Anyone had problems with the Kurtz 2003 Shiraz. I've had two bottles and both have suffered from a burnt rubber stink. May be a screwcap problem, although the wine has been received well by the critics over here.
Kurtz Family Vineyards Boundary Row Barossa Valley Shiraz 2003 $23.99USD (Screwcap)
Burnt rubber/matchstick odor prominent on removal of screwcap. Poured wine is cherry red with pink edge. Vigorous swirling of the wine does remove much of the odor leaving just hints of licorice and stewed fruits. On the palate the acidity is sharp and biting, the tannins drying and the finish fades dramatically. Not attractive drinking.
A second bottle opened was in similar condition with an unpleasant odor of rubber and was undrinkable.
Mike
A little better than 50 points
KMP,
Have you tried any Kurtz Family Vineyards wines before? I've consumed two of their wines in the past, the 2001 Boundary Row Shiraz and the 2004 (I think) 7 sleepers. Both were badly Brett-affected, and I got the feeling that their wine-making processes were oblivious to Brett (and perhaps that they encourage its presence). They're not the only winery in who's products I've observed high Brett levels across the board. Pikes is another.
The problem you describe seems different to Brett (at least as my palate interprets it), but it's something to consider.
Stuart
Have you tried any Kurtz Family Vineyards wines before? I've consumed two of their wines in the past, the 2001 Boundary Row Shiraz and the 2004 (I think) 7 sleepers. Both were badly Brett-affected, and I got the feeling that their wine-making processes were oblivious to Brett (and perhaps that they encourage its presence). They're not the only winery in who's products I've observed high Brett levels across the board. Pikes is another.
The problem you describe seems different to Brett (at least as my palate interprets it), but it's something to consider.
Stuart
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KMP
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Stuart
I've had the 2002 Shiraz before, and that was quite reasonable.
Kurtz Family Vineyards Boundary Row Barossa Valley Shiraz 2002 $24.99USD
Cherry red with red edge. Initial flavors were of plums and blueberries with a toasted sweet oak flavor developing with time. Medium to full bodied and well balanced with soft tannins and a clean acid finish. At 24 hours notes of pepper and oak were most evident and the alcohol and acidity were showing through.
The problem with the two bottles of the 2003 that I have had is not what I would call Brett. Vigorous swirling of the wine in the glass will reduce the odor. It seems more likely to be a screwcap problem, that may have affected a batch of wine; both Parker and Wine Spectator have rated the wine well.
Mike
I've had the 2002 Shiraz before, and that was quite reasonable.
Kurtz Family Vineyards Boundary Row Barossa Valley Shiraz 2002 $24.99USD
Cherry red with red edge. Initial flavors were of plums and blueberries with a toasted sweet oak flavor developing with time. Medium to full bodied and well balanced with soft tannins and a clean acid finish. At 24 hours notes of pepper and oak were most evident and the alcohol and acidity were showing through.
The problem with the two bottles of the 2003 that I have had is not what I would call Brett. Vigorous swirling of the wine in the glass will reduce the odor. It seems more likely to be a screwcap problem, that may have affected a batch of wine; both Parker and Wine Spectator have rated the wine well.
Mike
beef wrote: They're not the only winery in who's products I've observed high Brett levels across the board. Pikes is another.
Stuart,
The problem here is most definitely related to a sulfur compound. I'm interested in your comment on Pikes though. Which particular examples have you found a brett problem in? I've had their riesling and cabernet before, and three more of their wines yesterday, and haven't found a morsel of dekkera anywhere.
Cheers,
Max
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
Hi Mike,
When I tried it in May 05, it had recently been bottled. My TN read "Sealed in Stelvin, the wine opened up with a little bit of stink (which blew off) and showed coffee oak and black fruits. With enough tannins to hold the wine together.....
So, if the wine was not 100% clean and a touch reductive when it went into bottle under screwcap, the problem would only get worse.
Sounds like that's exactly what has happened and if the Parker and WS reviews were done when hadn't been in bottle for long, that would also explain it.
When I tried it in May 05, it had recently been bottled. My TN read "Sealed in Stelvin, the wine opened up with a little bit of stink (which blew off) and showed coffee oak and black fruits. With enough tannins to hold the wine together.....
So, if the wine was not 100% clean and a touch reductive when it went into bottle under screwcap, the problem would only get worse.
Sounds like that's exactly what has happened and if the Parker and WS reviews were done when hadn't been in bottle for long, that would also explain it.
Maximus wrote:beef wrote: They're not the only winery in who's products I've observed high Brett levels across the board. Pikes is another.
Stuart,
The problem here is most definitely related to a sulfur compound. I'm interested in your comment on Pikes though. Which particular examples have you found a brett problem in? I've had their riesling and cabernet before, and three more of their wines yesterday, and haven't found a morsel of dekkera anywhere.
Cheers,
Hi Max,
I've had the 1998 Shiraz, the 2002 Shiraz, and the 2002(?) Cabernet. All were, IMO, significantly Brett-affected.
If you could point me towards one of their current vintage (red) wines that you feel is Brett-free, I'll acquire a bottle and post my thoughts. Would make for an interesting discussion, if nothing else.
Stuart
p.s. As a qualification, I think I'm particularly sensitive to Brett. I even found it, at intolerable levels, in the 2002 Penfolds Bin 128. From my experience, however, it's more prevalent in small producers' wines.
The burnt match smell develop in bottle. Many small producers are heavy handed with the SO2 and dont let it fully degrade before bottling. Screw cap exacerbates it. Personally I dont have a problem with a little bit of bottle stink as long as it is easily dispersed.
Another thing I have found is that bottles that have a bit of stink on opening are often quite interesting in they tend to be the type that change over time.
Another thing I have found is that bottles that have a bit of stink on opening are often quite interesting in they tend to be the type that change over time.
Futue te ipsum
I had burnt rubber smells with 03 Boundary Row. It was worse as a young wine. It seems to get better as the wine ages and settles down.
Better than the 01 Boundary Row though were most of the corks were very loose and the wine looked prematurely oxidised and tired. Pretty much off my list these days.
GW
Better than the 01 Boundary Row though were most of the corks were very loose and the wine looked prematurely oxidised and tired. Pretty much off my list these days.
GW
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Gavin Trott
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) bottle in the cellar.
I know it is not the fault of the screwcap, but the number of stinky, or reductive wines under these alternate closures are starting to become a bit of a worry.
The one positive of cork was that it was more forgiving in the circumstances, and from what I understand was actually able to absorb some of these volatile compounds.
If winemakers are going to use screwcaps, they need to be squeaky clean and sealed correctly.
The one positive of cork was that it was more forgiving in the circumstances, and from what I understand was actually able to absorb some of these volatile compounds.
If winemakers are going to use screwcaps, they need to be squeaky clean and sealed correctly.
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KMP
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TORB wrote:I know it is not the fault of the screwcap, but the number of stinky, or reductive wines under these alternate closures are starting to become a bit of a worry.
The one positive of cork was that it was more forgiving in the circumstances, and from what I understand was actually able to absorb some of these volatile compounds.
If winemakers are going to use screwcaps, they need to be squeaky clean and sealed correctly.
Ric is correct and I've not made myself clear. The two bottles I've tasted were essentially undrinkable. Even a half bottle left overnight did not improve. But the smell was not the only problem with the wine, there were other problems (see the TN). The second bottle was no better. As this wine has apparently received scores of 90 and notes that do not mention any reductive odor I thought it best to ask if others had observed the same problem as the most likely explanation is that the tighter seal of the screwcap has not allowed the loss of reductive volatile components.
It seems like the problem is fairly common but not universal (bigkid did not see it in all bottles). So the question remains whether the wine was made in batches in such a way that some bottles have a bigger problem with reductive odor?
Mike
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KMP
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An FYI post for those interested.
Jamie Goode has an interesting piece on Reduction on the Wine & Spirit site.
Campbell Mattinson did an Editorial on Screwcaps and bottle variation in reductive character. See Wine Front. There are over 20 comments in the subscriber section including comments from local expert Tyson Stelzer. Another reason to subscribe?
Plus with regard to the Kurtz 2003 Boundary Row Shiraz. Here is one USA distributor's notes on the wine; the winery is very difficult to locate online. Apparently only 600 cases were made so its not a large production. Additionally the "wine is racked 3 times and course filtered prior to bottling. No fining or settling agents used." This is also from the distributor site but all that racking should help remove reductive character, which suggests that the Kurtz problem may be a bottling problem?
Mike
Jamie Goode has an interesting piece on Reduction on the Wine & Spirit site.
Campbell Mattinson did an Editorial on Screwcaps and bottle variation in reductive character. See Wine Front. There are over 20 comments in the subscriber section including comments from local expert Tyson Stelzer. Another reason to subscribe?
Plus with regard to the Kurtz 2003 Boundary Row Shiraz. Here is one USA distributor's notes on the wine; the winery is very difficult to locate online. Apparently only 600 cases were made so its not a large production. Additionally the "wine is racked 3 times and course filtered prior to bottling. No fining or settling agents used." This is also from the distributor site but all that racking should help remove reductive character, which suggests that the Kurtz problem may be a bottling problem?
Mike
racking doesnt remove sulphur though
Any winemakers enlighten us on this one.
Am I wrong in thinking that a wine prone to developing reductive characters would benefit from some oxygen (ie bottled under cork or even micro-oxygenation)??
My thinking is that the overuse of SO2 during the winemaking process is the main mistake here.
I can think of 2 reasons; poor or lazy winemaking or poor quality grapes requiring heaps of SO2 to stop the rot.
Any winemakers enlighten us on this one.
Am I wrong in thinking that a wine prone to developing reductive characters would benefit from some oxygen (ie bottled under cork or even micro-oxygenation)??
My thinking is that the overuse of SO2 during the winemaking process is the main mistake here.
I can think of 2 reasons; poor or lazy winemaking or poor quality grapes requiring heaps of SO2 to stop the rot.
Futue te ipsum
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KMP
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Having never made wine.........
I would have thought that they would have been assessing the sulphur (additions) during the wine making process. The USA wine distributor site lists the wine as having Free/Total Sulfur: 19/59. Now when that was done or what the units are (mgs/L) - who knows?
In terms of racking. I would have thought that if the early racking was done with some exposure to air it would lessen the chance of reductive character. Although Jamie Goode's comments would suggest that if there is poor wine making then mercaptans could be formed and they can be very hard to remove. The problem is that not all bottles seem to be affected so I doubt that all of the wine has the same fault.
I wonder if the winery folks visit the forum?
Mike
I would have thought that they would have been assessing the sulphur (additions) during the wine making process. The USA wine distributor site lists the wine as having Free/Total Sulfur: 19/59. Now when that was done or what the units are (mgs/L) - who knows?
In terms of racking. I would have thought that if the early racking was done with some exposure to air it would lessen the chance of reductive character. Although Jamie Goode's comments would suggest that if there is poor wine making then mercaptans could be formed and they can be very hard to remove. The problem is that not all bottles seem to be affected so I doubt that all of the wine has the same fault.
I wonder if the winery folks visit the forum?
Mike
I'm not a winemaker but I am a winemaking student.
So I will give it a go. What KMP described are classic reductive aromas.
Put simply screwcaps provide a tighter seal than corks and therefor encourages a reductive environment. Sulpher compounds are readily produced under reductive conditions. Hence you here people say a wine has a reduction problem.
These compounds are:
Sulpher dioxide
Mercaptans
Dimethyl sulphide
Thiols
There is no hard data that suggests this is a consistant feature of screwcaps.
If these negative reduced aromas turn out to be a general scewcap hazard I have read a few papers that suggest it could be elimiated by
1. bottling with a bigger headspace
2. Using less sulpher dioxide at bottling
3. Avoiding the use of ascorbic acid (which is an antioxidant)
4. Taking care to remove all sulphide compounds in the wine at bottling.
I guess its a case of watch this space.
So I will give it a go. What KMP described are classic reductive aromas.
Put simply screwcaps provide a tighter seal than corks and therefor encourages a reductive environment. Sulpher compounds are readily produced under reductive conditions. Hence you here people say a wine has a reduction problem.
These compounds are:
Sulpher dioxide
Mercaptans
Dimethyl sulphide
Thiols
There is no hard data that suggests this is a consistant feature of screwcaps.
If these negative reduced aromas turn out to be a general scewcap hazard I have read a few papers that suggest it could be elimiated by
1. bottling with a bigger headspace
2. Using less sulpher dioxide at bottling
3. Avoiding the use of ascorbic acid (which is an antioxidant)
4. Taking care to remove all sulphide compounds in the wine at bottling.
I guess its a case of watch this space.
The response from Steve Kurtz.
Hi Ric,
Thanks for the heads up. I am not a member of the Auswine Forum so if you would like to respond for me that would be great. I'll give you my thoughts and perhaps you can just post them as is or worded better if you like. (I left it as is.)
The problem that Mike (KMP) and Allan (Big Kid)had, in my opinion, reflect a problem with the bottle seal as opposed to a problem with the wine. It is debatable as to whether the number of bottles affected by this problem would equal the amount affected by cork taint.
It is regrettable that this has occurred because it doesn't take too much bad press in the current climate to have an effect on the producer and potential sales. I too have had similar problems with screw cap wines and it is disappointing and frustrating.
I have not previously received any negative feed-back on Brett in this wine and given the SO 2 regime, which is designed to reduce the possibility of Brett, I believe this could be discounted as the problem.
The afore mentioned Sulphur regime is a reasonably standard program consisting of an addition at harvest of approx 100 grams per tonne, a boost post malo-ferment to a level of 20 - 25 ppm, checked 2 or 3 times per year and maintained at or about 20ppm and a top-up to 20ppm free/60ppm total at bottling. I can assure 'kirragc' that the fruit was not rotten nor was there sloppy winemaking, and as the problem was not evident at numerous tastings I doubt the SO 2 usage could be perceived as a mistake.
The wines are generally racked several times and I have always liked to splash the wine at this stage, as this helps to 'blow off' any of the reductive characteristic's that some forum members are keen to talk up.
Ric mentions a problem with how wines are reacting under screw cap as opposed to cork and this I believe is a total different issue to the problem mentioned by Mike in the initial post. I do agree with Ric in so far as the potential final wine style of a screw cap wine is concerned, I may have to alter the way wine is actually prepared and blended prior to bottling, to get a result that is similar as to what was intended when the wine was under cork. This could involve, but not be limited to, copper trials, cross vintage blending, sulphur regime etc. I believe that this is potentially an industry issue.
The 2004 vintage was bottled under screw cap, but I did use a different approach prior to bottling, plus I bottled a small amount under cork so that comparisons can be made. In hindsight I should have done this for the 03 too.
Ric, sorry this is long winded but it needs to be clarified. Hopefully I haven't missed the point or been to defensive. How do I contact Mike, as I would like to replace his bottles.
Cheers
Steve Kurtz
Hi Ric,
Thanks for the heads up. I am not a member of the Auswine Forum so if you would like to respond for me that would be great. I'll give you my thoughts and perhaps you can just post them as is or worded better if you like. (I left it as is.)
The problem that Mike (KMP) and Allan (Big Kid)had, in my opinion, reflect a problem with the bottle seal as opposed to a problem with the wine. It is debatable as to whether the number of bottles affected by this problem would equal the amount affected by cork taint.
It is regrettable that this has occurred because it doesn't take too much bad press in the current climate to have an effect on the producer and potential sales. I too have had similar problems with screw cap wines and it is disappointing and frustrating.
I have not previously received any negative feed-back on Brett in this wine and given the SO 2 regime, which is designed to reduce the possibility of Brett, I believe this could be discounted as the problem.
The afore mentioned Sulphur regime is a reasonably standard program consisting of an addition at harvest of approx 100 grams per tonne, a boost post malo-ferment to a level of 20 - 25 ppm, checked 2 or 3 times per year and maintained at or about 20ppm and a top-up to 20ppm free/60ppm total at bottling. I can assure 'kirragc' that the fruit was not rotten nor was there sloppy winemaking, and as the problem was not evident at numerous tastings I doubt the SO 2 usage could be perceived as a mistake.
The wines are generally racked several times and I have always liked to splash the wine at this stage, as this helps to 'blow off' any of the reductive characteristic's that some forum members are keen to talk up.
Ric mentions a problem with how wines are reacting under screw cap as opposed to cork and this I believe is a total different issue to the problem mentioned by Mike in the initial post. I do agree with Ric in so far as the potential final wine style of a screw cap wine is concerned, I may have to alter the way wine is actually prepared and blended prior to bottling, to get a result that is similar as to what was intended when the wine was under cork. This could involve, but not be limited to, copper trials, cross vintage blending, sulphur regime etc. I believe that this is potentially an industry issue.
The 2004 vintage was bottled under screw cap, but I did use a different approach prior to bottling, plus I bottled a small amount under cork so that comparisons can be made. In hindsight I should have done this for the 03 too.
Ric, sorry this is long winded but it needs to be clarified. Hopefully I haven't missed the point or been to defensive. How do I contact Mike, as I would like to replace his bottles.
Cheers
Steve Kurtz
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KMP
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Hi Steve
Thanks for the reply, really excellent. Its great to see such a quick and detailed response to consumer concerns. I’m quite happy with your explanation that the problem I have seen in the 2003 Boundary Row Shiraz is not a winemaking fault.
Your suggestion that it reflects “a problem with the bottle seal†suggests that the sealing discs that are part of the screwcap may be at fault. Is that what you are saying? From what I have read on screwcaps it seems that sealing discs are produced separately from the cap itself and shipped to cap manufacturers. Is your concern that the seals in some bottles have been adversely affected in some way? Perhaps contaminated? Or do you have some other concern?
I guess you can reply to this through TORB although registering on the forum would be welcomed by all, I’m sure.
As for replacing my bottles, thanks for the offer but its not necessary. If the third bottle has a problem I’ll do what I should have done in the first place and take it back to the retailer; I know them well and they will do the right thing. But next time we are in South Australia I might just have to drop by and get a taste of this Lunar Block. Don’t see that over here.
Mike
Thanks for the reply, really excellent. Its great to see such a quick and detailed response to consumer concerns. I’m quite happy with your explanation that the problem I have seen in the 2003 Boundary Row Shiraz is not a winemaking fault.
Your suggestion that it reflects “a problem with the bottle seal†suggests that the sealing discs that are part of the screwcap may be at fault. Is that what you are saying? From what I have read on screwcaps it seems that sealing discs are produced separately from the cap itself and shipped to cap manufacturers. Is your concern that the seals in some bottles have been adversely affected in some way? Perhaps contaminated? Or do you have some other concern?
I guess you can reply to this through TORB although registering on the forum would be welcomed by all, I’m sure.
As for replacing my bottles, thanks for the offer but its not necessary. If the third bottle has a problem I’ll do what I should have done in the first place and take it back to the retailer; I know them well and they will do the right thing. But next time we are in South Australia I might just have to drop by and get a taste of this Lunar Block. Don’t see that over here.
Mike
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KMP
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You have got to be impressed by Steve Kurtz. I just fired off an email to him because he asked where to send 3 bottles of his Boundary Row Shiraz. No sooner had I pressed send than I get another email which is obviously in reply to my post above. So here it is
Mike, can you just post for me that I will be looking into it with my bottling agent, who incidentally is very professional, and once sorted will get back to you.
Please let me know when you are here next and I'll shout you a Lunar. Try badgering your local guy, I've been trying to get the wine into the US since 1999.
Regards
And Ric says Steve never answers his email!
Mike
Mike, can you just post for me that I will be looking into it with my bottling agent, who incidentally is very professional, and once sorted will get back to you.
Please let me know when you are here next and I'll shout you a Lunar. Try badgering your local guy, I've been trying to get the wine into the US since 1999.
Regards
And Ric says Steve never answers his email!
Mike
Steve
I'm a bit worried about your choice of proof-reader. TORB isn't noted for his ability to get all the letters in each word in the right order
Please feel confident in signing up (if you wish to). I can understand the reservations and there may be subjects you feel it prudent not to comment on. However there are great benefits in this board having input from winemakers, viticulturists, and others in the business (ITB). Otherwise I'd never understand all this scientific mumbo-jumbo (actually I still don't but I'm bluffing
).
regards
Ian
I'm a bit worried about your choice of proof-reader. TORB isn't noted for his ability to get all the letters in each word in the right order
Please feel confident in signing up (if you wish to). I can understand the reservations and there may be subjects you feel it prudent not to comment on. However there are great benefits in this board having input from winemakers, viticulturists, and others in the business (ITB). Otherwise I'd never understand all this scientific mumbo-jumbo (actually I still don't but I'm bluffing
).
regards
Ian
I should have added that Steve is very responsive to queries about his wines and very concerned about customer satisfaction. We had some very detailed correspondence on this issue over a few weeks. The problem seemed quite intermittent - some bottles severely affected, some not, revealing a solid shiraz with lovely dark fruit. Steve, put it right and I am still enjoying his very classy Lunar Block.
I have noted this problem in numerous wines under stelvin - I think Ric may have noted something similar in an article a while back?? I recall a whole case of Gotham Shiraz that was undrinkable (again put right by the supplier). I'd say that a good 10-20% of the reds I have sampled under stelvin have been affected to varying degrees. It gives me a serious case of the sh*ts. Cork taint might affect one or two bottles in a case (unless someone is using very poor quality corks), this seal related fault can screw up a whole case!
Regards,
Allan
I have noted this problem in numerous wines under stelvin - I think Ric may have noted something similar in an article a while back?? I recall a whole case of Gotham Shiraz that was undrinkable (again put right by the supplier). I'd say that a good 10-20% of the reds I have sampled under stelvin have been affected to varying degrees. It gives me a serious case of the sh*ts. Cork taint might affect one or two bottles in a case (unless someone is using very poor quality corks), this seal related fault can screw up a whole case!
Regards,
Allan
