China targets Australian wine industry

[Benchmark]

Drive through Laos, Thailand, and Malaysia to see the gentle hand of China's foreign policy...

[Mahmoud Ali]

Drive through Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya (to mention a few) and see the not so gentle hand of US foreign policy.

Choose your poison, economic and political influence versus sanctions and destruction, bankers in suits with briefcases versus military men in fatigues with guns.

[JamieBahrain]

Drive through Laos, Thailand, and Malaysia to see the gentle hand of China's foreign policy...

Nice roads though.

How's KL?

[Benchmark]

Drive through Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya (to mention a few) and see the not so gentle hand of US foreign policy.

Choose your poison, economic and political influence versus sanctions and destruction, bankers in suits with briefcases versus military men in fatigues with guns.

Great story, but we are talking about China and its soft approach to foreign policy.

No one is suggesting US has a 'dove-like' foreign policy, so it is not an argument.

Felix however, has been drinking the CCP Kool-aid.

[Benchmark]

Drive through Laos, Thailand, and Malaysia to see the gentle hand of China's foreign policy...

Nice roads though.

How's KL?

Another four months modified lockdown, but not so bad.

Getting very itchy feet to travel. Only so many times you can marvel at the tea plantations of Genting haha.

Are you doing ok? Things are rocky there even without COVID.

[felixp21]

Drive through Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya (to mention a few) and see the not so gentle hand of US foreign policy.

Choose your poison, economic and political influence versus sanctions and destruction, bankers in suits with briefcases versus military men in fatigues with guns.

Great story, but we are talking about China and its soft approach to foreign policy.

No one is suggesting US has a 'dove-like' foreign policy, so it is not an argument.

Felix however, has been drinking the CCP Kool-aid.

hahaha, gosh, life must me so simple when you are born stupid.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Felix however, has been drinking the CCP Kool-aid.

What kind of remark is that? Well, I do know, but it is in poor taste as it drifts into the realm of a smear and not fair comment.

[Benchmark]

Felix however, has been drinking the CCP Kool-aid.

What kind of remark is that? Well, I do know, but it is in poor taste as it drifts into the realm of a smear and not fair comment.

Smear? How so?

It is an expression he young folk use when someone is looking through rose coloured glasses at a situation.

[Benchmark]

Drive through Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya (to mention a few) and see the not so gentle hand of US foreign policy.

Choose your poison, economic and political influence versus sanctions and destruction, bankers in suits with briefcases versus military men in fatigues with guns.

Great story, but we are talking about China and its soft approach to foreign policy.

No one is suggesting US has a 'dove-like' foreign policy, so it is not an argument.

Felix however, has been drinking the CCP Kool-aid.

hahaha, gosh, life must me so simple when you are born stupid.

Before you call me stupid, did you want to discuss the 'dove like' policy of the CCP surrounding the following-

Hong Kong
South China Sea
Trade restrictions on Laos until they approved the fast train to Thailand.

Born stupid? What are you, 12?

[Mahmoud Ali]

Felix however, has been drinking the CCP Kool-aid.

What kind of remark is that? Well, I do know, but it is in poor taste as it drifts into the realm of a smear and not fair comment.

Smear? How so?
It is an expression he young folk use when someone is looking through rose coloured glasses at a situation.

I do think you need to step back a little and read up on the origin of the term and how it has been used. "Young folk"? I suspect they don't even know about Jonestown and they, like you, are unaware of the origin of the term, which is why I said what I said what I did, as did Felix. Perhaps we're just a bit more historically grounded than just faddish.

Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

Yeah. Let's ban potentially offensive idioms from the forum. I must get around to complaining to Gavin.

[Jimmya]

Yep, too many flogs on this thread

[felixp21]

well, "Benchmark" (and its easy to see what you are the "benchmark" for), as a medical specialist with three degrees, who came top 0.5% in the State year 12, let's assume I'm not stupid, I think that would be reasonable.

strange that I am drinking your "kool aid" (I am surprised someone like you didn't refer to Zyklon B in your wonderful address)

my wife was educated in England, completed her masters at Oxford university, and had any number of career prospects offered her in London, but returned to China. Topped her course in WuHan uni, one of China's finest. Strange she too seems to be taking a sip.

the lawyer I employ to do our company contracts went to Melbourne Grammar, did Law at Melbourne Uni, and sadly for him, remains a mad keen Carlton supporter. Chose to come back to SZ, despite being offered plenty of opportunities back in Melbourne. Another crazy sipper.

my best mate in China is an orthopaedic surgeon, was in private practice in Chicago for seven years, but returned hom to SZ because he didn't want his kids growing up in America. Must be your "kool aid" again.

I could go on for hours about the "kool aid" drinkers who choose to live in a country they see as well-run, safe, peaceful and progressive. I personally know scores of them.

The only thing strange, actually, is that I feel sorry for ignorant fools like you.

[TiggerK]

Hmm, defensive much? Thread rapidly becoming a train wreck, but that's politics in this day and age, discussions best avoided on wine forums I would suggest.

[Gavin Trott]

Please END all personal attacks, that is NOT what the forum is for. If not, I will freeze this thread, which will defeat the purpose of sharing information, supposedly about wine!

[phillisc]

Thank you Gavin for closing this trash down...so tired of the elitist tone.
Will be taking a bit of a break from the forum, (which is a pity), as there are some serious family issues which now demand my priority, even over wine

Cheers Craig

[Benchmark]

well, "Benchmark" (and its easy to see what you are the "benchmark" for), as a medical specialist with three degrees, who came top 0.5% in the State year 12, let's assume I'm not stupid, I think that would be reasonable.

strange that I am drinking your "kool aid" (I am surprised someone like you didn't refer to Zyklon B in your wonderful address)

my wife was educated in England, completed her masters at Oxford university, and had any number of career prospects offered her in London, but returned to China. Topped her course in WuHan uni, one of China's finest. Strange she too seems to be taking a sip.

the lawyer I employ to do our company contracts went to Melbourne Grammar, did Law at Melbourne Uni, and sadly for him, remains a mad keen Carlton supporter. Chose to come back to SZ, despite being offered plenty of opportunities back in Melbourne. Another crazy sipper.

my best mate in China is an orthopaedic surgeon, was in private practice in Chicago for seven years, but returned hom to SZ because he didn't want his kids growing up in America. Must be your "kool aid" again.

I could go on for hours about the "kool aid" drinkers who choose to live in a country they see as well-run, safe, peaceful and progressive. I personally know scores of them.

The only thing strange, actually, is that I feel sorry for ignorant fools like you.

Nice essay.

I don't really care for a circle jerk around you, your wife, and all your friend's credentials.

If you could stay on topic instead of posting your resume and address how the South China Sea is a 'dove like' foreign policy, that would be nice.

Or are you just going to deflect and bang on about how good you are?

[TiggerK]

Thank you Gavin for closing this trash down...so tired of the elitist tone.
Will be taking a bit of a break from the forum, (which is a pity), as there are some serious family issues which now demand my priority, even over wine

Cheers Craig

Yeah it's the unwelcome egos and inability to chill of just a few here that we would be happier without.

Thoughts are with you Craig, hope you get through the issues OK.

Cheers
Tim

[JamieBahrain]

Somehow we need to learn to talk about this topic. China is way bigger than Bob Parker. And this forum was once littered with debate on Parker's influence.

The Rise of China will affect many here. It will massively affect the Australian wine industry and its direction. For forumites, buying habits, loss of favourites or their rapid return! Loss of livelihoods and wealth too. Hard to enjoy fine wine if you lose your job or your portfolio wiped.

[JamieBahrain]

(Bloomberg) -- Australia’s winemakers have been hit by a second Chinese government probe, as trade tensions between the countries escalate

From this morning's news.

[Polymer]

I could go on for hours about the "kool aid" drinkers who choose to live in a country they see as well-run, safe, peaceful and progressive. I personally know scores of them.
.

You couldn't say anything but that though...given you live in China and you don't know how much the Chinese government can see you do, etc (or you do and know what I mean). You'd potentially be creating problems for yourself if you criticized the government....it just wouldn't be worth doing in some wine forum of all things.

That said, let's get back to the actual issue here which is China's influence on the Australian wine industry....

[Gavin Trott]

YES PLEASE!

[Polymer]

(Bloomberg) -- Australia’s winemakers have been hit by a second Chinese government probe, as trade tensions between the countries escalate

From this morning's news.

Looks like this is about subsidies and how that relates to possible dumping...Which I think was mentioned earlier as far as WET.

Do we know how Australian wine is priced in China compared to other countries?

[Mahmoud Ali]

(Bloomberg) -- Australia’s winemakers have been hit by a second Chinese government probe, as trade tensions between the countries escalate

From this morning's news.

Looks like this is about subsidies and how that relates to possible dumping...Which I think was mentioned earlier as far as WET.

Do we know how Australian wine is priced in China compared to other countries?

Thanks guys for bringing this thread back on track.

Indeed this thread is about China's threatening Australian wine imports. If I can distill what has been said, the Chinese Government is threatening the Australian wine industry in retaliation for Australia's backing of the US Government attacks on China, in the arena of Covid-19 and Huawei. It doesn't really matter whether there is any validity to the claim, only that it is enough to cause concern to the industry in question and that they pressure the government to moderate their behaviour.

A couple of years ago the US used the national security clause in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) to levy a tariff on imports of Canadian aluminium. Of course it was a bogus claim but the clause was there and the Americans used it. In retaliation Canada levied retaliatory tariffs on the equivalent amount of trade but did it selectively, on products from US states that were highly dependent on exports to Canada. As a result those industries and the Senators from those states were motivated to pressure the US government. China is probably trying to do the same thing: claiming to be investigating a dumping complaint to retaliate against Australia's actions in support of the United States. As I understand it, from the Decanter article, it is against a number of wine companies and not the WET tax.

Cheers ..................... Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

It's not specific to the WET tax..that's not something they have any say in.

But WET plays a part in how wine is priced and more importantly, the WET rebate is basically a subsidy....

So while of course the claim is just there to try to influence the Australian government for other things.....the Australian wine industry isn't dumping (I don't think) wine into China..and certainly is not competing with Chinese wine....but you can definitely make an argument that they are dumping..if just by looking at pricing, subsidies, etc...maybe knowing the finer details it would come up it isn't but that doesn't really matter in the shorter/medium term.

The real question is, will the wine industry allow foreign states to influence them so much they'd go after their own government to make changes...Once you allow them to do that, they own you..it's over..

[felixp21]

"'Do we know how Australian wine is priced in China compared to other countries?"

for about the past 12 months, since the FTA, Australian wine prices in China have decreased significantly. Now quite competitive with other countries.
As an example, Bin 389 is about $80 AUD, give or take with currency fluctuations. The latest release, I think 2017, is probably more, I can only quote from early March this year.

[Mahmoud Ali]

WET is applicable on domestic and imported wine sales, not on exports. Just like VAT or GST, it is either not applicable or rebated when the product is exported. That is not considered to be a subsidy.

[Dragzworthy]

WET is applicable on domestic and imported wine sales, not on exports. Just like VAT or GST, it is either not applicable or rebated when the product is exported. That is not considered to be a subsidy.

I agree. I don't understand how this argument is flouted with regards to the WET creating anti competitive behaviour from Australia. It's effectively a uniform tax on domestically purchased goods no matter the origin.

[Polymer]

WET is applicable on domestic and imported wine sales, not on exports. Just like VAT or GST, it is either not applicable or rebated when the product is exported. That is not considered to be a subsidy.

For sales domestically, they have a WET REBATE. Which IS a subsidy.

I agree. I don't understand how this argument is flouted with regards to the WET creating anti competitive behaviour from Australia. It's effectively a uniform tax on domestically purchased goods no matter the origin.

I don't necessarily disagree...I'm saying WET may make it look like it is priced higher...it doesn't matter whether it is actually true, they are just investigating...it might take a long time to deal w/ the issue...and we've already determined, this has nothing to do with dumping and has everything to do with putting pressure on an Australian Industry in an attempt to try to get them to put pressure on Australian politicians...so this just has to look like it might be in the realm of possibility.

But you add the WET Rebate, and that IS a subsidy. You can argue that applies only to domestic sales...but regardless, it is a subsidy....

[brodie]

Read this article this morning and thought it was somewhat relevant to this thread. As others has said this is politics at work

https://www.aspi.org.au/report/chinese-commu ... -diplomacy