In today's Melbourne Age Ben Canadier poses the question Is big bad? in discussing the dominance of a three large megacompanies and the brands that they control.
Apparently people are very surprised to find how many common brands are owned by Fosters, Hardys and Orlando. So much so thaat they are prepared to go to the extremes of pinching the list of Fosters brands fronm the back of a dunny door in Hickinbothams winery...
But the point is that so much of our supermarket shelf space is stuffed with fairly homogenous wine made from a narrow range of French varieties. The major creativity seems to be in the marketing department where they dream up silly names for the same product.
At the same time we can be comforted to know that there are lots more boutiques around and they are producing more varied and better wines than ever.
Ben's article is at
http://www.theage.com.au/news/epicure/i ... 23985.html
Disclaimer: I own shares in Fosters; I drink their beer but try to avoid their wine, with a couple of notable exceptions.
Is Big bad
Is Big bad
Darby Higgs
http://www.vinodiversity.com
http://www.vinodiversity.com
Ill sit on the fence with this one.....
Sure the big guys are responsible for a lot of the homogenous uninspiring offerings that fill the supermarket shelves, but this is not all at the expense of the smaller producers. In reality how many smaller producers can afford to be duking it out in the sub $10 category, which is essentially what supermarket shelves are filled with.
And whilst a lot of the big company product is ordinary, a lot of it is bloody good too. For me, we have never been more spoilt for choice, and there has never been more good wine available to the consumer. Similarly you could argue that there has never been more bad wine available, but the comments are mutually exclusive. For me boutique and varied does not always add up to better.
Smaller producers also benefit through the opening up of export markets, marketing research, technical R&D, and increased consumer awareness. Much of this is at least partly attributable to the bigger operations.
Im all for supporting the little guy, and philosophically opposed to the off premise dominance of the multi's, but this does not make the big guys bad.
LL
Sure the big guys are responsible for a lot of the homogenous uninspiring offerings that fill the supermarket shelves, but this is not all at the expense of the smaller producers. In reality how many smaller producers can afford to be duking it out in the sub $10 category, which is essentially what supermarket shelves are filled with.
And whilst a lot of the big company product is ordinary, a lot of it is bloody good too. For me, we have never been more spoilt for choice, and there has never been more good wine available to the consumer. Similarly you could argue that there has never been more bad wine available, but the comments are mutually exclusive. For me boutique and varied does not always add up to better.
Smaller producers also benefit through the opening up of export markets, marketing research, technical R&D, and increased consumer awareness. Much of this is at least partly attributable to the bigger operations.
Im all for supporting the little guy, and philosophically opposed to the off premise dominance of the multi's, but this does not make the big guys bad.
LL
I think it's just scratching the surface regarding the possible effects of big corporations on the modern wine landscape, and the many crossroads it faces.
Another major effect has to be the big two retailers buying up so many (previously) independent outlets/chains.
Take a look at the glut of wine at the moment, add in the recent approval of discount "home brands" to hit the shelves, and you have something else to take away retail space from the small wineries.
Long established grape growers everywhere have been put through the squeeze or dumped by the big boys while they have bought up/planted massive new plantings. Some lucky ones have been scooped up by (usually new) small winemakers who are picking up some seriously good old vine fruit for virtually peanuts, but with the retail outlet space shrinking and/or takeovers by the big boys how long will this last?
Another worrying thing that has come up in the last month is the research being done on the possible salinity effects in the Barossa courtesy of the Murray pipeline to irrigate these massive new plantations.
Early results apparently have been pretty disturbing, and most worrying of all is that it's the oldest vines in the valley with the deepest root systems that will be affected first.
It's reports like this that makes me amazingly begin to think another vine pull is warranted - pull out all this new crap, shut down the pipeline, and save the Barossa's most valuable resources instead of this profit driven madness.
My 2c worth,
Ian
Another major effect has to be the big two retailers buying up so many (previously) independent outlets/chains.
Take a look at the glut of wine at the moment, add in the recent approval of discount "home brands" to hit the shelves, and you have something else to take away retail space from the small wineries.
Long established grape growers everywhere have been put through the squeeze or dumped by the big boys while they have bought up/planted massive new plantings. Some lucky ones have been scooped up by (usually new) small winemakers who are picking up some seriously good old vine fruit for virtually peanuts, but with the retail outlet space shrinking and/or takeovers by the big boys how long will this last?
Another worrying thing that has come up in the last month is the research being done on the possible salinity effects in the Barossa courtesy of the Murray pipeline to irrigate these massive new plantations.
Early results apparently have been pretty disturbing, and most worrying of all is that it's the oldest vines in the valley with the deepest root systems that will be affected first.
It's reports like this that makes me amazingly begin to think another vine pull is warranted - pull out all this new crap, shut down the pipeline, and save the Barossa's most valuable resources instead of this profit driven madness.
My 2c worth,
Ian
Last edited by n4sir on Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.
Re: Is Big bad
darby wrote:But the point is that so much of our supermarket shelf space is stuffed with fairly homogenous wine made from a narrow range of French varieties. The major creativity seems to be in the marketing department where they dream up silly names for the same product.
Here is the problem. If big firms just want to buy brands for the 'recognition factor' and regard ALL of their output as just FMCG product, they will shot themselves in the foot. The old Southcorp did a reasonable job of maintaining diversity; they seemed to let Devil's Lair, Coldstream Hills, for example, run their own race. Yet they did emasculate Seaview, Tollana, even Seppelt, to a degree, so they weren't perfect. But Blass always seemed to emasculate itself; Jamiesons Run (as for Robertson's Well) started life as one wine then became a 'brand'.
Constant changes of region and style may not cause problems below $20 a bottle, but I imagine that folks buy St Henri or Jacaranda Ridge or Wolf Blass Black Label expecting a certain style, and if marketers screw around with it they will suffer the consequences.
cheers,
Graeme
What's St Henri? Isn't that made by the same people who make Rawson's Retreat? I don't think I would bother with it.
Cheers
Cheers
Darby Higgs
http://www.vinodiversity.com
http://www.vinodiversity.com
darby wrote:What's St Henri? Isn't that made by the same people who make Rawson's Retreat? I don't think I would bother with it.
Cheers
Yes, you're on the right track, of course. There are plenty of people (forum members?) who would have bought Koonunga Hill in the past as a good quaffer and even medium-term cellar proposition. Not any more, I think...
cheers,
Graeme
darby wrote:What's St Henri? Isn't that made by the same people who make Rawson's Retreat? I don't think I would bother with it.
Cheers
And quite possibly Australias best example of Shiraz...for someone who preaches diversity you have a very closed attitude and mind to some things. When some of these boutiques even get close to the track record and quality of this wine, let alone making vaguely drinkable wines from obscure grapes (ooh yes it is shit but we are still learning about this grape . it is only our 5th vintage.*yawn) then we can go somewhere closer to bucketing a lot of very great wines with a blanket statement and maintain a little credibility.
GW
My point about St Henri, and other premium Penfolds wines is that the brand is being undermined by the company (under several managements) bringing in more of the basic stuff under the same name. I still occasionally drink St H, but it is now out of my price range as is my other erstwhile favourite 389.
As a company Fosters/Blass/Mildara has very little innovation. Apart from the acquisition of T'Gallant their range of wines has not changed for a couple of decades. Casella by contrast is moving into new varieties, try their yellowtail Pinot G for example. You will find a few good wines form new varieties at Brown Brothers and Yalumba as well.
On another front it was small/medium winemakers from Clare who got us moving out of the cork habit.
Of course new wines go through a development phase, sometimes quicker than you think.
The fortunate point is that we have room in the industry for manufacturers of supermarket wines as well as the artisans who are doing something different. Individual consumer preferences evolve, as does the market as a whole.
We are much better off now as consumers than we were even five years ago let alone as we were in the 1960s when we were told what to drink by some very boring people. see Jancis Robinsons 'Confessions of a wine lover for example.
As a company Fosters/Blass/Mildara has very little innovation. Apart from the acquisition of T'Gallant their range of wines has not changed for a couple of decades. Casella by contrast is moving into new varieties, try their yellowtail Pinot G for example. You will find a few good wines form new varieties at Brown Brothers and Yalumba as well.
On another front it was small/medium winemakers from Clare who got us moving out of the cork habit.
Of course new wines go through a development phase, sometimes quicker than you think.
The fortunate point is that we have room in the industry for manufacturers of supermarket wines as well as the artisans who are doing something different. Individual consumer preferences evolve, as does the market as a whole.
We are much better off now as consumers than we were even five years ago let alone as we were in the 1960s when we were told what to drink by some very boring people. see Jancis Robinsons 'Confessions of a wine lover for example.
Darby Higgs
http://www.vinodiversity.com
http://www.vinodiversity.com
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Darby,
I can't agree with you here.
As much as I am disappointed with Penfolds in recent years, they are indeed innovating. For example, RWT in 1997, Yattarna (mid 90s), Bin 60a and Block 42 (RWT) are new premium labels. (Penfolds tried for years to get the right formula for "White Grange"). Granted these may come at the expense of fruit quality in traditional labels, but it is fair to say many (wealthy) wine lovers are witing in great anticipation for the Block 42 and Bin 60a. I can't ever remember a new label(s) receiving so much hype prior to release. I am told they had an 02 Grenache which was superb (have not tried it)
Also, from memory in the late 90s, Mildara Blass (at the time) tried unsuccessfully to market single vineyard Coonawarra wines. Indeed Wynns has done it too with Harold (??) and Johnson's Block in recent years.
I think this points to innovation - not always successful, but innovation nonetheless.
Cheers
Mike
I can't agree with you here.
As much as I am disappointed with Penfolds in recent years, they are indeed innovating. For example, RWT in 1997, Yattarna (mid 90s), Bin 60a and Block 42 (RWT) are new premium labels. (Penfolds tried for years to get the right formula for "White Grange"). Granted these may come at the expense of fruit quality in traditional labels, but it is fair to say many (wealthy) wine lovers are witing in great anticipation for the Block 42 and Bin 60a. I can't ever remember a new label(s) receiving so much hype prior to release. I am told they had an 02 Grenache which was superb (have not tried it)
Also, from memory in the late 90s, Mildara Blass (at the time) tried unsuccessfully to market single vineyard Coonawarra wines. Indeed Wynns has done it too with Harold (??) and Johnson's Block in recent years.
I think this points to innovation - not always successful, but innovation nonetheless.
Cheers
Mike
Mike Hawkins wrote:Darby,
I can't agree with you here.
Also, from memory in the late 90s, Mildara Blass (at the time) tried unsuccessfully to market single vineyard Coonawarra wines. Indeed Wynns has done it too with Harold (??) and Johnson's Block in recent years.
I think this points to innovation - not always successful, but innovation nonetheless.
Cheers
Mike
I think the cynics out there (like me) may suggest the single vineyard labels may be a way of squeezing extra money for wine deemed not good enough for the flagships.
Wynn's might argue that the Harold & Johnson's are to show off a special parcel of fruit, but I suspect there's monetary motives too, especially when there's no JR/Michael for 2001, and the standard Shiraz & CS are being so heavily discounted.
It was the same for the Jamieson's Run Single Vineyard wines you mentioned, which were originally in the Robertson's Well range.
Cheers,
Ian
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.
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Baby Chickpea
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:17 pm
Mike Hawkins wrote:Darby,
I can't agree with you here.
....Granted these may come at the expense of fruit quality in traditional labels, but it is fair to say many (wealthy) wine lovers are witing in great anticipation for the Block 42 and Bin 60a. I can't ever remember a new label(s) receiving so much hype prior to release. I am told they had an 02 Grenache which was superb (have not tried it)
...
Cheers
Mike
Mike, not a lot of anticipation in NZ and UK I can tell you with many merchants having loads of the two special bins on offer at half the price compared to what we are paying in Australia!
Danny
The voyage of discovery lies not in finding new landscapes but in having new eyes. We must never be afraid to go too far, for success lies just beyond - Marcel Proust
The voyage of discovery lies not in finding new landscapes but in having new eyes. We must never be afraid to go too far, for success lies just beyond - Marcel Proust
darby wrote:
As a company Fosters/Blass/Mildara has very little innovation. Apart from the acquisition of T'Gallant their range of wines has not changed for a couple of decades. Casella by contrast is moving into new varieties, try their yellowtail Pinot G for example. You will find a few good wines form new varieties at Brown Brothers and Yalumba as well.
Hmmm, no mention of Seppelt and the vast array of grape varieties they vinify. And I believe they are now part of the Fosters group.
I think the cynics out there (like me) may suggest the single vineyard labels may be a way of squeezing extra money for wine deemed not good enough for the flagships.
Wynn's might argue that the Harold & Johnson's are to show off a special parcel of fruit, but I suspect there's monetary motives too, especially when there's no JR/Michael for 2001, and the standard Shiraz & CS are being so heavily discounted.
I suspect there is monetary, marketing, winemaking and other motives at play, but to suggest it is all a cash is I think a bit off the mark. Wynns have had to suffer the ignomy of having their flagships cut in half, and their respected Cabernet get discounted into the ground, the need to produce something different becomes relevant on many fronts. As for Harolds and Johnson's I think they are smart wines, fairly priced.
Smaller boutiques play the single vineyard card ad nauseum, I dont see why Wynns could not hope to achieve similar outcomes. Otherwise why employ Sue Hodder?. Surely they could just ship it all off to Karadoc to process with the rest of the swill. It would save money....wouldnt it?
LL
Baby Chickpea wrote:Mike Hawkins wrote:Darby,
I can't agree with you here.
....Granted these may come at the expense of fruit quality in traditional labels, but it is fair to say many (wealthy) wine lovers are witing in great anticipation for the Block 42 and Bin 60a. I can't ever remember a new label(s) receiving so much hype prior to release. I am told they had an 02 Grenache which was superb (have not tried it)
...
Cheers
Mike
Mike, not a lot of anticipation in NZ and UK I can tell you with many merchants having loads of the two special bins on offer at half the price compared to what we are paying in Australia!
Danny,
Hard to see how people are not anticipating these wines as they are not released until 2007 (do you know something I don't?)
BTW Do you know anywhere in NZ I can still buy some at half the price in Oz?
Caros had a bit, all gone now.
/ Jay
“There are no standards of taste in wine. Each mans own taste is the standard, and a majority vote cannot decide for him or in any slightest degree affect the supremacy of his own standard". Mark Twain.
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Danny,
From a purely selfish perspective, I hope the same holds true here in the US. Perhaps these two wines will get "lost" in the hysteria surrounding 2005 Bordeaux and wines like the 03 La La's, 03 d'Yquem and 96 Krug which I understand will be released next year. If they are as good as the Bin 90a, I will be buying some.
Cheers
Mike
From a purely selfish perspective, I hope the same holds true here in the US. Perhaps these two wines will get "lost" in the hysteria surrounding 2005 Bordeaux and wines like the 03 La La's, 03 d'Yquem and 96 Krug which I understand will be released next year. If they are as good as the Bin 90a, I will be buying some.
Cheers
Mike
Is big bad?
You betcha when:
1) It results in less real choice to the consumer
2) It results in less returns for the growers and other real investors in Australia's wine industry.
Too much of the decisions of todays industry are based on the need for the big companies to make a quick buck for their shareholders, with quality winemaking , winemaker grower relationships coming a long way down the list.
I blame the ACCC for allowing significant market share of the retail sector to be in too few hands and also allowing some of the huge wine giants to be formed in the first place.
Ben's article just misses the point. Asking T' Gallant about the benifits of joining a big company are not really addressing the issue. Perhaps he should ask some of my mates who've had their grape contracts busted so some wineries can get some cheap fruit....
I for one value my growers more than this filth!
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
Well its late or early depending on your where you are in the world time scheme. More importantly, is the fact that I love wine. Now I support the underdog. However, I buy wine to drink now or in the future. I love wines that over deliver on price point. I love to bag the big corporates if possible however, credit should be given or acknowledged where due. Last night had the Penfolds cellar reserve Pinot Noir 04. I belieive a great example of Aussie Pinot Noir (current release). Spent 18 months in NZ and tasted some great Pinot Noir credit to NZ. I do not like NZ (Aucklanders) attitude to OZ. I detest the corporate takeover of wine outlets when my local shopping centre bottle shop turns into BWS (tradegy). The economies of scale make mergers inevitable. But good wine is good wine whoever makes, markets or controls the distribution. Those in the know, know where to go. The varieties of a global business make for interesting times. Some corporate takeovers will be for the better, some no impact others will have negative impact. Lets judge whats in the bottle and go from there. Cheers PeterO