Is it common practice within the industry to user cheaper corks for lower ranking bottles and better quality corks for ‘Icon’ wines?
After having heard this from a winemaker this afternoon I was taken aback as they acknowledged that the cheaper the cork, the higher rate of TCA taint.
They could justify this though as most people who buy these wines either cannot detect the taint or are unaware of their rights of return. People who buy the icon wines can detect the taint and do return bottles.
At the end of the day this decision is purely economic and whilst I cannot agree that this is the best way to manage the brand they, and many others, have obviously crunched the numbers and this way is the best financial result for them.
How much is a cork worth anyway?
Corks again.........................
Im no authority whatsoever but I can certainly confirm that corks are available in many varying qualities at many different pricepoints. Handpicked, Reference 1, Reference 2, Composite, Plastic, and a hell of a lot of options in between.
It is a fair assumption that most premium wines have premium corks, and most commercial or budget priced wines do not. Economics certainly comes into the reasoning, but I doubt very much that the use of a lesser quality cork in a lesser quality wine is an attempt by producers to hoodwink uneducated consumers.
I think you will find that a lower quality cork is just one of the many concessions that are made by a produer to get a certain wine on the shelf at a certain price. This economic rationalism would extend to fruit selection, winemaking inputs, bottle selection, labels, caps etc etc etc.
Similarly with a premium label. The standard unit cost will be higher because the producer is spending more on inputs, on a much smaller volume. Hence the cost to the producer to replace a 'corked' wine is greater, and worth the extra outlay for a premium cork (also longevity issues to consider). Quite simply you get what you pay for.
Oh...I forgot to mention there are some really smart, shrewd producers out there......they use screwcaps!
LL
It is a fair assumption that most premium wines have premium corks, and most commercial or budget priced wines do not. Economics certainly comes into the reasoning, but I doubt very much that the use of a lesser quality cork in a lesser quality wine is an attempt by producers to hoodwink uneducated consumers.
I think you will find that a lower quality cork is just one of the many concessions that are made by a produer to get a certain wine on the shelf at a certain price. This economic rationalism would extend to fruit selection, winemaking inputs, bottle selection, labels, caps etc etc etc.
Similarly with a premium label. The standard unit cost will be higher because the producer is spending more on inputs, on a much smaller volume. Hence the cost to the producer to replace a 'corked' wine is greater, and worth the extra outlay for a premium cork (also longevity issues to consider). Quite simply you get what you pay for.
Oh...I forgot to mention there are some really smart, shrewd producers out there......they use screwcaps!
LL
After years of perservering with cork i can say the following
Higher grades of cork Ref1 etc have exactly he same incidence of TCA as the rest. The corks are selected on the basis of cosmetic appeal (looks) not TCA.
A ref 1 cork is around 45cents
Ref2 say 36 (but I haven't used them in years)
Screwcaps aren't theanswer to everything as they are cruddy on big reds....Done the trials to prove it.
We are going to the Diam cork for all our reds for the 05's. Bottled the first of them Mon and Tues.
Besides no TCA there is also No random-ox which IMHO is justa s big an issue.
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
smithy wrote:8)
After years of perservering with cork i can say the following
Higher grades of cork Ref1 etc have exactly he same incidence of TCA as the rest. The corks are selected on the basis of cosmetic appeal (looks) not TCA.
A ref 1 cork is around 45cents
Ref2 say 36 (but I haven't used them in years)
Screwcaps aren't theanswer to everything as they are cruddy on big reds....Done the trials to prove it.
We are going to the Diam cork for all our reds for the 05's. Bottled the first of them Mon and Tues.
Besides no TCA there is also No random-ox which IMHO is justa s big an issue.
Cheers
Smithy
What cost for the Diam?
Graham
Chardonnay: A drink you have when there is no RED wine, the beer hasn't arrived and the water may be polluted
The cost on a Diam is $0.26 and we then use a $0.14 capsule which you don't need for the $0.14 screwcap.
I'm sure some of the people who love their screwcaps also love the price saving.
I've seen it said that the price is the same and they are using screwcaps purely for quality reasons.
If the price is the same they were using pretty damned ordinary corks!
I'm not complaining either about the cost of the Diams! However, if I could find a really good supplier of Ref1 corks with really low TCA and really low random-ox and really good consistency, I'd use them in a twink!
Personally I think its like looking for unicorns!
I just hope that the customers accept what still looks like a composite cork.
Its just that you can't ignore your own trials, and know that in 10 years time the wine will be sound clean and still the same as all its mates in the box!
Cheers
Smithy
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
smithy wrote:8)
I'm sure some of the people who love their screwcaps also love the price saving.
I've seen it said that the price is the same and they are using screwcaps purely for quality reasons.
If the price is the same they were using pretty damned ordinary corks!
Given that we're five years on from the first 're-use' of screwcaps, and the volume increase has been pretty significant, I'd expect there might even be some savings by now. I understood in the early days that, if you allowed for the premium you paid for the threaded bottle, there was no saving to be had (ignoring any capital costs of modifying your bottling line)?
You don't think sulphur treatment adjsutment was the solution to your screwcap trials?
Don't know about Diam much, I must say. No TCA and no oxidation is the aim, of course. Guess we'll find out in due course...
cheers,
Graeme
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Gavin Trott
- Posts: 1860
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- Location: Adelaide
- Contact:
smithy wrote:8)
The cost on a Diam is $0.26 and we then use a $0.14 capsule which you don't need for the $0.14 screwcap.
I'm sure some of the people who love their screwcaps also love the price saving.
I've seen it said that the price is the same and they are using screwcaps purely for quality reasons.
If the price is the same they were using pretty damned ordinary corks!
I'm not complaining either about the cost of the Diams! However, if I could find a really good supplier of Ref1 corks with really low TCA and really low random-ox and really good consistency, I'd use them in a twink!
Personally I think its like looking for unicorns!
I just hope that the customers accept what still looks like a composite cork.
Its just that you can't ignore your own trials, and know that in 10 years time the wine will be sound clean and still the same as all its mates in the box!
Cheers
Smithy
Cheers
Smithy
I want
Every bottle stored together etc to taste the same, and age the same, or very close to it!. hence no huge bottle variation.
No ramdom oxidisation.
No TCA or other taints.
Easy to open.
Easy to store.
Diam, Glass stopper, Screw Cap or something better not yet invented will not matter too much to me, as long as it does what it is supposed to do.
Currently corks simply are not doing it.
Just my $0.02 worth.
regards
Gavin Trott
Gavin Trott
smithy wrote:8)
The cost on a Diam is $0.26 and we then use a $0.14 capsule which you don't need for the $0.14 screwcap.
I'm sure some of the people who love their screwcaps also love the price saving.
I've seen it said that the price is the same and they are using screwcaps purely for quality reasons.
If the price is the same they were using pretty damned ordinary corks!
I'm not complaining either about the cost of the Diams! However, if I could find a really good supplier of Ref1 corks with really low TCA and really low random-ox and really good consistency, I'd use them in a twink!
Personally I think its like looking for unicorns!
I just hope that the customers accept what still looks like a composite cork.
Its just that you can't ignore your own trials, and know that in 10 years time the wine will be sound clean and still the same as all its mates in the box!
Cheers
Smithy
Cheers
Smithy
Andrew
Will you be adding "Sealed with Diam" on the back label?
I would love to see a list of who is using Diam. Would make my purchases easy.
Graham
Chardonnay: A drink you have when there is no RED wine, the beer hasn't arrived and the water may be polluted
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Serge Birbrair
This is an excellent thread!
It made it all the way to GBU for 2/08/2006
http://www.winetalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2305
It made it all the way to GBU for 2/08/2006
http://www.winetalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2305
Diams really do look like they will be the answer.
As far as puttingit on the back label...No, not yet.
I just think it will be something else to confuse the customer.
The idea of a list of wineries using Diam is a great idea.
When Dean Bannister from Diam gets back in Aust we might ask him for a list of wineries using Diam.
Thats not to say they use it for all wines, but its a great place to start.
As far as the trial, I try to get a hold of lots of big tannic reds under screwcap and age them for 2 years. I also bottled half a Shiraz Durif under ROTE and half under cork.
Initially preferred the ROTE, but by 12 months preferred the cork.
Got more pronounced with age.
Damned!
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
smithy wrote:8)
Diams really do look like they will be the answer.
As far as puttingit on the back label...No, not yet.
I just think it will be something else to confuse the customer.
The idea of a list of wineries using Diam is a great idea.
When Dean Bannister from Diam gets back in Aust we might ask him for a list of wineries using Diam.
Thats not to say they use it for all wines, but its a great place to start.
As far as the trial, I try to get a hold of lots of big tannic reds under screwcap and age them for 2 years. I also bottled half a Shiraz Durif under ROTE and half under cork.
Initially preferred the ROTE, but by 12 months preferred the cork.
Got more pronounced with age.
Damned!
Cheers
Smithy
Thanks for the response from everyone.
I just found it disheartening to find out that companies would use a lower grade product that they know has a much higher rate of taint.
Use ROTE seals for the cheapies then and Diam for Icons. Then everybody should be happy.
smithy wrote:
As far as the trial, I try to get a hold of lots of big tannic reds under screwcap and age them for 2 years. I also bottled half a Shiraz Durif under ROTE and half under cork.
Initially preferred the ROTE, but by 12 months preferred the cork.
Got more pronounced with age.
Damned!
Cheers
Smithy
Smithy
Thanks for this. There's always interest in the results of trials, but I was surprised you stopped after two years. It's quite feasible that the cork was more advanced and thus showed better after two years - perhaps in 5 years the order will have reversed again - or maybe not. If you have any more matched pairs left, then please let us know how they stack up further down the line.
regards
Ian