Langmeil The Freedom Shiraz 2003

[PaulS]

According to the Langmeil website, the 2003 "The Freedom" is now available at a cool $100 a bottle. Am I suffering from memory loss or is this is a dramatic price escalation on the 2002, which was more like $60-70? OK so the wine comes from some of the oldest vines around which wouldn't yield much etc. Nonetheless it's a big price increase in the space of a year and I'm wondering what people think about this and whether they would still feel inclined to buy it.

[707]

What was that classic line from "The Castle" - "tell 'em they're dreamin"

At a time when the market is depressed and we're seeing wholesale slashing of prices, including some of the bigger guns, they decide to do a massive price jump, go figure?

If what you say is correct, that's another wine I won't need to agonise over buying again.

BTW, the 1998 Freedom I had recently is a cracker.

[Red Bigot]

What was that classic line from "The Castle" - "tell 'em they're dreamin"

At a time when the market is depressed and we're seeing wholesale slashing of prices, including some of the bigger guns, they decide to do a massive price jump, go figure?

If what you say is correct, that's another wine I won't need to agonise over buying again.

BTW, the 1998 Freedom I had recently is a cracker.

Ditto, might be a marketing genius at work though..

I bought the 98 and 99 at under $50, thought the 00 and 01 were not up to the price, saw a good review of the 2002, but didn't bother at around $65, they must think they've pulled off a stunner in 2003, but I probably won't bother to find out at $100 asking price.

[707]

I've got the 2002 Freedom in next weeks Blacktongues Super Shiraz tasting so it will be interesting to see how it fares.

Stay tuned for results, it's a heavy duty lineup.

[Guest]

OK so the wine comes from some of the oldest vines around which wouldn't yield much etc.

So...?
It's the singer, not the song.

[TORB]

They are probaly going to market the heck out of the vine age. If they see Kalleske, Torbreck, Tahbilk, Hobbs, Kaesler, etc who all have vines around that age charging $90+ a bottle they possibly figure they can get it too.

Their US market could also be affecting the price, especially if they think it will be righly rated by "unowho."

[707]

Don't think they've had much in the way of significant Parker points for the Freedom in the past so couldn't see the 2003 doing it for them.

You need to be confident you can move it at that price otherwise it becomes very embarassing to do a price slash on your top wine, or it sits there not moving delaying the release of future vintages.

[Guest]

These kinds of things always spread across regions. A wine producer thinks that his or her wine is in the top wines of the region, and is happy with $45 per bottle. Then a wine of a similar status/flavour profile jumps to $70, and a brand new wine with no track record launches at $80, and some new hot shot puts one at at $180, and suddenly you feel like you've been demoted, or like your status has been cribbed. So you double your price and restore things to order. The drinkers hate it. It should never happen. But it is a very human scenario.

It is possible that Lengmeil don't have a lot of the 03, and think that it won't hurt them a lot to cop a bit of criticism now. Once the markets adjusts, then the 04 and 05, which should be excellent, might be able to carry it ... might.

personally, I won't be buying at those prices - but I think that hobbs, descendant, kalleske's top one, rockford svs and, dare I say it, grange are all way overpriced, and get away with it for reasons other than absolute quality. And of course there are others.

[Andrew Jordan]

Guest,

Not sure I totally agree with you on your list of wines that are over-priced. Agree Grange is definitely over-priced in the Australian market. When you can buy this wine in the States and other countires for half the price as what you would pay in Oz, you know straight away Southcorp is ripping off the Australian wine buyer. And this is the case for their other 2 premium red's 707 and RWT. Same with Wolf Blass with their Black and Platnium labels, found half price in other countires.

In regards to the others listed, can't comment on Hobbs, descendent and the Rockford's as I really have not had much exposure to these, but I tend to not agree on the Johann Kalleske Shiraz. Ok $95 is a bit of a hit, but definitely worth the money. With the Greenock retailing for just under $40, the Johann is definitely worth double that. If Southcorp had this wine in their portfolio it would be double the price I am sure!

AJ

[Guest]

I have had the johann. it is a very good wine. but $95 for a first release? nice work if you can get it. it is only that price because of rarity, not because of absolute quality. langmeil, with its track record, at $100. is not unrealistic if Kalleske Johann is OK at $95. (personally, I think both are overpriced).

[Hacker]

I have had the johann. it is a very good wine. but $95 for a first release? nice work if you can get it. it is only that price because of rarity, not because of absolute quality. langmeil, with its track record, at $100. is not unrealistic if Kalleske Johann is OK at $95. (personally, I think both are overpriced).

The grapes for the Johann Georg were (I believe) the grapes the Kalleske family sold to Penfolds as a component of Grange, so whilst it is a first release, the 'backbone' was already there.

The auction price of the JG is in the realms of $150+; far higher then the $80-90 on release. The auction price of the Freedom ranges from $35 to $45. Case proven.

cheers

David M.

[707]

I've been fortunate and had the Kalleske Johann Georg on about six occasions, every time it's wowed me and my associates. It is a stunningly good wine which is why the auction price has soared I expect.

Whilst I've enjoyed previous Freedom's they are a level below the Johann.

I rarely buy wines $100+, exceptions are Torbreck RunRig and Greenock Creek Roennfeldt Roads. I've added Johann Georg to that list for which I'm prepared to pay over $100.

[Guest]

Hacker,

I love the idea that auction prices are PROOF of quality, that cracked me up!

Steve,

Fair enough. I had the Joann only twice and liked it both times, but didn't think it was better than, say, 98 or 2002 Freedom. Each to their own.

[Guest]

Hacker,

I love the idea that auction prices are PROOF of quality, that cracked me up!

Steve,

Fair enough. I had the Joann only twice and liked it both times, but didn't think it was better than, say, 98 or 2002 Freedom. Each to their own.

[TORB]

The grapes for the Johann Georg were (I believe) the grapes the Kalleske family sold to Penfolds as a component of Grange, so whilst it is a first release, the 'backbone' was already there.

David,

This grapes for Grang bit is vastly overrated IMO and many growers will tell you their grapes have made the Grange grade. In most cases it probaly true, but Penfolds buys loads of grapes for Grange; all you need to do is supply a small parcel that makes the grade and you can trade on that statement forever.

[Hacker]

Hacker,

I love the idea that auction prices are PROOF of quality, that cracked me up!

No where did I say auction prices are proof of quality. They are an indication as to the market perception of a wine, and in the case of the Freedom, over a number of vintages, the perception is that it is not anywhere near a $100 wine.

cheers,

David M.

PS. sign up, we would all appreciate knowing who we are speaking to

[Andrew Jordan]

Does this thread fit the bill in regards to Gavin's weekly prize ....

Gavin Trott wrote:

Over the next week I'll select, with a little help, one post that makes a big impact on the forum.

It could be a great tasting note, or a post that sparks a great debate , or adds outstanding information to the general population.

We can only hope

AJ

[Guest]

OK Hacker, you did not say that auctions prices were proof of quality. You said this: "the auction price of the JG is in the realms of $150+; far higher then the $80-90 on release. The auction price of the Freedom ranges from $35 to $45. Case proven." what, then, did the case prove?

[Gavin Trott]

Does this thread fit the bill in regards to Gavin's weekly prize ....

Gavin Trott wrote:

Over the next week I'll select, with a little help, one post that makes a big impact on the forum.

It could be a great tasting note, or a post that sparks a great debate , or adds outstanding information to the general population.

We can only hope

AJ

No

So far I'm winning!



(only joking)

[Hacker]

OK Hacker, you did not say that auctions prices were proof of quality. You said this: "the auction price of the JG is in the realms of $150+; far higher then the $80-90 on release. The auction price of the Freedom ranges from $35 to $45. Case proven." what, then, did the case prove?

Mr/Ms Guest,

simply the case that a flagship wine needs to earn a reputation through public recognition over time, to justify the $100 pricetag is a fair and reasonable. In the case of The Freedom, the auction price, which is a fair and reasonable measure over time, is between $35-45. To charge $100, which I believe is an increase of $35 or 55% over the previous years CD price, is difficult to justify.

I have no problem with the wine, in fact I own some 2001; I believe in fairness in pricing though. The Kalleske I believe is justified....I may be wrong; time will tell.

cheers,

David M.

[707]

I'm with you David as I'm sure most fair minded people reading this are too.

You didn't say auction price was an arbitor of quality, you did allude to the fact that "the market" rates Freedom around the $50 mark once buyers premiums are factored in. That would indicate to most that $100 RRP is adventurous to say the least.

Interesting that Guest, despite your request to identify him/herself, chose to continue stand behind anonymity. Who knows it may be someone from Langmeil?

Guest appreciate your opinion on the two wines. I've bought 98, 01 & 02 Freedom happily at $50, won't venture further than that at this stage whereas I'm happy to go the $100+ on my opinion of the Kalleske Johann Georg.