International reality check, where do we sit?

[marsalla]

Ian,
Italian wines are similar to their cars, while some very good cars are made, ie ferrari etc, there also a lot of alfasuds around that you would not drive, let alone own.

The italians realised they had a problem a few years ago and have adapted to the market. They still realise that their strength is their autoctonous varieties, but they are not scared of trying other varieties in order to please the punter, something the french havent quite got to the idea of. The fact that cabernet is now used in the super tuscans is an example of this. It has improved those wines. I cannot imagine the bordelais trying syrah, let alone sangiovese.

but I digress, Yes there are some good wines out there in Italy, but I get sick of taking the gamble. I am in the south, so we dont see a lot of nortyhern wines, the italians are very parochial about their wine and food, so you dont see wines from piedmonte let alone france or australia.

Italian wines when well done taste like no other country, however a lot is not done well. At times there is not any relationship between price and quality. All Iknow is that below
€5 it is very risky and above it I would say you have about A 50% CHANCE OF BEING DISAPPOINTED,

You should try some from the south though, they have the best chance of giving a good bang for your buck, primitivo and nero d avola are both great varieties

cheers

[Ian S]

You should try some from the south though, they have the best chance of giving a good bang for your buck, primitivo and nero d avola are both great varieties

cheers

Marsalla
Yes, I've tried some already (such as Taurasi & others from Campania and a small number from Sicilia on a visit to Lipari). Nero D'Avola is indeed pretty good & tremendous value.
We also have odd bottles of Donnafugata "Mille & Una Notte"; Cusamano "Noa" and Cuomo "Gran Furore Riserva", but I figure these can sleep for a year or three before drinking.

Where in the south are you based? I'm always looking for new areas of Italy to go, especially with flights as low as £50 return, so any recommendations welcomed!

Ian

[Guest]

I cannot imagine the bordelais trying syrah, let alone sangiovese.

In years past the Bordelaise were known to slip a bit of Syrah into their wines, just as the Burgundians liked to blend in a bit of Algerian plonk.

BTW, I do like Italian wines, but tend to find that a good number are overpriced, particularly once they get a good Gambero Rosso or Parker rating.

Cheers
Phil

[marsalla]

a good rating from the wine guides is the best investment you can make in italy

[KMP]

I've hesitsted to get involved in a slinging match of generalizations here because I've tasted good and bad wines from all over the world. But the best red I've had was French, while some of the worst wines, red and white, have been French. Certainly the worst value for money has been French see-thru, however the best value for money would have to be Aussie muscats followed by German rieslings.

This post from the Squires/Parker forum should add fuel to the fire.

Mike

[Alan Rath]

A California perspective: First, what you read on sites like BBR is old-line old-world conservative wine propaganda, so take it for what it's worth. Second: they are to some extent correct And I say this as a follower of both Australian and California wine. The truth is, you probabaly can't find any wine from either place that beats the best wines from Europe in each category. Riesling? neither Oz nor Cal can hold a candle to the best from Germany and Austria. Pinot? Definitely not Aus, and California is pretty much 2nd tier across the board, with maybe an exception or two that can come close. Cabernet? Some fantastic tasting wines from the New World, but none have the complexity and structure of the best Bordeaux. Syrah? Here we get to a crossroads. Most of the big Aussie and Cal Shiraz/Syrah are great fun to drink, but don't have the class of the best French counterparts. But I do think there are some that are getting close.

I drink probably 80% new world wines, mainly because my tastes tend to favor them (at least in the moderate price ranges), they are more readily available at prices I can afford, etc., etc. But I have to say that a far higher percentage of the "epiphanies" in my wine drinking experience have been old-world wines. I think we just have to get over this kind of comparison: the guy on the cover of any GQ looks mighty fine in his modern souped-up threads, but for sheer class, you can't beat black tie and tails

Cheers,
Alan

[TORB]

Alan,

Comparing Port to Rare Tokay or Muscat has about as much validity as comparing Shiraz to Cabernet Sauvignon. (Shiraz and Cabernet are both red where as Port and Liquor Muscat are both fortified.)

They are completely different styles and grape varities.

In terms of comparison betwen old world and new world wines, especially Shiraz, it all depends on your starting reference point. How can you compare a young in your face headonistic Barossa Shiraz with an old style Rhone, they are like chalk and cheese but they may have a grape variety in common. Who is to say that the Barossa wine is not better because it has more flavour when its young?

Like I said, it all depends on your starting point and what you are looking for.

[Alan Rath]

Alan,
Comparing Port to Rare Tokay or Muscat has about as much validity as comparing Shiraz to Cabernet Sauvignon. (Shiraz and Cabernet are both red where as Port and Liquor Muscat are both fortified.)

Rick, I have no idea what you're talking about. Never said any such thing You're obviously delusional with all that inferior stuff you've been drinking

Alan

[TORB]

Alan,
Comparing Port to Rare Tokay or Muscat has about as much validity as comparing Shiraz to Cabernet Sauvignon. (Shiraz and Cabernet are both red where as Port and Liquor Muscat are both fortified.)

Rick, I have no idea what you're talking about. Never said any such thing You're obviously delusional with all that inferior stuff you've been drinking

Alan,

No doubt I am delusional, but that has nothing to do with it.

The "Last edited by Alan Rath on Sat 22 Jan, 2005 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total" is a dead giveaway.

I also edited my post but it was to add the last paragraph.

[Alan Rath]

You need to remind Gavin to shorten the editing time window...

What I had originally written, which Ric called me out on (reasonably) was:

"Oh, and as for the Aussie stickies holding their own? no way. Great stuff, fun to drink, but can't compare to the top tier TBA, Eiswein, Vintage Port, Colheita Port, etc. Coincidentally, I attended the "Australia Day" wine tasting event in San Francisco, and had the great pleasure of meeting and chatting with Colin Campbell. He was there promoting the Rutherglen region, not necessarily his own wines. But I had the chance to try the Campbells Rare Muscat. Thick, rich, unctious, really nice wine. But doesn't quite measure up to, a great Vintage Port, or, say, a top 1937 Colheita Port. Just doesn't have the complexity and nuance of those wines. My opinion, of course. For whatever reason, we new-worlders don't make wines at the very top level, maybe it's the age of the vines, maybe it's the growing conditions or winemaking, maybe it's the tastes of our respective populations, I don't know. But it's a fact."

So I did a little apple/orange comparison . I'll stick with my point, however, which is that the premier old-world wines usually beat out the best of their new-world counterparts. A Noble One, though a nice wine, can't hold its own against most of the top Sauternes, for example (same for the meager attempts here in California to produce botrytized sweet wines). One of these days I'm going to break the bank, and drop the cash on a 100yr Seppelt - maybe that can hold its own against an equivalent Colheita from Portugal. But I've also got to spend 2-3 times as much to get it

Regards,
Alan

[Alan Rath]

In terms of comparison betwen old world and new world wines, especially Shiraz, it all depends on your starting reference point. How can you compare a young in your face headonistic Barossa Shiraz with an old style Rhone, they are like chalk and cheese but they may have a grape variety in common. Who is to say that the Barossa wine is not better because it has more flavour when its young?

Oh, I agree with you. Remember, I drink way more Australian Shiraz than French Syrah, partly because to get to the quality level (for my tastes) I have to spend a lot more on the French than the Oz. I'm only saying that I think the top end benchmarks are still being set by the old-world wines.

Cheers,
Alan

[Colin]

This has been a fascinating discussion thread and one that could hold our interest for a further month but in order to avoid a Bay of Pigs type incident we should take stock of what has been said.

My interest was raised by an international vintage chart regarding premium wines.

Without taking too much licence it would be fair to say the following:

1. New world reds, whites and sparklies are not quite to the quality of old world wines when you compare the best of the best but are making inroads.
2. The exception to the above would be Australian fortifieds from across a range of producers which can rightly make a claim for world best status.
2. New world wines are more reliable and much better VFM.

Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this locally and from abroad.

At the end of the day we all enjoy drinking wine for the same reason, to help us forget about George Doubya, sorry Gavin just joking I know I shouldn't say names.

Happy drinking

Colin

[JamieBahrain]

In Australia I find it is easy to be lulled into a false sense of security with our wine quality.

For example, a Guigal Cotes du Rhone bought locally, is compared to the $20 a bottle price range of Australian shiraz. In reality, this wine costs about as much as Jacob's Creek shiraz in France. So probably should be compared against such.

Superb Cote Rotie, I like to use Ogier's or Georges Vernay as my case in point as personal favourites, is the equivalent price of Bannockburn shiraz in France, yet here sells for over a $100 a bottle with all the expectations of that price bracket.

The great single vineyard wines of Cote Rotie and Hermitage, will no doubt double in price again soon, few in Australia experience them but will compare them versus Australian shiraz on price only. But ignoring price and considering grand vintages of Grange & HofG, aswell as emerging wines such as 3Rivers etc, our inroads are quite impressive. With stylistic differences.

Our riesling is good to. Very different to the Old World but emerging and holding it's own IMHO.

So apart from shiraz and maybe riesling, we are a long way off the great wines of the world in all other departments.

It would not hurt to see ourselves as average producers of cabernet, chardonnay, pinot noir and merlot.

[Bob]

In Australia I find it is easy to be lulled into a false sense of security with our wine quality.

So apart from shiraz and maybe riesling, we are a long way off the great wines of the world in all other departments.

It would not hurt to see ourselves as average producers of cabernet, chardonnay, pinot noir and merlot.

I'm not sure I understand why Oz winelovers are so defensive when it comes to the quality of Oz wines. I drink mostly Oz now, but up until 4 years ago is was almost all Californian. I just can't see an American, unless they were actually in the wine business, getting so upset by someone saying French wines were superior. I myself have never had a French wine I really liked, including a Ch. Lafitte that someone gave me in return for a favor; I hope it was corked, because I dread to think that any winemaker intended it to taste the way it did. I find the French wines too austere, or as someone else said "insipid", so I was easily won over by Oz shiraz, which I think (considering only New World wines) are the best reds around. There seem to be a few nice Oz cabs, but I would have to say there are dozens of Cali cabs that closely compete at most price points. With the strong OZ $, I guess I'll be looking for a few more Cali cabs. The cheap Oz chards are an excellent value; open a bottle to cook with and there's no harm in drinking the rest. But I still prefer California chard, probably because they are more in-your-face, not unlike Oz shiraz, and that is what I like. The few Oz straight merlot that I have had recommended to me were not worth drinking. But some of the shiraz-grenache blends and especially the cab-shiraz blends are truly wonderful.

[Chow Chow]

Ian,

but I digress, Yes there are some good wines out there in Italy, but I get sick of taking the gamble. I am in the south, so we dont see a lot of nortyhern wines, the italians are very parochial about their wine and food,
cheers

Hi marsalla, for Italian wines I choose those made by my fav. winemaker - Ricardo Cotarella. His Lamborghini Campoleone 1997 was the best Italian I've ever drank.

[Guest]

snobbery comes in many forms mate.

these experts are free to say what they like,

if they all loved Australian wine above everything else it would probably be obscenely overpriced by now.
luckily for us, it isn't.

[Paul T]

At the very top end France is streets ahead. People who don't like hearing this should get out more (although we all have different tastes). Australia makes great Australian wines. No doubt. I agree with Croser we need to make more "very bloody special" wines.

GW

Wise words Gary

Cheers

Paul