint wines are very rare in the winery I worked – less than 1%.
The TCA is between 1% to 15% depends on the quality of the cork, the cork treatments and winemaking process.
It is a shame that after years of cellaring the wine – it has TCA problem.
But nowadays the TCA problem is reduce because better knowledge by winemakers and cork manufactures.
The worth case of TCA that I had was 3 years ago, I gave a lecture about wines that I produce in front of 50 people, and one of the wines that pour to the audience glasses was badly corkiness ( I did not taste the wine before it was pour).
Instead of talking about the wine and the winery I had to talk about corkiness for 10 minutes (the time its take to change 20 glasses).
Note: taint wines are very rare in the winery I worked – less than 1%.
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Grey Ghost
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:28 pm
- Location: NZ
Gregoire,
ROPP (roll on, pilfer "proof" - where proof means evident, not totally prevented) or ROTE - roll on tamper evident - as the yanks couldn't cope with two meanings for "proof") ... is NOT the perfect closure. However it is frankly superior to the corks we were getting out here in the Southern Hemisphere.
Gallo - who have a massive laboratory capability and micro-biologists to burn - tested a percentage of bags in every container of corks for TCA (and other contamination). If they found such, they shipped the entire container back to Spain at supplier's cost.
When you crush, through ONE winery (Modesto) more grapes than the entire Australian harvest, you have this power.
Not even Fosters can do this - or choose not to - which may be the power vested in a family outfit as opposed to a bean-counter outfit.
However, my pet hates aside (yes Ric, bean-counters), ROTE is the answer to a maiden's prayer - until something better comes along.
You complain of "stink" this is part of an equalibrium reaction (TORB will give the link, I'm too technophobic to cope), and much relies on the winemaker understanding the use of SO2 at molecular levels (cf, just adding so many grams per litre free sulphur) at bottling.
In 2004, Nick Bullied reviewed in the Grapegrower Winemaker some Gewurztraminer and Riesling that we made at Wagga,, in 1979, bottled under ROTE and cork. The ROTE sealed wines withstood the twenty five years and were drinkable - the cork-sealed wines ALL failed.
However cork does have advantages in that it absorbs some of the off flavours - or rather masks them. But boy do you have to be careful of the provenance and the supplier! Even then, expect 1% TCA/oxidation/musty (not TCA) characters.
If you cellar wines for eight years the equilibrium reaction will have balanced - even under ROTE - so the reality is that ROTE will taste better when older than it may do when opened at mid-age (say two to four).
RB - you'd let Ric loose on a spreadsheet?
Sheesh - he can't use a spell-checker in Word when he posts his Irregular - don't expect miracles of an IT geek.
GG
ROPP (roll on, pilfer "proof" - where proof means evident, not totally prevented) or ROTE - roll on tamper evident - as the yanks couldn't cope with two meanings for "proof") ... is NOT the perfect closure. However it is frankly superior to the corks we were getting out here in the Southern Hemisphere.
Gallo - who have a massive laboratory capability and micro-biologists to burn - tested a percentage of bags in every container of corks for TCA (and other contamination). If they found such, they shipped the entire container back to Spain at supplier's cost.
When you crush, through ONE winery (Modesto) more grapes than the entire Australian harvest, you have this power.
Not even Fosters can do this - or choose not to - which may be the power vested in a family outfit as opposed to a bean-counter outfit.
However, my pet hates aside (yes Ric, bean-counters), ROTE is the answer to a maiden's prayer - until something better comes along.
You complain of "stink" this is part of an equalibrium reaction (TORB will give the link, I'm too technophobic to cope), and much relies on the winemaker understanding the use of SO2 at molecular levels (cf, just adding so many grams per litre free sulphur) at bottling.
In 2004, Nick Bullied reviewed in the Grapegrower Winemaker some Gewurztraminer and Riesling that we made at Wagga,, in 1979, bottled under ROTE and cork. The ROTE sealed wines withstood the twenty five years and were drinkable - the cork-sealed wines ALL failed.
However cork does have advantages in that it absorbs some of the off flavours - or rather masks them. But boy do you have to be careful of the provenance and the supplier! Even then, expect 1% TCA/oxidation/musty (not TCA) characters.
If you cellar wines for eight years the equilibrium reaction will have balanced - even under ROTE - so the reality is that ROTE will taste better when older than it may do when opened at mid-age (say two to four).
RB - you'd let Ric loose on a spreadsheet?
Sheesh - he can't use a spell-checker in Word when he posts his Irregular - don't expect miracles of an IT geek.
GG
I've had it with corks in white wines - just had a run of 7 out of 8 semillons since December all stuffed with TCA and/or randox. And from 5 different retail outlets! FWIW, 6 of the duds were Elizabeths and one an aged Tyrell's. Bringing out the corkscrew is starting to make me nervous. Roll on the screwcap...
ps: also FWIW, if I get around to a small side-run hand-made batch of pinot noir this year, I'll put it under Diam and see how that goes.
ps: also FWIW, if I get around to a small side-run hand-made batch of pinot noir this year, I'll put it under Diam and see how that goes.
Paul.
GG,
Thanks for casting nustersions upon my speling abilitys.
No worries with a spreadsheet, I have been using them sinec Lotus 123 version 1 and know my way round them.
The link is here. Damned if You Do - Screwed if You Don't
Thanks for casting nustersions upon my speling abilitys.
No worries with a spreadsheet, I have been using them sinec Lotus 123 version 1 and know my way round them.
The link is here. Damned if You Do - Screwed if You Don't
The bad run continues.
Another ugly very hot spell here in Adelaide so again brought up a few reds from the cellar to consume in cool airconditioned comfort whilst the heat wave is on.
Didn't think I could score another one so soon after the last two but yet another corked wine, this time a Clare Valley that was a real stinker, assaulted the nostrils as soon as the cork came out.
At least two of the four I brought up are screwcaps so won't have any problems there.
Another ugly very hot spell here in Adelaide so again brought up a few reds from the cellar to consume in cool airconditioned comfort whilst the heat wave is on.
Didn't think I could score another one so soon after the last two but yet another corked wine, this time a Clare Valley that was a real stinker, assaulted the nostrils as soon as the cork came out.
At least two of the four I brought up are screwcaps so won't have any problems there.
Cheers - Steve
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!