Prices for old wines

[Ratcatcher]

I've recently hunted around for old wines on the net. Aussie wines from the 60's and 70's.

I have to say I am amazed by the prices being charged. One of the e-bay stores I checked out was charging $80 to $120 + for wines that don't appear to be that remarkable. ie: they are not Peppermint Patty or Lindemans 1965 whatever or Tatachilla 1959, just run of the mill Penfolds, Yalumba and Seppelt releases.

I suppose they are quite rare but they are passing these wines onto people 2nd, 3rd or maybe 5th hand and there is a very good chance that the wines will be at best just drinkable and at worst vinegar. You'd have to think at least 50% of them would be spoilt to some degree. I wouldn't want to be paying $90 or $120 for a 1960's Seppelt Moyston Claret only to find it was undrinkable. I could buy a lot of good wine at Auswine or at auction for $120.

Who buys these wines at these prices? Does anyone think that these prices are remarkable?

[Alex F]

"If someone has gone to that trouble of holding onto them for so long surely they must be good?"

[crusty2]

I have experienced some people who buy at a deceased estate, with no reguard for provenance, and pass them on to the unsuspecting. The wine auction houses are increasingly demanding a history of the lot before assigning a value. This way they can obtain a higher realisation price and have a good return purchase from the happy new owner and old vendor. Can recommend Langtons (Melb. and Syd), Oddbins (Adel.) and Wickmans (Adel.). not sure about the others as i have not purchased, and consumed, from them.
Good Luck with your hunt. Most interesting and also very time consuming.

[n4sir]

I've recently hunted around for old wines on the net. Aussie wines from the 60's and 70's.

I have to say I am amazed by the prices being charged. One of the e-bay stores I checked out was charging $80 to $120 + for wines that don't appear to be that remarkable. ie: they are not Peppermint Patty or Lindemans 1965 whatever or Tatachilla 1959, just run of the mill Penfolds, Yalumba and Seppelt releases.

I suppose they are quite rare but they are passing these wines onto people 2nd, 3rd or maybe 5th hand and there is a very good chance that the wines will be at best just drinkable and at worst vinegar. You'd have to think at least 50% of them would be spoilt to some degree. I wouldn't want to be paying $90 or $120 for a 1960's Seppelt Moyston Claret only to find it was undrinkable. I could buy a lot of good wine at Auswine or at auction for $120.

Who buys these wines at these prices? Does anyone think that these prices are remarkable?

I suppose it would be just coincidence that the eBay vendor you're referring to is the guy buying up everything at that last Hobart auction you went to.

At least you may be in a position to actually get an idea of the condition of the items he's buying, and just how much margin he's making on the sale.

As for the rest of his possible customers, it's Caveat Emptor with a capital C.

Cheers,
Ian

[Ratcatcher]

Close. Not the same guy - located in different places altogether - assuming he was telling me the truth at the auction when I spoke to him.

But that is what prompted me to check it out.

At the auction I went to, wines that went for $15 - $40 are around $80 to $150 on the e-bay store sites.

My point is that if you are buying them from auction or estates to pass on to other buyers then provenance is difficult to establish and the wines are so old would probably be past it even if ideally stored.

I don't criticise the e-bay sellers for doing it. What I find amazing is that people are willing to risk up to $150 for a 30-40 year old wine with no proof of storage, with no reputation for being a great wine (like a Peppermint Pattie) that may be crap even if it were stored ideally.

I can understand people punting $20 or $30 at auction themselves but not shelling out over $100 for what probably has a greater than 50% chance of being rubbish.

I understand people would occasionally want a birthday or anniversary wine for a special occasion but I just can't believe there are enough of those people out there to sustain such prices in the long term.

[Crow]

Wouldn't touch ebay wines with a cork screw. Eevn at the reputable auction houses, older wines are a real risk - retailers are of course more expensive, but carry a responsilibilty as to the quality of the wine - which really only helps if you intend to consume the wine in the short term (prior to your storage being held responsible for any problem with the wine).

[Ratcatcher]

I'd take a punt on a funny old bottle for a few $ but not that much.

I just reckon there must be a lot of well intentioned husbands, wives, sons, daughters who buy an old wine for a partner or parent's special occasion who ends up very disappointed and jaded with the result.

[Alex F]

Its all lottery isn't it? I would (and have) and continually buy old bottles even though I get disappointing ones...

The reward is worth it when you find a good one, heck even opening one that you think would be good is worth it...

I just reckon there must be a lot of well intentioned husbands, wives, sons, daughters who buy an old wine for a partner or parent's special occasion who ends up very disappointed and jaded with the result.

Are there that many people who are interested in wine enough that they or their partners think they will want to drink a 30 - 40 year old bottle? I think as with most expensive gifts you would want to do your background research before diving into buying said bottle.

I've bought wine from ebay before, been very very very happy with them.

Standouts were 1986 Lindemans Museum Release Bin XXXX Shiraz (<$20)

and Tyrells Vat 1 1994 ($5).

All drinking very fine.


Alex

[Crow]

What ratio successes to failures (honestly...)

[Alex F]

Those two were good, 5 - 7 failures, another 4 were good, pending another 8 - 10.

[Ratcatcher]

I'm with you. Anything under $20 is worth a punt. I loved a $5 of White Frontignac 1988 I got at auction. Go figure.

I just can't understand taking a punt at $80 plus. Anyway, I suppose if you can afford it who cares.

As you said, if you were outlaying that cash and haven't done your research either you can afford to pay $100 for a bottle of vinegar or you are foolhardy.

[Mark S]

I'm also flabbergasted at the prices being asked for many of these run-of-the-mill bottles - having been an auction tragic for many years, I'm presumptuous enough to believe I have a reasonable grasp of Aussie wine pricing; many of the bottles seen on ebay & certain retailers for, say, around $100 can be bought at wine auctions (provided you're patient and watch the dozen or so auctions active australia-wide) for $20 or under. There's a potential 500% markup.

Most of the buyers are not wine-savvy in the slightest degree - often these old bottles are bought to commemorate birth years, anniversaries, you name it - and I'd suggest that in very many instances, the thrill of having a 1960 Wineland Fruity Lexia sitting on the table when your're celebrating your 46th b'day far outweighs the drinking (or not) of it.

Practically speaking, of course, the great majority of these wines are stuffed. Every once in a while there'll be a special sale, when one of the major auction houses has the good fortune to acquire a great cellar, with near-perfect provenance. On these rare occasions, the prices realized are often several times the normal price. I've seen early Wynns cabs ideally cellared, sell for between $200 and $500 per bottle.

Funny thing is, there seems a turning point in quality, in the mid 1960's - once you get bottles from 1966 or older, the strike rate for being drinkable, or indeed brilliant, goes right up. The 1970's are best forgotten, by and large. Don't know what the reason is, maybe the old timers had some kind of secret.

[GraemeG]

Funny thing is, there seems a turning point in quality, in the mid 1960's - once you get bottles from 1966 or older, the strike rate for being drinkable, or indeed brilliant, goes right up. The 1970's are best forgotten, by and large. Don't know what the reason is, maybe the old timers had some kind of secret.

I've just been reading Nicholas Faith's Liquid Gold, and I think the phenomenon you identify can be ascribed to nothing more mysterious than greatly increased production volumes...
cheers,
Graeme

[vt]

Wouldn't touch ebay wines with a cork screw. Eevn at the reputable auction houses, older wines are a real risk - retailers are of course more expensive, but carry a responsilibilty as to the quality of the wine - which really only helps if you intend to consume the wine in the short term (prior to your storage being held responsible for any problem with the wine).

I wouldn't even be so sure of this statement here

There is a wine store in North Melbourne that has an upstairs section with old wines...AND A BIG SIGN declaring quality not assured.

The last time I was there, there had a great deal of 20/30/40 even 50 year olds, mostly ex MW and Langtons stock.

[Alex F]

thats pretty interesting, what does the law say on this wine: if the retailer does not declare buyer beware are they responsible if the wine is not up to scratch (i.e. past it)? How would this allow for personal preferences in taste and so on?

It would be kind of worrying if you bought a 1991 Grange from a retailer and found it to be cooked or something...

[vt]

I suspect it doesnt pass the Trades Practices Act, but would be used to justify knowcking people back when they bring a bottle of 1971 red wine vinegar to complain.

[Crow]

I understand that if you return a recently purchased bottle of wine from a retailer and it is off - and you take that bottle back, in reasonable time as evidence - you would be entitiled to another bottle or a refund....will try to check it out.

Adam.

[Alex F]

so in a sense wineries are responsible for faulty corks as well?

It seems like the blame can be pushed to far many places... i.e. in the end getting someone to be responsible is quite difficult.

[Crow]

My understanding is the retailer must replace or refund - and then the retailer approaches the winery - presumably, if cork taint is higher than acceptable (I know, anything more than 0 is unacceptable) the winery will approach the cork supplier....

[silkwood]

If a product is sold with notice of potential or actual damage/marking (for example ex-display) and is highlighted as such on the invoice/receipt it may be sold without warranty or return option. If a seller simply says "No Returns" this doesn't mean anything. If the product is then not up to the advertised or implied service you can return it, no questions asked. Don't fall for the "we only give credit notes, not cash back" routine, it's not legal (certain caveats apply).

Cheers,