Cork v Stelvin Tasting.

[JamieAdelaide]

Nice read. I’m finding I’m not happy wit stelvin and semillon and not convinced of stelvin with red. Stelvin and white has been amazing!


https://wineanorak.com/2024/11/26/cork-versu ... g-results/

[I Love Shiraz]

I hate cork. Too many bad experiences. I must admit wines under stelvin age slower because of less oxygen getting in, but that's OK. That is a small price to pay to have a wine guaranteed it is going to be OK.

[sjw_11]

www.wineanorak.com/2024/11/26/cork-versus-screwcap-a-major-tasting-including-older-wines-with-some-interesting-results/

[Ian S]

Thanks for posting that Sam, and a thumbs up to Jamie Goode for his careful avoidance of stridency.

What was always going to be a long term unknown, is the eventual trajectory of the wine's maturity. i.e. what does 'full maturity/over-maturity' under screwcap look like? What that needs is a lot of time, and the luck in having a really good cork in a control bottle from the same vintage/lot to compare it against.

I presume that with liners that allow a prescribed level of oxygen transmission, there will eventually be oxidation, but I wonder if anyone has experienced that yet (outside of damaged capsules). Has anyone here tasted an over-mature (tin/saran rather than saranex) screwcap sealed wine? As I recall, the earlier editions of modern screwcaps weren't designed for oxygen ingress, so their trajectory would be especially interesting.

One little snippet that I hadn't thought about before, but makes perfect sense, is that corks themselves release a small amount of oxygen into the wine. That the best corks then stop meaningful oxygen ingress, was not a surprise.

[JamieAdelaide]

I hate cork. Too many bad experiences. I must admit wines under stelvin age slower because of less oxygen getting in, but that's OK. That is a small price to pay to have a wine guaranteed it is going to be OK.

Cork has significant problems. They seem a lot worse in some regions. I’m finding the problems are far less than I read about from Aussies. I hope I haven’t jinxed myself. Perfect cellaring may give a greater success rate ( from oxidation and forward development )

I opened 18 Mt Edelstones from 1956 last weekend. All but one excellent. A 97 wasn’t as good as a few years ago so maybe cork muted the wine or just its age.

I then saw 300 bottles opened the next night- high end Barolo at $1000 a bottle to Piedmont basics at $20. I’m getting the final tally now.

Stelvin is still questionable to me for reds as my first generation of reds under stelvin mature. Boring and retarded in some cases. In other scenarios structural evolution out of whack with undeveloped fruit so it’s like drinking juice.

Semillon needs a cork. Other whites incredible with a lot of age .

I don’t know. Not yet convinced. Funny! Tonight I’m opening an 03 Elizabeth under cork. It’s a coin toss under cork!

[Chuck]

I agree stelvin creates glacial aging but I no longer worry about dud expensive bottles under cork both corked and premox etc. Tasting notes from special events here express frustration when carefully stored wines under cork are stuffed. But for many this is a price to pay to experience wines under cork. Particularly reds. Can't argue with that.

Most of my wines (mostly OZ) are under stelvin. All I know is I know exactly what every freshly opened bottle will taste like. Zero bottle variation apart from age difference.

Just one question to all. If wine was invented today and they asked for ideas on how to seal bottles how far would cork get in the conversation?

[JamieAdelaide]

Most of my wines (mostly OZ) are under stelvin. All I know is I know exactly what every freshly opened bottle will taste like. Zero bottle variation apart from age difference.

Just one question to all. If wine was invented today and they asked for ideas on how to seal bottles how far would cork get in the conversation?

Having been weened on mature wine, opening an aged in stelvin, Aussie red, that’s fresh fruited and structurally tired has been underwhelming in some cases. Last night had an 04 Petaluma under cork which was very good and a Katnook cab under stelvin which delivered exactly what the Aussie consumer may want? Fresh fruited and squealing acidity was OK enough. I’m often finding I crave a cork jammed into such reds bettering the outcome.

On your hypothetical, who knows? You would have to jump forward on time with a stelvin product and a modern cork product. The variation of stelvin and the occasional failure, could well be little different to the most modern and quality assured of corks. Now these corks still do fail as well. Despite carry on.

[felixp21]

I will buy Chardonnay and Riesling under screwcap or diam, and Aussie pinot likewise. Nothing else.
My experiences with full-bodied reds under screwcap indicate that, for my palate, cork is a far better option.

[Ian S]

In other scenarios structural evolution out of whack with undeveloped fruit so it’s like drinking juice.

I did a little reading, as although I knew tannins polymerised and softened, before eventually dropping out of suspension, I didn't know what enabled that transition. That reading suggests heat and oxygen, which would suggest that in a cool cellar, the tannin softening and dropping out, ought to be similarly retarded by less oxygen ingress. Not sure about acid, as that I believe is less affected by age. Perhaps the dissolved air in the cork plays an important part - would it be absorbed in the wine after SO2 (in bottling process) is absorbed?

All well beyond my knowledge of chemistry!

[JamieAdelaide]

I don’t believe the ageing process that well understood.

I’m just observing what I’d call the first generation of reds, under stelvin, at maturity. Circa-2004 vintage now 20 years old. There’s been some good wines although I’m finding many, with way too much upfront fruit, with a weathered structure exasperating austerity on finish.

By your reading tannins should still be in place more so than under cork.

Last week’s wines were far more gratifying under cork from my cellar. Tyrell’s Vat 8 03 and an Elizabeth 03. A bunch of foreign stuff - German Riesling, Barolo and Burg all 20 years old. Petaluma Coonawarra 2004 under cork was a lovely claret versus a Katnook 2004 under stelvin. A couple of Coldstream Hills Reserves were very average under stelvin showing poor development and complexity and high acidity ( Yarra ).

A few days later I opened 20 Mt Edelstones from 56 to 05. A 97 under the weather and I suggest cork subtly at play. Maybe just struggling now as 97 average vintage ( previously it was the best SA 97 I’d had ). The rest brilliant! Not bad as many from the era of horrible Aussie corks. A few Mt Ed’s under stelvin though unfortunately I was hosting the event and with all the excitement of sone incredible wines, forgot to do a comparison.

Next night 300 wines opened for a mass Italian event. 2-3 affected. However I’d say a dozen magnums of Vietti Barolo 2018 showed too much variation. Was it cork or the variability of Castiglione label?

[phillisc]

Having a 2004 Michael Shiraz in a few hours, so will see at 20 years what the stelvin has done. A decant will be in order.
Cheers Craig

[Waiters Friend]

Having a 2004 Michael Shiraz in a few hours, so will see at 20 years what the stelvin has done. A decant will be in order.
Cheers Craig

G'day Craig. I'd be keen to see your tasting note for the 2004 Michael. A couple of others might be interested too

Cheers
Allan

[phillisc]

Allan
2004 Wynns Michael, decanted for 2 hours.
Served this as I thought it apt that the wife of a good friend stated on release at the CD, in 2007, it was simply the best red wine she had ever tasted.
Inky black, nose of cherry, dark fruits, the finest pencil shavings. The palate was pristine, enduring, beautifully silky, but finishes with a solid core of fruit and tannin leaving me to think at 20 years, its about half way, wonderfully integrated. Magnificent actually, and of the 10 or so who tried the wine, thought it so. Will drink the other 5 over the next 15-20 years.
Cheers Craig

[JamieAdelaide]

If your style, a recent vintage, $65 a bottle direct as a wild card offer. So cheap!

[phillisc]

If your style, a recent vintage, $65 a bottle direct as a wild card offer. So cheap!

Indeed, looked at that deal, very tempted but have a sixer and a few loose bottles...$65 is indeed cheap.
I picked up some 2018/19 Riddoch for $80.
Michael still lives in the shadow a bit, but 2019/2021 vintages are exemplary. As are the same vintages of the BL Shiraz, fruit from an 1890s vineyard certainly helps.
The 2004 had a bit of that cool climate feel about it, obviously with a Coonawarra wine, but had a wry smile, when somebody said it felt a little Eden Valley

Cheers Craig

[JamieAdelaide]

I didn’t take it up. Never liked Michael in the old days ( under cork lol) and too much Shiraz anyways.

There’s beautiful development in quality shiraz at the 20 year mark with a good cork. Not sure how long we have to wait under screw cap? I recall a chat with Tony Brady at Wendouree about the topic and without misquoting him, I’ll just say he didn’t provide any answers.

[phillisc]

I also think with the Wendouree minimal intervention low fuss approach, that this would not sit well with Tony getting a barrage of calls for replacement bottles, hence the move to Stelvin.

Cheers Craig

[Mahmoud Ali]

One little snippet that I hadn't thought about before, but makes perfect sense, is that corks themselves release a small amount of oxygen into the wine.

Caught me by surprise but, like you, made perfect sense.

I may have mentioned this before, that I am not at all unhappy that most of my wines are under cork. and that when making a purchase of a wine I trust the wine maker's decision about the closure, be it cork or screw cap. Thinking back, for example, a 2010 Coleraine was under cork, no worries, the 2013 Copper Trail was screw cap, no worries either.

Cheers ................ Mahmoud.

[JamieAdelaide]

I also think with the Wendouree minimal intervention low fuss approach, that this would not sit well with Tony getting a barrage of calls for replacement bottles, hence the move to Stelvin.

Cheers Craig

On one of my visits, Tony mentioned somewhere near 10% of the wines adversely affected in some way under cork. This in winery trials. I doubt he ever received anywhere near that percentage of customer returns. The 97 vintage being particularly plagued!

Something had to be done and cork improvements seemed way slower than the stelvin option. Without trial, Wendouree went to stelvin.

I’m not caught up in the fanatical approach to stelvin like many Aussie punters. Nor am I cavalier enough to just trust a winemaker with a closure as if the at a guarantee of a sound result.

There’s going to be trials and tribulation with stelvin. I’m seeing that now with my own cellar. The difficulty here is discerning if it’s just a poor wine that’s underperforming at maturity and not the closure.

Empirically, cork seems more fragile to adversity with less than perfect cellaring. I’m getting far less bad wines under cork from my cellar than auction, as well as compared to the comments of others. This a feather in the cap for stelvin though I did have a completely cooked ultra-premium wine bought from auction. The vendor must have gone to considerable effort to bake it!

An interesting discussion as long as simple consumer folks don’t take closure performance personally.

[Chuck]

Tried a Lindemans Trio 2012 St George Cabernet under stelvin. Last bottle about 4-5 years ago was quite light and lacking fruit intensity. Medium bodied at best. This bottle was significantly better. Above medium body with great fruit depth and intensity. Aged characteristics developing. Plenty of development potential to come. I was quite surprised with the recent development. Maybe due to my less than ideal storage conditions?