I know buying wine in Oz ain't perfect, but....

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GraemeG
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I know buying wine in Oz ain't perfect, but....

Post by GraemeG »

...I've been as guilty as anyone here whinging about the price of imported wines (for example), but occasionally you read something that reminds you how civilised we are (at least in some ways. Here's a thread on WLDG (the new style, user hyper-unfriendly forum) that brings home just how well we live compared to the poor oppressed citizens of the US trying to buy the product of their own vineyards:

shipping wine

To think that I can ring up Brokenwood, Tahbilk, Grosset, Moorilla, Cullen, & whoever makes wine in Qld all in the one afternoon and have 6 cases of wine on their way to me inside 24 hours puts at least some of our local complaints into perspective!

Read recently a book called 'Prohibition' which was an offshoot of a BBC 6-part TV series, documenting the 'great experiment' in the US in the 20s. Hugely entertaining stuff. "Prohibition is better than no liquor at all". :D
What a shambles of a system they have in the US! Poor devils.

cheers,
Graeme
cheers,
Graeme[/url]

Davo
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Post by Davo »

Yeh but, they can still buy guns and ship them wherever.

Strange bastards that lot. :roll:

Daryl Douglas
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Re: I know buying wine in Oz ain't perfect, but....

Post by Daryl Douglas »

GraemeG wrote:...I've been as guilty as anyone here whinging about the price of imported wines (for example), but occasionally you read something that reminds you how civilised we are (at least in some ways. Here's a thread on WLDG (the new style, user hyper-unfriendly forum) that brings home just how well we live compared to the poor oppressed citizens of the US trying to buy the product of their own vineyards:

shipping wine

To think that I can ring up Brokenwood, Tahbilk, Grosset, Moorilla, Cullen, & whoever makes wine in Qld all in the one afternoon and have 6 cases of wine on their way to me inside 24 hours puts at least some of our local complaints into perspective!

Read recently a book called 'Prohibition' which was an offshoot of a BBC 6-part TV series, documenting the 'great experiment' in the US in the 20s. Hugely entertaining stuff. "Prohibition is better than no liquor at all". :D
What a shambles of a system they have in the US! Poor devils.

cheers,
Graeme
cheers,
Graeme[/url]


Tahbilk's customer service is as good as it gets - absolutely the best. I ordered a 6pk of their "Other Rhones(viognier & roussanne)" online the Sunday before last. Apparently I stuffed up the plastic's expiry date, got a message at work the next day, Monday, to call Tahbilk - the wines arrived last Thursday. The Purbricks seem to be about the best organised people in the Australian wine industry. I've even started buying more from the Wine Society, rather than an obligatory once-a-year buy to retain active membership, since Mark Purbrick has been CEO. Cullen's pretty good too but product/freight cost, variable quality and delivery time to here has caused me to cease cellar door purchases. Don't know about the others you've mentioned but hey, I'm a dedicated Tahbilkiste. Hmmm, it's several years since I last tried the sangiovese or the cab franc. The 1860s Vines 95 was superb last Xmas.

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Andrew Jordan
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Post by Andrew Jordan »

Graham,

Thanks for the link. Interesting read. Experienced this a bit while living in the States, especially while we were in Texas, and trying to ship wine from Napa! They are slowly changing the laws but it will be a long time before they have the freedom we take for granted here in Oz.

By the way this reminds of an amusing story of a friend of mind who lives in Seattle. He was visiting Italy, and wanted to ship a couple of cases of Brunello's back home. However, with the shipping laws and the customs duty, he was not having much luck finding someone who was willing to ship his wine back to the states, unless of course it was going to cost him an arm and a leg. However, just before he flew home he met a wine maker at a small boutique winery who offered to send his wine to the states for him and only charging him shipping costs plus insurance. My mate asked why he could do it so cheap and why everyone else was so expensive? His reply was that he has a secret and that he ships heaps of wine to the States without a problem. So my mate left, thinking that he will probably never see the wine again! However, when he arrived home, 2 days later the 2 cases of wine arrived in excellent condition. He then realised how they got through customs, etc without any questions. Written on the packaging ticket in large, bold writing was: FOR LABORATORY USE ONLY. :shock:
Cheers
AJ

Cabernet is ... and will always be ... KING!

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Craig(NZ)
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Post by Craig(NZ) »

neudorf in nz is very efficient

at their vintage release (which would be the busiest time for mail order), I can order on the net on a monday night and it is with me in auckland on wednesday lunchtime all the way from nelson.

always has been like that, very very impressive service

Jeff W
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Post by Jeff W »

Davo wrote:Yeh but, they can still buy guns and ship them wherever.

Strange bastards that lot. :roll:


Hi Davo,

Perhaps a bit off topic for a wine forum.....don't ya think?

As an American myself, please be assured that there is a pretty diverse group of people amongst all those "bastards"....many of which might even share your sentiments that there are too many guns around. Perhaps some might find being called a bastard slightly offensive.

It kinda made me laugh...here's a guy with an Avitar holding up a dead fish (that I assume he has has just killed) talking about those bastards and their guns.

Since your so enlightened, here's a thought for ya......If fish could scream there would be no more fishing.....but hey...that's probably a bit deep for ya Davo.

Being new to the board....It's guys like you that make me wonder if this is really a place for me....Don't you think your comments are just a bit insulting (as well as a little off the topic)?

Sorry for the rant...however I really hope that others would agree that broad brush attitudes like this are really not the way to go.

With warm personal regards.

well.....just call me a bastard I guess

Milwaukee Twin
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Post by Milwaukee Twin »

Take no offence. "bastard" are only use on their buddies(strictly Ozztralian speaking :shock: )

Ian S
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Post by Ian S »

Jeff W wrote:
Davo wrote:Yeh but, they can still buy guns and ship them wherever.

Strange bastards that lot. :roll:


Hi Davo,

Perhaps a bit off topic for a wine forum.....don't ya think?

As an American myself, please be assured that there is a pretty diverse group of people amongst all those "bastards"....many of which might even share your sentiments that there are too many guns around. Perhaps some might find being called a bastard slightly offensive.

It kinda made me laugh...here's a guy with an Avitar holding up a dead fish (that I assume he has has just killed) talking about those bastards and their guns.

Since your so enlightened, here's a thought for ya......If fish could scream there would be no more fishing.....but hey...that's probably a bit deep for ya Davo.

Being new to the board....It's guys like you that make me wonder if this is really a place for me....Don't you think your comments are just a bit insulting (as well as a little off the topic)?

Sorry for the rant...however I really hope that others would agree that broad brush attitudes like this are really not the way to go.

With warm personal regards.

well.....just call me a bastard I guess

Jeff
Welcome.
I feel you've probably taken Davo's comment wrongly - I didn't read it as an aggresive insult at individuals, more amazement at the priorities of the law-makers and politicians. To give some context, the other popular Aussie wine forum welcomes visitors with the phrase "Get stuffed". When I'm in Aus I'd occasionally be called a "Pommie Bastard", but it's done with a smile and in the Aussie tradition of ribbing. On the whole they're not subtle about it, but there's rarely any malice. They'll even say it as a compliment (well not the Pommie bit!) e.g that bastard's got guts.

They're a friendly bunch here (much more so than e-bob from what I've seen, which has a tendency towards abuse that's quite personal and not jokey). Stick around and enjoy & don't be afraid to post notes on any decent US stuff you try (or even better, Italian)

regards

Ian

Jeff W
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Post by Jeff W »

Milwaukee Twin wrote:Take no offence. "bastard" are only use on their buddies(strictly Ozztralian speaking :shock: )


Much appreciated. I have a number of good Australian friends and have already been called (affectionately I hope!) a bastard.

Perhaps I had it wrong. If so......no offense taken. It just seemed inappropriate in the context of the sentence and looked like a bit of a cheap shot.

I probably had Davo wrong....who knows....maybe he is even one of those "catch and release" guys.

Anyway....this forum is all about the wine! My apologies for the diversion. So as to not hijack Graeme's thread.....hopefully from here we can get back to the subject at hand!

I agree with you Grame that many of the laws regarding the shipping of wine across state lines in the U.S. are completely ridiculous. I have heard however that things are changing and many of these old laws will slowly be eroded. My understanding is that there is some legislation now pending which is designed to address these very issues.

Having just returned from Brisbane, and after searching all over for many of your interesting Australian wines, I was struck with how little wine is available from outside of Australia.

I do love Australian wine and have already collected quite a bit. If you want access to wines from Europe, the U.S. has a tremendous variety available...often at good prices...and often cheaper than the price of the same wine sold in the country of origin. Like most things in life, being a wine consumer in the U.S. has it's pluses and minuses. Nevertheless....your point is very valid.....the inter-state wine laws in the U.S. are a barrier to anyone who lives there and need to be changed.

Mike M
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Post by Mike M »

Jeff,

Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but the comments from Milwaukee Twin & Ian are right on. I've had the pleasure of traveling to Australia over 30 times on business and sometimes pleasure, and the use of the word "bastard" definitely doesn't have the same meaning in OZ as it might have in the US. I have been called the Yankee bastard, the bald bastard, the old bastard, and the list goes on and on. I absolutely take no offense to this, there is nothing derogatory meant by it at all. In fact, it tells me my "mates" might even like me a little. In my trusty Fair Dinkum Aussie Dictionary, bastard is most often used as a term of affection. One meaning it does not carry in typical Aussie usage is a reference to the legitimacy of one's birth. For a good Aussie, bastard just ain't a bad word.

As a final note, during my last visit Down Under in November, I visited the Kaesler Winery in the Barossa Valley. Some of the locals had arranged a barrel tasting, a marvelous experience. The top of the line Kaesler wine, to the tune of around US$150 per bottle, is called ---
OLD BASTARD!!!
Wine is a never-ending education

TORB
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Post by TORB »

Ian, the word "Bastard" after the word "Pomme" is actually regarded as tautology amongst upper class, well spoken "Ozstralians." :shock: :P
Cheers
Ric
TORBWine

Ian S
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Post by Ian S »

TORB wrote: upper class, well spoken "Ozstralians.

I'll have to look out for one of these on my travels - doesn't sound like any I know :wink:

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Red Bigot
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Post by Red Bigot »

Jeff W wrote:It kinda made me laugh...here's a guy with an Avitar holding up a dead fish (that I assume he has has just killed) talking about those bastards and their guns.

Since your so enlightened, here's a thought for ya......If fish could scream there would be no more fishing.....but hey...that's probably a bit deep for ya Davo.



Welcome Jeff, with comebacks like that I think you can take care of yourself, even if it is a bit of a long shot to compare killing a fish to eat to shooting a person in a rage or just for fun.

BTW, can we conclude you are a vegan or vegetarian? With an attitude to fishing like that you surely can't eat meat either?
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)

GraemeG
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Post by GraemeG »

Jeff W wrote:Having just returned from Brisbane, and after searching all over for many of your interesting Australian wines, I was struck with how little wine is available from outside of Australia.

I do love Australian wine and have already collected quite a bit. If you want access to wines from Europe, the U.S. has a tremendous variety available...often at good prices...and often cheaper than the price of the same wine sold in the country of origin. Like most things in life, being a wine consumer in the U.S. has it's pluses and minuses. Nevertheless....your point is very valid.....the inter-state wine laws in the U.S. are a barrier to anyone who lives there and need to be changed.


I suspect a large part of the reason imported wines are so expensive here is the appalling WET tax. To slap another 29% on respectable Bordeaux & Burgundy, Rhone & Rhines on arrival, then adding GST on top just kicks them way out of the ball park. What a disgusting wine tax regime we have here. :x

cheers,
Graeme

smithy
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Post by smithy »

8)

Actually guys the 29% WET tax applies to all wine sold in Australia.

Aussie Wine sold here attracts the 29% on all winery wholesale sales valued at $1,000,000 and over...so its only the little boutiquey wineries not paying it.

Oh... and the Kiwis cos we like them and they whinged!

Big winery names.. rest assured...it includes WET!



Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red

Jeff W
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Post by Jeff W »

Red Bigot wrote:
BTW, can we conclude you are a vegan or vegetarian? With an attitude to fishing like that you surely can't eat meat either?


OK...I admit it, I went for the laugh. It was a line I heard in college many years ago and it cracked me up. Imagine pulling a fish out of the water and it's screaming...It really would take the fun out of it.

Confession time...I eat meat, fish....and um...here's the big confession....drum roll please....sometimes even drink white wine. Sorry Ric and Brian - don't hold it against me!

I live in Malaysia, and we have a similar problem here as well with excessive tax on imported wine. Malaysia doesn't exactly have a budding wine industry to protect so taxes on wine have always seemed a bit unfair.

In the big picture, Malaysia is still pretty reasonable. In fact, when Australian wine is exported out from Australia all that GST and wet tax is not charged and the wine is actually resonably priced at the retail level - often available in Malaysia at a price which is only slightly higher than the price you pay in Australia. By comparison, a bottle of French wine in Malaysia is probably double the price of what it might be in Europe or the States. In that sense, the Australian wet tax and GST program are quite effective in making Australian wine appear reasonably priced when it hits foreign shores relative to its European competitors.

From Australia, I just brought back to Malaysia some Mount Edelstone, The Tally, Meshach, Eileen Hardy Shiraz, Pierro Chardonnay as well as a few others. Nothing but smiles from me when I got that big fat check back from the tax guys at the airport in Brisbane.

Please don't ask how I got all that wine into Malaysia or I would have to make even more confessions :D

Comparing Australia, is there any other country that charge their citizens such a high wine tax for purchasing and consuming their own wine?

GraemeG
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Post by GraemeG »

smithy wrote:8)

Actually guys the 29% WET tax applies to all wine sold in Australia.

Cheers
Smithy


Andrew, I realise that pretty well everyone cops it. But it does help explain why imported wines are (generally) so much cheaper in the UK & US than here. It may be something of a tribute to the local industry that they can still get a bottle of drinkable wine on the shelf at $15 retail which includes between $3 and $4.50 worth of tax!

Having said that, there's obviously pretty healthy margins being taken on expensive, mass-produced locally-sold commercial wines - at least if you look at overseas prices. You read about Bin 389 selling for $US25 and it makes you wonder. At $40-odd locally, clearly it's subsidising (albeit in a small way) the $8 Rawsons...

cheers,
Graeme

smithy
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Post by smithy »

8)

Couldn't agree more strongly about the poor old Aussie wine consumer subsidising the fine drinking of our UK and US counterparts.

It gives me a nice warm glow to think how much we are doing for them.

It really is ludicrous when you can get some damned fine wines O/S so much cheaper than you can here.

Having said that, the current system that excludes the first $MILLION from WET suits me and a whole lot of little wineries just fine!

cheers

Smithy
home of the mega-red

Davo
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Post by Davo »

Jeff W wrote:
I probably had Davo wrong....who knows....maybe he is even one of those "catch and release" guys.


Jeez Jeff, you are a right proper drongo. of course I fish for the future. Fillet and release is my motto. :lol:

Jeff W wrote:
I agree with you Grame that many of the laws regarding the shipping of wine across state lines in the U.S. are completely ridiculous. I have heard however that things are changing and many of these old laws will slowly be eroded. My understanding is that there is some legislation now pending which is designed to address these very issues.


Now, I actually thought my comments were on topic. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that firearms can be so freely shipped across state borders where alcohol can't. :?

Perhaps being an American you find it perfectly normal, I however am quite perplexed at the legislative thought process that form these laws.

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manning
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Post by manning »

(paraphrased...) If fish could scream, would we still kill them?


We might, if they screamed all the time for no good reason.

(Remember: in Australia, your best friend is "a complete bastard". Your worst enemy, however, is "a bit of a bastard").

Jeff W
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Post by Jeff W »

[quote="Davo"]


Jeez Jeff, you are a right proper drongo. of course I fish for the future. Fillet and release is my motto. :lol:

OK, I have now found an article called "Aussie Slang and Terminology made easy"

http://www.hostelscentral.com/hostels-article-110.html

from it I have found:

Berk: Definition: Jerk, loser, fool. Also called: Boof'ed (Boof Head). Deadshit. Drongo. Galah (also an Australian bird). Wanker.

So I will give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you have called me an Australian bird of some type.

I now have my Aussie slang dictionary so I can hope to avoid a "barney" in the future. But you kinda have to admit, in the context of your brief post, "strange bastards that lot" didn't really come across as a term of endearment and was easy to misinterpret. But hey, I'm on your board so the obligation is on me to understand the lingo.

What ever the case...no hard feelings Davo.

And you're right - the gun laws in the U.S., as enshrined in the constitution, are completely out of date and need to be changed. In that sense, they are similar to the laws governing the transport of alcohol across state line - written long ago and completely inappropriate today.

Big Dave

Post by Big Dave »

From what I have gathered, there are a variety of reasons why foreign wines cost so much here, not all tax related. Importers can have a 90% mark up or more to cover international transport, domestic distribution, storage, import tax, wages etc. On top of this goes the WET and on top of that the GST. The importer can then claim GST back. The the wine moves up to distributor or shop. If it goes to a distributor, they will add their mark up and GST is added again, which the distributor can claim back. The wine then goes to shop and the same happens again, with the final GST added. Hence, the more hands the wine passes through, the more GST is added (and reclaimed) until the customer finally pays the GST on GST on GST...... Right thieving bastards those pollies!!

Cheers

Dave

Mike M
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Post by Mike M »

Davo,

Filet and release --- that's just way too funny!!!! In fisherman lingo, that's a keeper! Aussie humor is hard to beat.

Mike
Wine is a never-ending education

GraemeG
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Post by GraemeG »

Big Dave wrote: Hence, the more hands the wine passes through, the more GST is added (and reclaimed) until the customer finally pays the GST on GST on GST...... Right thieving bastards those pollies!!

Cheers
Dave


No no - GST is always a separate amount; stock is always accounted for net of GST.
If I (importer) buy it for $10 and customs charge me 10% GST, the $1 I claim back at month-end. The stock costs me net $10. If I make 50%, I charge the wholesaler $15+GST. He's now paid me $16.50, but claims back the $1.50 from the ATO at month-end. If he makes 50% when selling to the retailer, then the retailers invoice is for $22.50 + GST=$24.75. Same applies. The retailer claims the $2.25 from the ATO. If he works on 30%, then the wine goes on the shelf at $22.50 + 30% = $29.25, plus 10% GST for the customer, which means the price tag reads $31.18.

So the tax office collected:
$1 - from customs
$1.50 from importer
$2.25 from wholesaler
$2.93 from the retailer.

But the last 3 amounts were refunded one link apart in the chain. So I remit the $1.50 I collected from the wholesaler, but claim back the $1 I paid to customs. The wholesaler remits the $2.25 he charged the retailer, but claims the $1.50 he paid the me.

Subtracting bit-by-bit above, the ATO collects:
$1 from customs
.50 from me
.75 from the wholesaler
.68 from the retailer.
Total is $2.93, which was the GST in the retail tag.

The cost of the good is always net of tax, and has escalated from $10, to $15, to $22.50 to $29.25 with each succesive margin. The Tax is always on top, and excluded from the next calculation.

(I imagine WET is the same, except it doesn't flow all the way throught the chain, just drops in at a single early level, much like the old sales tax.)

The GST is really only 10% at the end. It is still a tax-on-a-tax in the sense that there's GST on the WET, but there's not GST-on-GST.

cheers,
Graeme

Big Dave

Post by Big Dave »

Graeme - thanks for the clear up, must have got the wrong end of the stick when this was explained to me! Doh!! (Insert Homer Simpson emoticon!!).

Does that mean I have to revise my opinion of pollies too??!!!! :)

Cheers

Dave

GraemeG
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Post by GraemeG »

Big Dave wrote:
Does that mean I have to revise my opinion of pollies too??!!!! :)

Cheers

Dave


Dave,
The gist of the sentiment is correct, but you're about a dozen adjectives short...

cheers,
Graeme

wine.hcg
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Post by wine.hcg »

So, for imported wines with annual import value less than A$ 1 million is WET payable ?? any other taxes, duties - except GST of course ??

TORB
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Post by TORB »

wine.hcg wrote:So, for imported wines with annual import value less than A$ 1 million is WET payable ?? any other taxes, duties - except GST of course ??


Yep, the rebate/exemption only applies to local prodcers and honary K1W1 whineries. :shock: :wink:
Cheers
Ric
TORBWine

Smitty
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Post by Smitty »

Here in Ontario we suffer gov't taxes and excise totalling 50.1% of the price of a bottle of wine in LCBO (Liquor Control Board of Ontario) retail stores. On top of that there is an operating cost built into selling price which nets the gov't $1 billion plus a year in dividends beyond the taxes. The taxes on CD sales are only 24% but the wineries retail on the basis of the LCBO rate and pocket the 35% difference. That is why most smaller Canadian wineries sell little or no product through the LCBO and use CD sales only to survive. We can't ship inter-provincially(legally) or import without the wine going through the LCBO and taxes paid. We can get home delivery from some wineries in Ontario but this is small volume and most people use it to get wines unavailable from the LCBO. We even have inter-provincial trade barriers for wines from other Canadian regions than Ontario.

Even with these tax levels we continue to get most Oz wines at near the same price as they retail for in Oz, based on the Penguin GAWG retail prices quoted. Being the largest single purchaser of alcoholic beverages in the world does give the LCBO the leverage to keep our prices "somewhat reasonable" overall.
Grape Brain: A euphoric state induced by fine wine flowing over one's palette.

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Red Bigot
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Post by Red Bigot »

Smitty wrote:Even with these tax levels we continue to get most Oz wines at near the same price as they retail for in Oz, based on the Penguin GAWG retail prices quoted. Being the largest single purchaser of alcoholic beverages in the world does give the LCBO the leverage to keep our prices "somewhat reasonable" overall.

Hi Smitty,

Those prices may seem reasonable, but RRP in Australia is pretty meaningless to the smart wine buyer, case (incl mixed) prices from the best e-tailers/retailers are about 20% off RRP and best prices about 30% off RRP. There is a rather large wine glut here at present and prices are looking pretty negotiable on all but the scarce ultra-premium and cult wines, although even some of those are to be found occasionally at 20% off RRP.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)

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