JO site- a test run

[smithy]

Just blew the $39 on JO site (Onwine)

What a dud!

Beside the lack of unless you cough up the dough, so you can't see what you get, once you do part with your hardearned the info is still woeful.

For instance I looked up Warrabilla (admittedly I have a vested interest)
1 wine reviewed a 01 Reserve Durif thats been sold out for 3 years.
No winery reviews Nothing!

Now thats just slack!
I looked at some other wineries I know a bit about. Not much better!
Articles boring and predictable!

This sort of journalism as written from your comfy chair near the fax machine (to get the press releases) has past.

Get real Jeremy. Or refund my money!

Smithy

[Red Bigot]

Just a word in defence of the JO site, I find it a very useful resource and use it almost every day.

If I want winery reviews I go to the JH book, but often new wineries aren't there either, 2,000 and growing is too hard to keep up with. The wine forums are a better source of info for emerging small makers like Warrabilla, Kalleske, Glaymond etc.

I use the JO site for reviews/ratings of new releases I haven't tried and to check cellaring/drinking windows for new and older wines in my cellar or about which I've been asked. It's very useful to me in deciding whether to list or not list a wine on my own site if I haven't tried it myself.

Yes, the articles are pretty brief and sometimes superficial, but some of them have had useful information for me.

Yes, the site is a bit clunky, with lots of images that slow the display on some pages, there are many recent vintage wines where there are only ratings and not TN, there are gaps in the winery coverage, especially the emerging stars, but that's not a problem, we find out about them here anyway.

Since I'm close to a computer most of the time, I don't buy the book anymore, just subscribe to the site, so it only costs me about $14 more than buying the book. For me that's money well spent, especially as I find my palate often agrees with his and his drinking/cellaring windows are usually pretty close to the mark if I shorten the end year a little.

So, horses for courses, it depends on what you want.

If you have only just joined and don't see any value for yourself, it would be worth asking for a refund, you never know JO may appreciate the feedback. This is the only email address listed on site: enq@onwine.com.au, send me an email or PM if you want JO's direct email address.

[smithy]

Brian,

Its good to know the site isn't totally useless to everyone!

The brief articles seem very predictable and boring, nothing new!
Maybe if you like Pinot it would be better!

Couldn't see one "find" that JO found before everyone else started talking about!

What a comparision to the free TORB site or Campbells entertaining & well researched Winefront monthly.

As far as asking for my money back...Nah I'll just BITCH!

(PS emailed Ric re our Shiraz tasting next month..and can't wait for the Australian edition of the WA to come out on the 23rd)

Cheers
Smithy

[Ian S]

I haven't joined but might give it a test drive via the free trial (Smithy, why didn't you take this option?).

As far as JH vs. JO books, JH has the breadth, but the depth is fast disappearing. JO has a very narrow section of wineries, but the depth is more useful. For me JO overtook JH with the inclusion of tasting notes & is now well ahead.

Interestingly even HRH Jancis is now doing a free trial of her "Purple Pages". Maybe "try before you buy" is where we'll end up.

Ian

[Adam]

I find the opposite smithy...the articles are very interesting..and lots of them, also tasting note database is comprehensive, whats more Jeremy is very good at answering any questions.

I am also a bit disapointed that you used this opportunity to highlight your own winery, it could appear to be an attempt to make Jeremy take notice of warrabila...not good

[Lincoln]

For instance I looked up Warrabilla (admittedly I have a vested interest)
1 wine reviewed a 01 Reserve Durif thats been sold out for 3 years.
No winery reviews Nothing!

Do you mean you sent him samples and they weren't reviewed?

[smithy]

2 things

We've never sent JO samples so in a way I can't complain.

However, that doesn't stop some of the better wine writers from getting out and about and finding whats hot etc. Never heard of him being up here in NE Vic (but I don't get out much!)
Like I said Comfy chair journalism.

I wasn't complaining about my lack of writeups in his site...I was complaining about the site and using my winery as an example.

The only time we hear from JO is when he wants free wine for his favorite charity. Well we donate heaps elsewhere so tough on that!
Also, that shouldn't make a fig of difference.

As far as trying to bully him into a writeup Adam .... James Halliday is the reference just as RPJ is the standard reference in the US.

Trust me..I don't need Jeremy to sell our wine!

a disgruntled
Smithy

[camw]

"We've never sent JO samples so in a way I can't complain."

"However, that doesn't stop some of the better wine writers from getting out and about and finding whats hot etc" ... "Like I said Comfy chair journalism."

...

"As far as trying to bully him into a writeup Adam .... James Halliday is the reference" ...

Do you have to send Halliday samples in order for your wine to be reviewed?

[TORB]

a disgruntled
Smithy

Andrew,

I have to disagree with you here my friend. Yes Oliver's site is a lot more "focused" than Holiday's and covers a far smaller number of wineries, no argument there, but I doubt he pretends to do otherwise.

As far as Halliday being the "reference" he may be and there is no doubt that in terms of quantity he is prolific and writes up more wines than anyone else. But the other side of that coin is that some/many of his TN's are far too brief (to my way of thinking) and they are not much more than an "impression" or a "vibe."

Oliver on the other hand produces tasting notes that are detailed and give a much better picture of the wines he reviews.

As Brian said, there are over 2,000 wineries out there and no one can cover them all properly.

I doubt that Halliday visits many wineries these days either. Also, some writers think (and I am not saying this is right or wrong) they can do the wines they assess with more accuracy in their own environment. I know from my own experience, if I have a line up at home and can look at the wines over a period of hours, I get a more detailed and accurate impression.

Finally, why are you "disgruntled?"

[Adam]

8)
2 things

We've never sent JO samples so in a way I can't complain.

Good, then dont complain! I dont see why you expect him to taste every winery in the country? what makes yours better than the other 1000 he doesnt review?

My main problem is that you used this thread to bash his site and then you presonalised it to your winery by saying JO doesnt review my wines...so what?

Hes got 2000 articles on the site back to 1989...7200 tasting notes, over 600 winery profiles (granted not all complte but alll have contact details region etc, stock prices, news, education section...not bad value for the money in my opinion.

[smithy]

Coupla points

1) James reviews wines not sent to him as do all thegood wine journos.
Not sending wines to someone doesn't mean they don't see them.
They should go to Wine Australia or Vic Winemakers Exhibition or various tastings or wine shows etc.

2) This is a commercial site. I'd say its poor value.

3) What makes my wines better than the other 1000 not reviewed?
Well it would be cheesy to tell you here but if you want Adam I could go into a heap of detail about why I and many others believe we are the premium red wine of NE Vic. You want a PM with the proof?

Cheers
Smithy

[PaulS]

I have to put my two cents in and say I am also dissatisfied with JO's site on the basis it does not include a number of new wineries that I, and many people who contribute to this forum, are interested in. To me his site seems to be good for wineries that belong to the establishment. But it is not often you see JO turning his attention to emerging producers. Kalleske is a good example. This producer has made a big impact in a short space of time but does not even rate a mention on JO's site. JO has only just begun writing about Pizzini but that producer has been on many people's radar for a long time already. Warrabilla is clearly another good example.

Wine writers should not just be reviewing wines they receive as samples. Ottherwise they risk falling behind others who don't wait for a wine to turn up in the mail.

[Adam]

You want a PM with the proof?

Cheers
Smithy

Not really, its JO you have to convince...not me!

[smithy]

To Quote adam
"What makes your wine better than the 1000 wines he doesn't review."

Well...we offered to tell you.
Thanks PaulS.......Its the style of lazy journalism that I'm complaining about. ie with press release in hand.

Appreciate Rics points, but Ric your site is a) free
and b) incredibly well researched and run

Brians point that the industry is too big for any 1 individual is also pretty fair.
James Halliday does do a pretty reasonable job.

Cheers
Smithy

[Adam]

8)

To Quote adam
"What makes your wine better than the 1000 wines he doesn't review."

It was more a hypothetical question...one that I dont require an answer to, as probably there are tonnes of wineries who will maintain that their wines are better than your so on and so forth.

I think you understand why I was objecting to your comments so I will leave it at that.

[Jordan]

I find that no wine journo/review source fulfills my needs completely. A combination of OnWine, JH book, Winefront Monthly and Ric's site generally give a good picutre as well as weekly press reviews and other forum memebers opinions. Overall though JO site is a fairly comprehensive resource in my opinion but if he does not start increrasing the breadth of his reviews soon (ie Kalleske, more Kaesler reviews, Glaetzer) he may start to become slightly irrelevant.

[Jeremy Oliver]

Andrew Smith, you can say what you like about my site. It is your right. If you're that unhappy, I'm more than prepared to refund your subscription. Had you contacted me directly I would have given you the same reply.

What I do object to, however, is the blatant mistruth you have perpetrated throughout this discussion, during which you claim never to have sent me wine for review. I still have bottles of your wine, Warrabilla, in my storage area in my office, which you sent to me entirely unsolicited on more than a single occasion, as hundreds of other wineries do.

It's one thing to let off some self-righteous steam about my choosing not to review the wines you sent me, since I have very little to say about them that would be of much benefit to anyone, least of all you. However the other members of this forum at least deserve to receive the truth from an active participant in the wine industry such as yourself, albeit a flagrantly self-promoting one.

[Ian S]

Oh bugger!
I hate these situations as I end up starting , changing, deleting re-starting about a dozen responses.

Personally I think the "flagrantly self-promoting comment" is a bit harsh - I see Smithy as "passionate winemaker" rather than "media-spinning wine-marketeer". For me he's passionate about his wine rather than his sales. Perhaps trying to avoid using the winery name in posts would help reduce the criticism Smithy? Maybe referring to "my wines" would be better. Personally I still appreciate you posting (same goes for yourself Jeremy).

However (and in hindsight, which is easy) I do think the original thread was ill-judged and to continue in that vein only invited a very justifiable response. Even ignoring the question of wine being, or not being sent, there was a real risk of self-interest (even if it was declared).

Maybe it's a good lesson for all of us, that on the internet, you might not think someone's listening when you criticise them, but really they are... No Mr McGuigan I didn't mean it really aaaaAARGH!!

[Lincoln]

What I do object to, however, is the blatant mistruth you have perpetrated throughout this discussion, during which you claim never to have sent me wine for review. I still have bottles of your wine, Warrabilla, in my storage area in my office, which you sent to me entirely unsolicited on more than a single occasion, as hundreds of other wineries do.

It's one thing to let off some self-righteous steam about my choosing not to review the wines you sent me, since I have very little to say about them that would be of much benefit to anyone, least of all you. However the other members of this forum at least deserve to receive the truth from an active participant in the wine industry such as yourself, albeit a flagrantly self-promoting one.

What the?

[Maximus]

Oh bugger!
I hate these situations as I end up starting , changing, deleting re-starting about a dozen responses.

Personally I think the "flagrantly self-promoting comment" is a bit harsh - I see Smithy as "passionate winemaker" rather than "media-spinning wine-marketeer". For me he's passionate about his wine rather than his sales. Perhaps trying to avoid using the winery name in posts would help reduce the criticism Smithy? Maybe referring to "my wines" would be better. Personally I still appreciate you posting (same goes for yourself Jeremy).

However (and in hindsight, which is easy) I do think the original thread was ill-judged and to continue in that vein only invited a very justifiable response. Even ignoring the question of wine being, or not being sent, there was a real risk of self-interest (even if it was declared).

Maybe it's a good lesson for all of us, that on the internet, you might not think someone's listening when you criticise them, but really they are... No Mr McGuigan I didn't mean it really aaaaAARGH!!

Ian,

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well put.

[TORB]

Lets hope that this doesn't spiral out of control; its the sort of thread that can easily go that way.

I am reluctant to buy into this one again but after consideration would like to make a couple of points.

Firstly, I am glad that JO answered the original comments; it's always good to get the other side of the story.

Secondly, Andrew you know this is not personal as we are always frank with each other. How would you like it if someone (with a bit of clout) bought a bottle of your wine, didn't like it and roundly bagged it to all and sundry without talking to you first?

Chances are you would not like it and would have preferred the complainant rang you to talk about it first to give you a chance to "look after the customer."

In reality, its analogious to someone trying your wine and finding its "not to their taste;" that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it, it just means it does not suit their personal preference.

[smithy]

Being called a liar is not good for southern gentleman like myself.
I repeat that we haven't sent Warrabilla to Jeremy.

Thats not to say that I don't agree he may have some in his storage area. We didn't send them.... haven't sent him samples in god knows how long.
I think I did send something once for the charity auction once but not 100% sure.

Perhaps Jeremy would like to consider that before he accuses us of telling whoppers for self gain.

Then again, we have our wines reviewed regularly, I don't always agree with the reviews. It seems only fair that we have earned the right to review the reviewers,or can some people dish it out but not take it.

Apologies are nice.....
Pistols at dawn are fine too.

Cheers
Smithy

[GRB]

Just my advice to both of you. Pistols at dawn on a public forum will do nothing but loose respect for both parties. Apologies will show that you are both above petty point scoring and are more interested in getting back to what you both do IMHO very well. I have never repeat never seen this sort of thing end well on a public internet forum, and I have been hanging around on them since before most of you knew "the net" existed.

Glen

[Red Bigot]

Just my advice to both of you. Pistols at dawn on a public forum will do nothing but loose respect for both parties. Apologies will show that you are both above petty point scoring and are more interested in getting back to what you both do IMHO very well. I have never repeat never seen this sort of thing end well on a public internet forum, and I have been hanging around on them since before most of you knew "the net" existed.

Glen

Agree Glen. (Didn't realise you were that old! )

PS I think you should change your tag line to something like "Winner of the inaugural RB cork-count competition".

[smithy]

Fair enough guys,

The pistols at dawn comment was a bit OTT.
I would have contacted Jeremy direct but there was no "contact" link.

I am a member of organisations that do send out samples to winewriters
(such as Winemakers of Rutherglen).... I have no control over what they send out to who (But I wish they didn't...it can be counterproductive)

We actually have a list of who we send samples to ourselves, and he's not on it. Thats why I know we haven't sent him unsolicited samples.

Still don't like being called a liar in a public place, cuts me to the quick.

Cheers
Smithy

[chillwrx]

Just what do you think of Smithys wines Jeremy?

Can we look forward to a review in the 2007 book?

It is sad what has happened as both Warrabilla and Onwine have a place in my wine life. Get over it guys.

[TORB]

I sincerely doubt this is the real Jeremy Oliver from Onwine. Wonder who it is stirring the pot?

I am willing to bet it is the real JO. He has posted on forums before and specificailly this one a couple of times previously.

[BA]

I sincerely doubt this is the real Jeremy Oliver from Onwine. Wonder who it is stirring the pot?

I am willing to bet it is the real JO. He has posted on forums before and specificailly this one a couple of times previously.

I'll bet you a bottle of fine Clare riesling on that one.
This "Jeremy Oliver" only has one post, only joined yesterday, yet I have seen JO post here before.
Could the real Jeremy Oliver please stand up.

Hmmm. Another stirrer is just what forums the world over don't need.

cheers
BA

[TORB]

I'll bet you a bottle of fine Clare riesling on that one.
This "Jeremy Oliver" only has one post, only joined yesterday, yet I have seen JO post here before.
Could the real Jeremy Oliver please stand up.

Hmmm. Another stirrer is just what forums the world over don't need.

cheers
BA

BA,

In the old days people did not need to register and could do so as a "Guest."

[Adam]

Maybe JO will write an article on the Whine forums as a result!