Shiraz or Shir(ah)z?

Stuart · Post by **Stuart** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:39 pm

How does everyone (actually just Australians) out there pronounce the word shiraz?
I say shiraz like it rhymes with pizzazz.
But I have noticed an increasing trend of people of people pronouncing shir(ah)z, like it rhymes with Mars or syrah.
What is the deal there?
Fair enough if you say the word syrah like that, because that's the French name for the grape and that's the way the French say it. But shiraz is an Australian grape/wine and up until recently (I think) we have pronounced it in a distincltly Australian way (like pizzazz).
I have noticed this pronunciation coming from trendy types, in flash restaurants and people in media circles etc. I don;t get why people do this type of thing. Is it to look better or what? Snobbism?
Sorry, just a general whinge at wine fashion - because there should be no such thing as fashion relating to wine in my opinion.
Disclaimer: I am from Melbourne so this could just be a Melbourne thing. I do realise, especially in Adelaide, that people pronounce words (like France, dance and castle etc) differently from people in the eastern states. But these are Melbourne people saying it like that!

Wine Girl · Post by **Wine Girl** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:55 pm

I agree completely...think it is just toss-pottedness gone crazy. In Australia, can we just keep it pronounced Shiraz (pizzazz), people? There is enough wankerness (can I say that word on here?) in the wine world as it is.

It's like how in restaurants now the prices on the menu are 9.9 instead of 9.90 for $9.90. Where did that come from all of a sudden? Which marketing tool invented that little bandwagon?

Elvispga · Post by **Elvispga** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:59 pm

Shi-raz and not Shi-rahz. If you want to say Shi-rahz call it Syrah! It's a pet hate of mine and I think of it as wine wanker confusion.

Cheers
Elvis

JamieBahrain · Post by **JamieBahrain** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:37 pm

You are all wrong- it's she-raz. I know because I used to spend time in the city of Shiraz in Iran. :wink:

Gavin Trott · Post by **Gavin Trott** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:49 pm

You say potayto

I say

pot arto

You say tomayto

I say

tom arto

??

JamieBahrain · Post by **JamieBahrain** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:51 pm

Gavin Trott wrote:You say potayto

I say

pot arto

You say tomayto

I say

tom arto

??

yeah but you're from Adelaide

kirragc · Post by **kirragc** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:33 pm

I learnt about wine wine from a guy with a thick Yugoslav accent (they still existed then)
He sounded like Shithaus.

Man we would laugh after a long tasting session when he picked up a glass and announced that it was shithouse.

pokolbinguy · Post by **pokolbinguy** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:15 pm

From what I have read .... I can't remember where...

The grape variety is properly named "Syrah", as the french call it. The grape originated from Persia (now Iran?) some 3000 years ago or something alike.

Now the city that this grape came from was called "Shiraz", pronounced "Sh-rah" (Z is silent).

Pretty much half of the world stuffed up and uses the word Shiraz for the grape and the other half uses Syrah how you say it really doesnt matter.

As long as you dont call chardonnay, "Card-don-ay" or verdelho "verd-lo", i'm fine with it all.

platinum · Post by **platinum** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:18 pm

Wine Girl wrote:It's like how in restaurants now the prices on the menu are 9.9 instead of 9.90 for $9.90. Where did that come from all of a sudden? Which marketing tool invented that little bandwagon?

Lol... Ive wondered that myself a few times.

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:40 am

woodwardbrett wrote:The grape originated from Persia (now Iran?) some 3000 years ago or something alike.

No it didn't. That's a common misconception. Syrah originated in France. They've done DNA testing to prove this.

Bill

Daryl Douglas · Post by **Daryl Douglas** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:41 am

Bill wrote:
woodwardbrett wrote:The grape originated from Persia (now Iran?) some 3000 years ago or something alike.

No it didn't. That's a common misconception. Syrah originated in France. They've done DNA testing to prove this.

Bill

Yeah Bill, the origin of the modern syrah/shiraz grape variety has been narrowed down to France but that still is a limited point of view IMO. After all wine grapes were known in ancient times, not least around the mediterranean region so I'm not totally convinced. The French would like to promote just about all wine grape varieties (well, those they grow and base their questionable reputation on) as all French origin. No, wrong.

Do you really, or even reasonable French people, believe that syrah/shiraz has it's sole origin in that one patch of the earth that seems to claim to be sole originator of all worthwhile things vinous?

BTW, from where were the origins of the samples in the DNA of the tests? Were there any controls? I think it would be found that most of the vine stock originated from France, sure, but are those foundation vines really indigenous to France? Grape vines don't know nationality - get'em from anywhere, plant 'em, feed 'em and water 'em.

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:26 am

Daryl Douglas wrote:
Bill wrote:
woodwardbrett wrote:The grape originated from Persia (now Iran?) some 3000 years ago or something alike.

No it didn't. That's a common misconception. Syrah originated in France. They've done DNA testing to prove this.

Bill

Yeah Bill, the origin of the modern syrah/shiraz grape variety has been narrowed down to France but that still is a limited point of view IMO. After all wine grapes were known in ancient times, not least around the mediterranean region so I'm not totally convinced. The French would like to promote just about all wine grape varieties (well, those they grow and base their questionable reputation on) as all French origin. No, wrong.

Do you really, or even reasonable French people, believe that syrah/shiraz has it's sole origin in that one patch of the earth that seems to claim to be sole originator of all worthwhile things vinous?

BTW, from where were the origins of the samples in the DNA of the tests? Were there any controls? I think it would be found that most of the vine stock originated from France, sure, but are those foundation vines really indigenous to France? Grape vines don't know nationality - get'em from anywhere, plant 'em, feed 'em and water 'em.

For more info, check out the article at http://pweb.netcom.com/~lachenm/month/02/01.html
It's a very interesting read.

Bill

pokolbinguy · Post by **pokolbinguy** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:55 am

Bill,
Interesting read you have there. But I'm not completely convinced. The site seems to have no references, no links to scientific back up etc. Maybe I'm just to sceptic.

Anyway until I'm proved wrong I like my little story :lol:

As said previously in this thread...

You say po-tate-Os, I Say po-tartos

JamieBahrain · Post by **JamieBahrain** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:14 pm

The Shiraz region in Iran was a famous wine region and today, is a superb regional source of fruits- I imagine the Mad Mullahs had their own vine pull scheme centuries ago.

There are two dominant languages in Iran. But I would guess Farsi is dominant historically around shiraz. You don't drop the Z in Farsi. Shiraz is she-raz!

Whether the grape came from France or wherever, I would still believe shiraz was named after the famed, Persian winemaking region.

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:25 pm

And it also mentions in the World Atlas of Wine (by Hugh Johnson and Jancis Robinson) that no connection has ever been made between the town of Shiraz and the grape variety.

Bill

JamieBahrain · Post by **JamieBahrain** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:49 pm

Bill

There is an obvious connection- Shiraz was a famous wine growing region in Biblical times, aswell as pre & post Persian Empire.

That a variety is called shiraz, in a different language, an unusual coincidence to me.

Pehaps the cruelist irony is, Shiraz probably still a suitable vitacultural region ( I used to freight superb fruit out of there ). But making wine a 'hangable' offence! :shock:

Billy Bolonski · Post by **Billy Bolonski** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:54 pm

Either way, isn't the thread about mixing the message?

Shiraz or Syrah

Not a combination....Shyrah

That combination is not right either way. Which ever storey you believe.

This type of needless confusion is what makes the averge punter go off wine and 'wine culture' real fast. They right us all off as 'wine wankers'.

I notice that some Oz producers are switching from Shiraz to Syrah for marketing. Does this help? Are we creating a new Pinot Gris/Pinot Grigio situation?

Lets not forget there are thousands of synonims for grape varieties out there. Are we opening Pandora's Box?

Keep it simple I say.

Billy B

Wine Girl · Post by **Wine Girl** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:01 pm

I have to agree with Billy B here. The wine industry is already drowning in wanky stuff, no need to add more. Anything that turns off everyday people with little or no wine experience or qualifications should be avoided.

D.I · Post by **D.I** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:10 pm

Its not make sense to create a new name for the Shiraz.
It's so hard to create brand name product and it's very easy to destroy that success.
Australia is famous for the Shiraz, if people start calling the wine Syrah its will help the French winesÃ¢â‚¬Â¦..
So be consistent calling the wines Shiraz.

roughred · Post by **roughred** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:56 pm

Really what does it matter....

Getting worked up over pronunciation (or spelling for that matter) is what I deem to be wanky...

And as for marketing threats, another smart little drop I heard of got by just calling itself "Hermitage" for a while...didn't seem to do it any harm.

LL

Billy Bolonski · Post by **Billy Bolonski** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:39 pm

Rough Red

It does matter when you can't sell your wine and you go broke.

If we want people to buy more wine, which we do, why would we make it more confusing?

Grange calling itself "hermitage" still causes confusion.

Ask an average Australian to read a French wine lable and tell you anything about the wine inside. Good Luck.

Clear and accurate lables are a very good thing. We should not give that up as easily as you suggest.

Lets keep it simple and accurate!

Billy B

Mahmoud Ali · Post by **Mahmoud Ali** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:59 am

I must confess I haven't heard any other pronounciation of Shiraz. As for the origin of the grape variety I always thought that it came to the northern Rhone from Palestine via returning Crusaders. One fellow, on his return to France, became a hermit up on a hill. Today, the little chapel, or hermitage, is still there and the wine region is called Hermitage. The red grapes there is the Syrah, perhaps the French basterdization of Shiraz. In the early days of Australian wine some wines were called 'Hermitage', like the Grange and Yalumba's Galway Hermitage, much like wines called 'Claret' and 'Burgundy'.

The popularity of Australian Shiraz has brought about a distinct polarization of styles, one epitomized by the French (Hermitage, Croze-Hermitage, Cornas, St.Josepth in the northern Rhone) and the other by the Australian (Barossa, Mclaren Vale, etc). Wine makers from other countries have taken to calling their Syrah/Shiraz wines by the style they wish to emulate, Syrah for the cooler climate, restrained style, and Shiraz for the fruitier, opulent, 'block-buster' style.

In South Africa, where Syrah/Shiraz is beginning to make a name for itself there is a producer who uses both names. Graham Beck wines makes a Shiraz as their entry level wine and a single vineyard 'Ridge Syrah'. At a Shiraz tasting in Canada I preferred the Graham Beck Ridge Syrah at C$25 to the Peter Lehmann Eight Songs Shiraz at C$50. I guess my point is that the use of the term 'Syrah' doesn't necessarily mean support for French wines, rather a reflection of the style of wine the producer is trying to make. There are now Syrah/Shiraz wines from South Africa, Chile, Italy and California. In Lebanon, one of the best wines I tasted was a Cabernet/Shiraz called 'Comte de M' by Chateau Kefraya. It may be only a matter of time before they bottle a straight varietal. The only question is, will it be a Shiraz, or a Syrah?

Cheers............Mahmoud.

Stuart · Post by **Stuart** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:22 pm

roughred wrote:Really what does it matter....

Getting worked up over pronunciation (or spelling for that matter) is what I deem to be wanky...

And as for marketing threats, another smart little drop I heard of got by just calling itself "Hermitage" for a while...didn't seem to do it any harm.

LL

Well you're just as wanky as the rest of us mate, because you have put your two bobs worth on the issue!!
The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter if you call it shiraz or syrah to reflect a wine style, but to start pronouncing shiraz - a distinctly Australian wine term, something different to sound more sophisticated and less occa gives me the irrates.

roughred · Post by **roughred** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:05 pm

Crikey cobber...

Dont worry mate, next time im dry as a dead dingo's donger i'll be sure to reach for a Shi-razz, true dinks, she'll be apples...

Now what about those fancy twats that drop the L out of Semillon, I reckon we should line them up next...

LL

Furuhata · Post by **Furuhata** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:16 pm

How about "riesling"? I think most Aussies pronounce it "reeze-ling", but someone told me it should be "reese-ling" (as in Witherspoon). Is this correct, or just another wanky wine thing?

- Furuhata

JamieBahrain · Post by **JamieBahrain** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:49 pm

Is it merlow or merlut?

I have heard merlut used in Queensland a few times.

Michael McNally · Post by **Michael McNally** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:20 am

JamieBahrain wrote:Is it merlow or merlut?

I have heard merlut used in Queensland a few times.

Apologies for the parochialism, (and I know you were simply extracting the urine Jamie) but is it worse to mispronounce something out of ignorance or to do it deliberately to feign sophistication? Definately the latter :wink:

.

Michael

Ian S · Post by **Ian S** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:38 pm

The one that got to me was people pronouncing Penfolds Grange but with the Grange pronounced as the French would (sort of like Grarnj). Can't be done with that.

Daryl Douglas · Post by **Daryl Douglas** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:32 am

JamieBahrain wrote:Is it merlow or merlut?

I have heard merlut used in Queensland a few times.

Probably by ex-pat Kiwis?

What's a merl-ow(!)? Or a merl-oo? Perhaps something I rarely drink but pronounce as merl-oh anyway. :roll:

And it's reez-ling to me. If it were reece-ling, it should be spelt riessling, as in Wiesner compared to Wiessner. But then I don't know the German language.

To cut back to the chase, colloquial pronunciation of words works depending on where you are. Sloan rangers would probably drink french sy-rahh and orstrahlian shirahz.

Me, I just call it shiraz. If ever I were to go overseas, I'd be instantly revealed as an Oss-trail-ee-un.

PHHHHTTTTTT, this is worse than "decanted" V "decantered".

Oooo rrrrrr

Cheers people but this thread is sublime, ridiculous and hilarious - all at the same time. :lol:

Cheers

daz

Omotesando · Post by **Omotesando** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:43 am

I actually was corrected by someone, telling me to pronounce SYRAH as 'SEE-HAR'. Which in fact I kind of suspected was possible seeing how the frogs pronounce 'R' but everyone else says SY-RAH anyway.

So what's the deal with it?
:cry: