Cellar lists & the quantum of keeping stuff

[Sean]

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[Ian S]

It's good to think about the 'why?' and the practicalities, as without doing so, buying wine can become an obsession. So asking these questions of yourself is a really sensible approach, and indeed asking yourself why you might need that basement cage - is it because you genuinely need more longer-term storage to get access to mature wines in the future, or it's simply making room to indulge the wine buying habit? FWIW that's not such an easy question to answer!

For me, cellaring wine was very much a huge part of the hobby. Not only do I like mature (or indeed over-mature) wines, I actively enjoyed the act of cellaring it myself as a way of 'earning' the future pleasure. However the comment about 'wanting to keep them' is a very pertinent one for me, as too often I'll make excuses not to open a bottle e.g. I'm saving it until I meet up with someone in particular, the right occasion, etc. etc. In hindsight I wished I could have shared the bottle I opened late last week, but I didn't know whether it would be great, ok or shot, so I opened it (and it was superb). I should do that more than I do! the fact that I'm a vinous butterfly, too often buying just single bottles of a vast variety of wines, does not help matters!

With limited space, there's also a tendency to set the bar high on what goes into it. That wasn't the case when I started, as I took great pleasure from cheaper cellaring wines e.g. Houghton White Burgundy, Tahlbilk Marsanne, rieslings, Rutherglen Estates Durif, and in the very early days the great value that even Penfolds wines could offer (amongst plenty of other fine value Aussie reds). Along the way, a tendency to only add wines into the cellar that 'justified' the space they took up crept in. Not entirely, but it did happen. It took trying a wine I used to love (Cahors) that re-opened my eyes to cheaper wines that still cellared well, and that I'd been missing out on a style of wine I enjoyed. So over the last 10-12 years, those cheaper cellaring wines have crept back in a bit more, as well as a few more 'ready to drink' wines, as the need for ultra long cellaring wines fades away.

[Ian S]

...and in terms of units of measurement, I was always amused by a wine forum signature which defined the 'millihelen' : The amount of beauty required to launch a single ship.

[Chuck]

All (well mostly all) wine is good; it's just some are better than others. Cellaring allows me to enjoy the tasting journey albeit over a shorter period than preferred. My modest cellar of around 400 bottles is just about all I need or allowed to hold given limited space and not ideal conditions. 4 x 12x12 bordeaux racks in a number of contiguous dark internal cupboard works for me. Just need to ensure it is added to at the withdrawal rate. After 3 years in Sydney (moved from Adelaide) short term cellaring (say up to 5-7 years) seems to work and the decision as to what wine to drink always puts a smile on the dial. I don't keep a written list but do have a mental note of what is available. The only problem is trying to find them. The search can be enlightening. Buying bargains is fun too.

[mjs]

My cellaring has evolved considerably over a very enjoyable 50 year (so far) wine journey. I remember when I left my first proper post-uni job in Melbourne for the adventures of London in the early 80's, I took what wine I had (mostly South Australian) back to the family home in Adelaide where my "cellar" was an eight level sculpted pine rack in the dining room! That style of wine rack was ubiquitous at the time and it was the height of sophistication

Didn't really have a cellar or collection in London as I was devouring Bordeaux and Burgundy as fast as I could buy it. Returning to Melbourne saw wine in cupboards, dining rooms and dark hallways of a couple of terrace houses. A brief sojourn under my parents-in-law's house while my wife and I went to Thailand for work for three few years, we did take the sculpted pine rack with us along with eight doz wines Then back in Melbourne, back to our terrace house for a while, then a new split-level house in '96 where there was reasonable under floor space, which I enlarged a bit to form a reasonable "cellar". Eventually outgrew that, so a fair bit was syphoned off to professional storage in Melbourne. Left those wines in storage when we came back to Adelaide 3 1/2 years ago to a 110yo stone villa with a proper cellar, which was put to good use, with a minor overflow sent to professional storage in Adelaide. Finally brought the Melbourne wine to Adelaide a couple of weeks ago and have now consolidated most of my wine in professional storage, with 50 doz or so in the cellar at home, which is pretty good and will see me through! Now just trying to figure out which wine to pull out for a significant birthday in a couple of months

[VinoEd]

By my estimations I’ve got about 800 bottles of wine in off site storage, which has some capacity left, along with some quaffer wine at home in a rack (say 30 bottles) and a Vintec (of older stuff or the very high end) which has about another 30 in it.

The professional storage has a mix of stuff, and I need a better system of storing it so I can find things and consume things with a bit more order. At the moment it’s a lot of mixed boxes of things that are poorly labelled and some inaccessible without shifting a bunch of stuff with no idea what’s in them!

It’s definitely an obsession buying wine. I’ve started to limit my purchasing a bit more this year but am still buying wines that I want, just trying less new things and passing on stuff that doesn’t have the highest of appeal.

I’m in my late 30’s and figure I can just buy 3-6 of the 10-15 things I really want each plus some auction buys and it will hold me in very good stead. My 50 year old self will be appreciative of the ground work done to date.

The problem is sites like this and the constant desire to try new things!

Cheers Ed

[JamieAdelaide]

Had a $1000 Barbaresco in front of the telly the other night. Love my cellar. Keeps giving. Think I paid $180 fo the wine 15 years ago. Also been taking amazing wines from the cellar and happy paying high BYO prices versus paying exorbitant wine list price at restaurants.

[SipAndANibble]

I’m only just starting out and for now have a 50 bottle wine fridge that’s near capacity, so I’m more so ‘ one in, one out’ for now.

I’ve mostly got big Australian reds in there at the moment and letting them develope, but I’d like to get some nice whites such as Chardonnay’/semillion/dry and sweet rieslings , and then a lot more Bordeaux and Italian wines, some rioja, lots of things…!

I’m definitely building the wine obsession and as my disposable income goes up, so it will my wine holdings in the future.

I don’t drink a whole lot but when I do I want to enjoy a good bottle.

There’s soo much out there though and soo much to learn, I think I have a long way to go. But that’s ok ! I’ll get there.

It does seem a bit bizarre to me that certain wines need to be kept for 10-15 years++ before they reach their peak !

[mjs]

Had a $1000 Barbaresco in front of the telly the other night. Love my cellar. Keeps giving. Think I paid $180 fo the wine 15 years ago. Also been taking amazing wines from the cellar and happy paying high BYO prices versus paying exorbitant wine list price at restaurants.

Jamie,

The benefits of proper storage over time! I have some Penfolds special bin wines that I will open in a month or so that are similar.

cheers, Malcolm

[Ian S]

There’s soo much out there though and soo much to learn, I think I have a long way to go. But that’s ok ! I’ll get there.

A fine attitude, and the world of wine is so big that all of us have huge gaps in knowledge and experience. The journey is fun though.

It does seem a bit bizarre to me that certain wines need to be kept for 10-15 years++ before they reach their peak !

Cellaring was always a strong element of my enjoyment of the hobby, and I liked making that commitment to cellaring, be it fancy wines, or more modest ones that nonetheless have a strong track record in the cellar.

We probably make too much of the need for cellaring, especially with the modern trend towards accessibility in wines that previously demanded cellaring. i.e. many are good wines in youth and even firm tannins & acidity can be kept in check by vibrant fruit.

However for some, it's important to taste older bottles to see why people do it. Hunter Valley semillon is one of the best examples of this, the mature versions being strikingly different to those fresh off the bottling line.

Every now and again there's a lightbulb moment from fully mature wines, that shows such complexity, individuality and balance, that drives the desire to extend that cellaring period. I recall opening a 1969 red burgundy that had a longtime burgophile questioning whether he'd drunk all his wines too young - it was utterly stunning, and not from an especially sought after appellation/producer.

The next 2-3 old wines drunk may be past their best / tired, but those highlights live long in the memory.

[SipAndANibble]

Yes very intriguing ! I’ve read about the maturation process and am aware in theory of the initial primary fruit, fading into secondary and then into tertiary, and that maturation helps soften the tannins in a wine, but I haven’t tasted it. I might look to buy a few old bottles so I can get more familiar with it. But for now I’m more just following the crowd in what’s generally sought after.

I have heard a lot about hunter valley semillion and it is on my radar, particularly Tyrrell’s. And yes have also heard about ethereal experiences with aged red burgundies , maybe some day ! I can’t see myself ever forking out for a bottle of DRC though hahaha

The first wine that got me into wine was a selbach oster Riesling kabinett from 2017, was only cheap too - $20-$30 a bottle too. I started with sweet Rieslings and have now gravitated towards big reds.

But yeah I can definitely see myself enjoying the collection aspect of cellaring, and am looking forward to building up a layered cellar. It’ll obviously take a bit of an investment in time to build up a buffer of drinkable wines initially, but I can see the forward position that once I have wines in their drinking window that it’ll be easier to buy long haul wines that can sit and age while I drink what’s currently ready.

At the moment it is a bit far away to be buying Bordeaux that needs to wait 10-15 years to be drunk !

And I guess the other point is learning to recognise value and quality without the big ‘ Mercedes ‘ price tag. I figure best to start with local Australian wines where the value would be best.

[Ian S]

You've got a good approach.

Re: the last element, I've found better value away from the prestigious / well-known appellations. e.g. areas like Cahors, (better) vinho verde, Loire cab franc, but also away from the top names of a region, whose wines often carry (too much of) a premium. This can mean a bit of digging around for value, but that can be a lot of fun. The very best way is to visit a wine region and make a point of including some lesser known / unknown wineries with the 'names' of the region. Starting local makes sense, but it can end up that visiting wineries becomes a part of holidays abroad.

oh, and re: older wines... offlines with board members will be a great way to get exposure to older / mature wines. Those who have them take pleasure in sharing the experience, as it feels better than sitting at home with a good bottle and realising you'd love for others to try it.

[Michael McNally]

My "cellar" was an eight level sculpted pine rack in the dining room! That style of wine rack was ubiquitous at the time and it was the height of sophistication

Had one of those in the early 90s in Brisbane. The start of my cellar. A number of years overseas and I came back to some cooked Hunter Chardonnay and awesome ports.

Started buying more than I drank late 90s with a big heavy cupboard under the house for storage. Stayed like that through uni and early married life. Eventually got a small offsite locker in Milton, that went under in the 2011 floods. Not a dud wine from those though.

In the renovations of our home (also 2011) I set aside a small room for a cellar on the plans and it stayed there (bigger/smaller/moved around) until the final drawings. Picked up some racks being chucked out by a bottle shop (4 x 216 bottle) and attached them to the walls and stuck in an aircon.

Currently sitting around 1700 bottles and need to get rid of some, okay lots, but hard to do so. The pleasure of drinking an old mature wine (a recent 2009 The Story Grampians Shiraz springs to mind) or a young wine (last night's 2020 Le Petit Vanguard Grenache only stored for a couple of years) is wonderful.

It's a great passion!

Cheers

Michael

[Sean]

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[Mike Hawkins]

I think the 04 Grange might end up better than the ones you’ve listed… though I haven’t tried the 18.

[Sean]

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[Ian S]

It's a tougher audience in Australia wrt VA and indeed brett.

FWIW I can enjoy both in moderation, and indeed a favourite wine Musar was noted for both, but especially VA. A number of followers of the wine (myself included) worry it's become too clean cut, losing a part of its personality in the process. Those 'faulty' wines performed brilliantly over many decades.

For a wine as big as Grange, I can see how a little VA could be a positive for me, adding lift and nuance. Others I'm sure will strongly disagree. I find it very hard to believe you'll end up with a bottle of vinegar but important to understand your own preferences for VA, whether zero tolerance, or more flexible.

[Sean]

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[Ian S]

Really good (and interesting) detail - thanks for that Sean

Yes VA can increase over time, stealing a current quote from the wonderful Otto Forsberg on another wine forum, in response to a question about heat affecting VA

... acetic acid is produced not only by acetobacter infection. Higher temperatures increase chemical processes and acetic acid can be produced by oxidation of acetaldehyde (which itself is produced by oxidation of ethanol).

This process does take some time...

As an aside, I'd recommend anyone who finds themselves in Emilia-Romagna, to consider a visit to a balsamic vinegar producer. It's an interesting process, including the journey through progressively smaller barrels the vinegar passes through. Tasting is a real eye-opener as well, with the basic 8-10 year bottlings often being very good and very useful in the kitchen, but the gold (c.25 year) bottlings really are something else. Perhaps it might remind you a touch of the 4 level classification of rutherglen stickies. One small word of warning though ... we were told that summer visits can require a bit of care, as entering the area where the vinegars are stored can give an overwhelming impact. We tend to go c. October or April/May which was fine.

[Nanachiee]

Sean, it's been a whole day and I don't see an update on the "Sean Chronicles" yet, please don't leave me hanging. I'm completely invested and missing a daily update after those novels is too much of a tease.

Sincerely, long time reader, first time poster.

[GraemeG]

...and in terms of units of measurement, I was always amused by a wine forum signature which defined the 'millihelen' : The amount of beauty required to launch a single ship.

That was me, for a while, somewhere!

On Grange: cellaring trumps winemaking, winemaking trumps vintage. Vintage is core, but subject to so many variables afterwards.
Given 'decent' cellaring, it's rarely less than a great wine - in my limited experience - but it very rarely justifies its release price in the 21st century. Folks who bought up big in the 20th, esp if they could get decent prices post-1990 vintage - are sitting on lovely wines.

I use Cellartracker for the perspective on the wines I've tasted - so as a note repository, to see how wines change, to stop me buying at auction wines I've already tried and was disappointed in, and to just 'take my palate for a stroll' at - hopefully - sensible prices (also auction). I remain aware of the risk of poor storage when buying at auction, which is why I'm something of a bottom-feeder!

[Ian S]

thankyou for that Graeme - it very much tickled my sense of humour.

[Ian S]

I remain aware of the risk of poor storage when buying at auction, which is why I'm something of a bottom-feeder!

Similar for me, though it's been a while since I dabbled in local auctions. If bidding, I always researched the retail price (and browsed CT TNs). Given retail prices could be out of whack with reality, just as much as auction prices could be, it was difficult to apply a hard and fast rule, but I'd probably be aiming for half to 2/3 of retail price as a rough rule of thumb. I also very much made a habit of pursuing the lesser known wines and avoiding the famous labels. The fewer fellow bidders, the more likely there was a bargain to be had.

[saturn5519]

Sean I enjoy reading your posts,so much info.Look out James Halliday,I think there's a alternative book in the offering here.Wine tasting/drinking adventures with Sean and Wendy.
Could be a best seller in the future.