better than a good joint....

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:18 am

Few months ago we had dinner with our Thai friend and what surprised us was:
she was eating hot spicy roasted chilie oil by a tea spoon. Her husband explained us later than Thai get certain high from eating extreme spicy food. Today I got this high. First we ordered the bottle of local syrah, 2004 Chateau de Loei and after ordering 3 chilie peppers on the menu dishes we asked to make 4 chilie peppers, I asked for special roasted and dried chilie peppers we tried once in Sukhottai area. They didn't have them and brought regular dried chilie. I got the whole thing. Tears and sweat came out of me, and I thought I reached nirvannah. The wine was very good, sandal tree on the nose, REAL Asian spice on the palate and I'd gladly send the case of it to Mr Pearson and 1 for myself.
Syrah which you would never mix up with Rhone or Australia,
11.5% alcohol, refreshing acidity, the works.

I am still high......

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:13 pm

Chateau de Loei grown and made in NE Thailand. Consultant winemaker Dorham Mann (son of Jack).

2 crops per year, wet season crop fermented, distilled and made into brandy.

Both the red and white I have tried are not bad wines.

Red Bigot · Post by **Red Bigot** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:49 pm

You were fairly lucky to find a restaurant that will actually serve the hottest food to farang.

A lot of Thai people don't actually eat a lot of very chilli-hot food, Andrea and I can cope with hotter seasoning than many Thai people we have dined with. At several dinners in BKK I've had to finish off the hottest of the dishes as our Thai friends and their relatives and friends couldn't cope. At the roadside food stalls there is usually only 2-3 out of a dozen dishes that are quite hot and most Thai dishes aim for complexity and balance rather than heat. There is often nam prik, nam jim or extra fresh chillis or crushed dried chillis on the side for those that want more heat.

On one trip, on a jungle raft up the Kwai river, we asked if we could have some of what the staff were eating rather than the toned down tourist dishes we'd had the prior meal (we'd seen them cooking and smelled the lovely aromas from the kitchen). The manager agreed and (unbeknownst to us) had a side bet with our Thai friend who was with us that we wouldn't finish the serve - it was pretty fiery, but delicious and we had no problems (other than a bit of extra sweat) finishing it and asking for a little more.

On the other hand I've been firmly put in my place when the owner of our favourite Thai restaurant in Canberra casually ate three of the hottest fresh green chillis provided as a side serve for those who wanted more heat - I'd been slowly working my way through one with food for the last 5 minutes!

You've obviously found that nice ripe shiraz goes incredibly well with spicy Thai food, some of the leaner or oaky/tannic styles don't go so well though.

davidg · Post by **davidg** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:20 pm

You have to remember that chillies are not an endemic part of Thai cuisine. It is most likely that they were introduced into the region by the Portuguese sailors who - if memory served me correctly used them instead of citrus fruits to ward off scurvy.

I have a totally unsubstanciated theory that what has happened over the last few hundred years has been a selective replacement of peppercorns with chillies.

Oh, and Serge, the Chillie dish you had in Sukhothai is a magnificent feature dish of that region. All though I am biased - I have to say that the food in northern central thailand has to be amongst the best and most diverse in the country -- having had waves of Mon, Lanna, Lao and Thai peoples over the centuries.

Red Bigot · Post by **Red Bigot** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:54 pm

davidg wrote:You have to remember that chillies are not an endemic part of Thai cuisine. It is most likely that they were introduced into the region by the Portuguese sailors who - if memory served me correctly used them instead of citrus fruits to ward off scurvy.

I have a totally unsubstanciated theory that what has happened over the last few hundred years has been a selective replacement of peppercorns with chillies.

Oh, and Serge, the Chillie dish you had in Sukhothai is a magnificent feature dish of that region. All though I am biased - I have to say that the food in northern central thailand has to be amongst the best and most diverse in the country -- having had waves of Mon, Lanna, Lao and Thai peoples over the centuries.

They certainly have done a pretty good job of adopting the good old chilli plant. The varieties and flavours of Thai chillis are just so diverse and interesting compared to most of those you can buy here, even the seeds of various Thai varieties I've bought from a couple of Aus internet sites don't end up with the same characteristics.

Some of our favourite curries (eg Gaeng Par or Kaeng Paa and other anglicised variants of the name) have green peppercorn as a key ingredient and we generally make do with the jars of preserved green peppercorns on the stalk when cooking at home.

Our favourite Thai restaurant in Canberra is called Sukothai, it's not the fanciest in town, but I think it's the most authentic and we've tried just about every dish on the menu and quite a few that aren't.

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:12 pm

Davo wrote:Chateau de Loei grown and made in NE Thailand. Consultant winemaker Dorham Mann (son of Jack).

2 crops per year, wet season crop fermented, distilled and made into brandy.

Both the red and white I have tried are not bad wines.

Davo,
I am truly glad you tried Thai wines and I have somebody to talk about them. Chateau Loei went a little off the cliff by the end of the dinner with some smokey oak notes emerging, but all and all was a very pleasant wine. We'll go back again tonight for more.

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:16 pm

davidg wrote:You have to remember that chillies are not an endemic part of Thai cuisine. It is most likely that they were introduced into the region by the Portuguese sailors who - if memory served me correctly used them instead of citrus fruits to ward off scurvy.

I have a totally unsubstanciated theory that what has happened over the last few hundred years has been a selective replacement of peppercorns with chillies.

Oh, and Serge, the Chillie dish you had in Sukhothai is a magnificent feature dish of that region. All though I am biased - I have to say that the food in northern central thailand has to be amongst the best and most diverse in the country -- having had waves of Mon, Lanna, Lao and Thai peoples over the centuries.

David,
I think you are absolutely correct.
1) Chilie peppers have more vitamin C than body actually needs, when consumed in Thai dosages
2) Portugese were in Thailand 3 centuries ago and gave good description of Angor Wat among other things.
3) The Vietnamese and Cambodian cusines are NOT that hot, and they are neighboring countries.
Thanks for your story. I regret for not loading the luggage with those peppers....

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:20 pm

Red Bigot wrote:You were fairly lucky to find a restaurant that will actually serve the hottest food to farang.

Double lucky..we stay at Marriott and as a general rule, the western hotel bring food to the lowest common denominator, as far as spices are concerned.

I had a brief conversation with the cook who came upon our waitress' request. She probably told him she had two crazy farangs on her hands who want to commit suicide.

It was wonderful expereince and we are going back for more...I LOVE the high those spices provide in combo with:
11.5% wine and.....HEAT and HUMIDITY, as we are smokers and seat outside.

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:27 pm

Serge wrote:
3) The Vietnamese and Cambodian cusines are NOT that hot, and they are neighboring countries.

You shouldn't generalise Serge. Vietnam has provided some of the hottest food I have ever eaten.

My Viet mate eats chillies by the bunch that I can only tolerate a very tiny amount at a time. And I think I am pretty chilli tolerant having grown up with Italian mates who would be served olives cheese and fresh chillies as their post school snack.

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:35 pm

Davo,
I tried 2 Vietnamese cusines:
Nothern with Chinese influence
and Southern with French influence,
none of them was particularly hot.

Please ask your friend if his taste for spice is the result of the Vietnamese cusines I am not familiar with or just aquired taste.

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:13 pm

He is Sth Vietnamese, was an ENT surgeon before the Yanks picked up their skirts and fled. Came out to Oz aboard a very small leaky boat.

His taste for chilli is just his native cuisine. His meals here are the same as they were at home apart from the obvious changes for differing ingredients. 99% of them are searingly hot.

As an aside, Robyn Williams thought they were pretty warm as well when he tried market food in "Good Morning Vietnam". But then, he was just acting.

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:29 pm

Davo,
I guess than that the Vietnamese food served in USA been westernized to accomodate the locals

Good to know that if we ever make it to Vietnam, which is not on our near term plans, we'll have something decent and hot to eat

winetastic · Post by **winetastic** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:33 am

All this talk of Thai food is giving me serious cravings. Panang curry + a glass of gewurz (sorry red bigots) would go down so well for breakfast

Red Bigot · Post by **Red Bigot** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:01 am

winetastic wrote:All this talk of Thai food is giving me serious cravings. Panang curry + a glass of gewurz (sorry red bigots) would go down so well for breakfast

Yeah, Panang Curry with sparkling shiraz would just hit the spot. :lol:

Red Bigot · Post by **Red Bigot** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:04 am

Davo wrote:He is Sth Vietnamese, was an ENT surgeon before the Yanks picked up their skirts and fled. Came out to Oz aboard a very small leaky boat.

His taste for chilli is just his native cuisine. His meals here are the same as they were at home apart from the obvious changes for differing ingredients. 99% of them are searingly hot.

As an aside, Robyn Williams thought they were pretty warm as well when he tried market food in "Good Morning Vietnam". But then, he was just acting.

Davo, I've not had any really hot Viet food (not been to Vietnam either), although the local Cambodian/Vietnamese restaurant we get take-away from does some quite spicy Cambodian dishes, some with pepper as well or instead of chilli.

How about you make it your bonus task of the week to get a couple of recipes from your vietnamese friend?

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:11 am

Red Bigot wrote:
Davo wrote:
Davo, I've not had any really hot Viet food (not been to Vietnam either), although the local Cambodian/Vietnamese restaurant we get take-away from does some quite spicy Cambodian dishes, some with pepper as well or instead of chilli.

How about you make it your bonus task of the week to get a couple of recipes from your vietnamese friend?

I spoke with my outmost authority on cooking, my better half, and she pointed to me that:
Thai people incorporate the spice into the sauce, while Vietnamese put hot spice on the side, so one can chose the degree of spicyness.

I don't know if this is an American Vietnam food version or authentic practice, though.

davidg · Post by **davidg** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:22 am

Sorry to pull this thread even further away from wine but...

Serge, you said you were in Sukhothai? Where in Sukhothai - just the city or did you get out and about in the Province. What did you do/see while you were there?

I spent 3-4 months of the year for a good 10 years working in Sukhothai Province. I was based in and around Ban Ko Noi and the old city of SiSatchanalai

This whole thai food thread is making me homesick.

Red Bigot · Post by **Red Bigot** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:35 am

Serge wrote:
Red Bigot wrote:
Davo wrote:
Davo, I've not had any really hot Viet food (not been to Vietnam either), although the local Cambodian/Vietnamese restaurant we get take-away from does some quite spicy Cambodian dishes, some with pepper as well or instead of chilli.

How about you make it your bonus task of the week to get a couple of recipes from your vietnamese friend?

I spoke with my outmost authority on cooking, my better half, and she pointed to me that:
Thai people incorporate the spice into the sauce, while Vietnamese put hot spice on the side, so one can chose the degree of spicyness.

I don't know if this is an American Vietnam food version or authentic practice, though.

Thai people do both too - in the cooking and on the side, covers all bases, although the starting level of heat in some Thai dishes is quite high and additional chilli isn't generally needed for those. There are so many different variations of Thai food from North to South and in between it's pretty hard to generalise. As I said above, there is a lot of Thai food that doesn't have a lot of chilli heat.

See if you can find this dish: Yam Pla Dook Fu or Yam Pla Dook Foo or Yam Pla Duk Foo - it's a lightly spiced textural dish, baked, shredded and deep-fried catfish, melts in the mouth, served with various spicy salads. It's not that common as it takes quite a while to prepare.

When we are checking out a new Thai restaurant we often order some of our favourite dishes that require a bit of care to get the balance right - Som Tam, Pork or Chicken Larb, simple stir-fried Chicken with Basil and Chilli and Red Curry of Duck are four dishes that will tell you if the restaurant is any good or not. If a restaurant dishes up a Larb that's not at least as good as I can make we never go back.

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:47 am

David,
don't apologise, thread names are meaningless. We are not at the business meeting

We landed in Sukhottai from BKK, were met by a driver and a guide and toured the ruins. I always tell my guides EVERYWHERE:
Forget about touristy joints, take us to the places where would YOU enjoy eating and please show us the specialties of local cusines. I usually foot the bill, so nobody feels restricted in any way shape or form
what to order.

We stopped for lunch 10-15 km north of the the ruins and had local specialties - 5 different rice noodles with sauces/curries from mild to ""grow hairs on the chest".

The night we spent in Lampang and our guide took at for dinner at the local Chinese restaurant. I swear, this place would have been condemed by USA restaurant authorities, but we didn't care. We were the only non locals in the place and the bill for dinner for 4 was...250 Bahts including tip. ( about $7 US). Interesting food - Chinese but with a heavy Thai accent like...Chinese preserved eggs with dried spicy basil leaves and snake head soup with chilie peppers.

We continued thru Lampoong to Chang Mai where we spent another
2 nights having one night dinner with wine and our guide
(driver went home, he missed his wife, poor dear )

The price including wine and tip -
Bahts 1600, about $45 US

For comparission:
dinner for 2 at Four Seasons with wine and food not much better than in the city..whoapping $155 US, 30% more than what I would pay at Thai restaurant in USA.

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:50 am

RB,
we are leaving tomorrow and Phuket is more touristy than the mainland, I don't think we find it here at Marriott.

Interestingly enough,
we have the same approach with new Thai restaurants.
I order Tom Yom Koong and duck,
and comparing apples to apples I can tell if the place worth revisit or not.

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:26 am

Red Bigot wrote:

How about you make it your bonus task of the week to get a couple of recipes from your vietnamese friend?

Rats. No bonus points for me.

He is in HK for 2 weeks.

But I will ask him for recipes when he gets back.

As an aside, he did keep all the stomachs from the bigger fish we caught on the last trip, to be dried and later fried. I never got to try any :cry:

Red Bigot · Post by **Red Bigot** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:29 am

Serge wrote:RB,
we are leaving tomorrow and Phuket is more touristy than the mainland, I don't think we find it here at Marriott.

Interestingly enough,
we have the same approach with new Thai restaurants.
I order Tom Yom Koong and duck,
and comparing apples to apples I can tell if the place worth revisit or not.

You could probably get it at Patong (along with a lot of other things ;-)

) but it's a long way from the Marriott.

winetastic · Post by **winetastic** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:06 pm

Red Bigot wrote:Yeah, Panang Curry with sparkling shiraz would just hit the spot.

Noted, I will give this one a try upon my return from the UK in jan.

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:12 pm

Red Bigot wrote:
Serge wrote:RB,
we are leaving tomorrow and Phuket is more touristy than the mainland, I don't think we find it here at Marriott.

Interestingly enough,
we have the same approach with new Thai restaurants.
I order Tom Yom Koong and duck,
and comparing apples to apples I can tell if the place worth revisit or not.

You could probably get it at Patong (along with a lot of other things ) but it's a long way from the Marriott.

Yep, you can get most things along Bangla Rd.

The No. 9 seafood BBQ on the main drag is excellent vfm as is Sabi Sabi behind the Patong post office.. And the Restaurant on the hill north of Patong overlooking the beach (can't recall the name) has an excellent menu, if a bit exxy compared to the strret.

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:04 pm

we'll be in Patong today, doing something I haven't done in 30+ years
(no, I am not talking about getting local hookers!)
having a tailored suits, pants, blouses for missy made.

They are dirt cheap there and done in 6 hours!

We'll try getting "Yam Pla Dook Fu or Yam Pla Dook Foo or Yam Pla Duk Foo"...if ladies of the night don't get to me first

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:30 pm

Red Bigot wrote:
Serge wrote:
Red Bigot wrote:
Davo wrote:
Davo, I've not had any really hot Viet food (not been to Vietnam either), although the local Cambodian/Vietnamese restaurant we get take-away from does some quite spicy Cambodian dishes, some with pepper as well or instead of chilli.

How about you make it your bonus task of the week to get a couple of recipes from your vietnamese friend?

I spoke with my outmost authority on cooking, my better half, and she pointed to me that:
Thai people incorporate the spice into the sauce, while Vietnamese put hot spice on the side, so one can chose the degree of spicyness.

I don't know if this is an American Vietnam food version or authentic practice, though.

Thai people do both too - in the cooking and on the side, covers all bases, although the starting level of heat in some Thai dishes is quite high and additional chilli isn't generally needed for those. There are so many different variations of Thai food from North to South and in between it's pretty hard to generalise. As I said above, there is a lot of Thai food that doesn't have a lot of chilli heat.

See if you can find this dish: Yam Pla Dook Fu or Yam Pla Dook Foo or Yam Pla Duk Foo - it's a lightly spiced textural dish, baked, shredded and deep-fried catfish, melts in the mouth, served with various spicy salads. It's not that common as it takes quite a while to prepare.

When we are checking out a new Thai restaurant we often order some of our favourite dishes that require a bit of care to get the balance right - Som Tam, Pork or Chicken Larb, simple stir-fried Chicken with Basil and Chilli and Red Curry of Duck are four dishes that will tell you if the restaurant is any good or not. If a restaurant dishes up a Larb that's not at least as good as I can make we never go back.

I have dug out my recipe for Bun Bo, beef with noodles, and will post it in the food section

Serge Birbrair · Post by **Serge Birbrair** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:12 pm

Serge wrote:we'll be in Patong today, doing something I haven't done in 30+ years
(no, I am not talking about getting local hookers!)
having a tailored suits, pants, blouses for missy made.

They are dirt cheap there and done in 6 hours!

We'll try getting "Yam Pla Dook Fu or Yam Pla Dook Foo or Yam Pla Duk Foo"...if ladies of the night don't get to me first

Moth^&%^$%#^ers!

First it was bait and switch, what was advertised as $179 set of premium materials, was Chinese junk of colors I wouldn't wear even if I was dead.

Than what was an ad offer of FREE pick up from your hotel turned into extortion of 600 Bahts because I didn't wanna buy anything. Needless to say I am very happy to be back into hotel, no walking down the city, no hookers (well, I saw 2 which looked very decent)
no shirts, pants, no paying extortion and the most important and tragic ..no dishes

time to go home and start gearing for NZ