Paid Cellar Door tastings to become the norm?

[ticklenow1]

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/aug/17 ... gs-forever

I personally have no problem paying for a tasting, as long as it’s someone behind the counter who actually knows what they are talking about and they serve the wine in decent glassware.

Be interested to hear others thoughts on the matter....

Cheers
Ian

[Cloth Ears]

A lot of them already are...based on the model that you get the tasting fee discounted off any purchases. And again, it's an 'all depends' scenario. Some places I go are happy to give you a tasting even though they normally charge (if you've eaten at their restaurant, chatted to the winemaker,...)
My local distillery doesn't charge me, nor the rum distillery (I have barrel shares) and a number of the wineries don't either. It must be my smiling face?
Some of the wineries would only put a tasting fee on the older/more expensive wines, leaving you to taste their regulars and decide for yourself.

Oh, I always spit as it's not worth losing you license (no matter how good the wine), and sometimes that makes all the difference. Many wineries aren't happy to have their tastings chugged back by groups of people just looking for a pub-crawl.

[Waiters Friend]

I agree that there's different applications of fees wherever you go. When I worked on cellar door (quite a few years ago now), there was a per head fee, but refundable on purchase, and rarely charged. I've also seen many places that offer tasting of their range for free, with a small surcharge for the premium wines.

Personally, I'm OK with tasting fees. I tend to taste selectively anyway (i.e. not go through every wine on offer), and would only baulk at a tasting fee if it was unreasonable (as a ratio of the bottle price, for example).

Cheers
Allan

[Dragzworthy]

I am selective where I taste and I rarely walk away from a tasting without a purchase...though I'm the type that would dislike leaving an unfavourable impression. I have no issue in paying for a tasting, in fact it may actually be a good outcome as I'd avoid buying wines I don't like (lol) just to avoid the guilt..and there's the added bonus of a less crowded venue with the pub crawl groups absent

[Chuck]

I am always happy to pay a reasonable fee for tasting IF they give you a decent amount. It's hard to assess a wine based on a dribble in the glass that is so often the norm. 2 decent sips at least. That way you really get to know the wine. Tasting fees keep the gluggers away so you have a more relaxed and enjoyable experience. We were in the south east of SA recently and dropped in to Ralph Fowler at Mount Benson. No fee charged and we were the only ones there. Great experience being served by his partner who was passionate about the wines. The current release Merlot is a cracker. Bought a few for ron.

[phillisc]

Most CDs that I go to are ones where I already have reasonable purchase history, or are part of a wine club. Perhaps I have been lucky, but haven't struck many CDs where I have had to pay, but 99%+ of the time buy something anyway.
Cheers Craig

[Matt@5453]

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/aug/17 ... gs-forever

I personally have no problem paying for a tasting, as long as it’s someone behind the counter who actually knows what they are talking about and they serve the wine in decent glassware.

Be interested to hear others thoughts on the matter....

Cheers
Ian

I agree, I have no issue paying for a tasting at all, as long as the experience is commensurate. I think that I have mentioned it before, the current COVID restrictions mandate that all tastings are to be seated. In my neck of the woods, a vast majority of cellar doors have moved to a flight of wines in the sit down format (typically 4 wines). Depending on the winery, they may offer various experiences/flights at different costs depending on their range. I have only heard of one instance where a customer 'blew up' at staff refusing to pay a fee for the high end offering (sense of entitlement, not uncommon in the wine consumer world), that customer was not served. Largely its working well and it is my preference for tasting wines. A side effect of COVID is better tasting experiences becoming available to consumers, which is a good thing. I think the old days of the old XL5 tasting glass are well and truly gone too, the quality of tasting glassware by and large is on the up.

[mjs]

I wouldn't know! We can't go to CDs in Vic atm

[Mattsy]

In the current climate- definitely acceptable.
I can always understand CD closer to major cities charging a fee to make tastings for large groups and bus tours worthwhile given those groups will be less likely to buy anything.
Never had an issue with anywhere in Aus charging too much. A trip to Napa 2 yr ago was more of an issue- not uncommon to see $50usd and only refunded if bought 3+ bottles!

[A_Steady]

I have always figured the cost of "Free" tastings (wine, staff, CD running costs etc) was included in the bottle sale price. Not much is actually ever free. Many CD's charge much more than retailers who have had delivery costs, retail stores, staff and also added their share of profit.

Changing to paid tastings, in my mind is a user pays system and fair - I doubt any will knock the recovery fee off the bottle price, but in the current environment that's probably fair.

[phillisc]

I wouldn't know! We can't go to CDs in Vic atm

Hopefully Mr Marshall lets you across the border too
Cheers craig

[tarija]

In two minds about paid tastings.

I am giving the winery a chance to directly market to me, and I have driven a long way to visit. And they want to charge me for this opportunity? When there is such red hot competition in the wine industry?

If a winery wants to charge, they better put in a cracking effort, eg. proper glass, proper pour sizes, maybe back vintages etc.

Most here have probably got large cellars, so wineries likely need to go above and beyond to try and win business. Just sending a few bottles to Halliday and Wine Front doesn't cut it.

[JamieBahrain]

With the advent of the internet I've found many CD visits uncomfortable. Few offer any value in buying from. So i don''t mind a tasting fee so I don't feel guilty walking out without buying

[Michael McNally]

So i don''t mind a tasting fee so I don't feel guilty walking out without buying

This. I like the freedom that the tasting fee gives you to say, "Thanks, that was nice. See you next time."

I agree tasting fees will become the norm and that there is a good reason for that (to charge the swillers who are just there for the free booze - not everyone but a good percentage). I do expect to have the fee taken off the purchase of a bottle though and regret not reversing my decision to purchase at Crittenden Estate when the amount on the EFTPos machine didn't take off the price of the (Premium) tasting fee even though I was buying multiple (including Premium) wines. I said "You haven't deducted the tasting fee" and the cellar door staff member said "We don't do that". I always wished I had said, "Well you should", and cancelled the wine part of the purchase. It soured my experience there certainly (the wines were top notch).

Compare that experience with Moss Wood where you paid $70(?) for a tour and tasting, in my case I was the only person there so it was a private tour. The tour and tasting were fantastic. At the end you can take the fee off any purchase. I bought two bottles of the Amy's cabernet blend for I think $38 each which meant they got $76, for giving up two bottles of one of their lesser wines, and I walked away happy as a pig in poop.

It's up to the owners how they run their business, but I know whose wines I am more likely to buy again in the future.

Cheers

Michael

[I Love Shiraz]

With the advent of the internet I've found many CD visits uncomfortable. Few offer any value in buying from. So i don''t mind a tasting fee so I don't feel guilty walking out without buying

I am totally with you here Jamie. I hate going to a cellar door, tasting the wine, and feeling obligated to purchase wine. If there is a low fee it would encourage me to visit cellar doors more often to prevent the guilt factor.

[pokolbinguy]

Keep in mind that the wine industry is one of very few who give away their products, time, effort and expertise for free in the hope that you will buy something.

You can't walk into a

- pub, have a middy/pot for free and if you like it buy a Schooner.
- restaraunt, have an entree for free, and if you like it buy a main
- accountant, get them to do your tax for free and if you like it come back next year
- builder, have them build you a dog kennel and if you like it build a granny flat

How many people do you know out there that would give away their products, time, effort and expertise for free and then cross their fingers?

Not a huge amount that I am aware of.

Remembering that it is not just the wine in the bottle that they are effectively giving away, but also in the background every other task that every employee does from the vineyard to winery to administration to cellar door all by serving their product for free.

Paid tastings to cover the bare cellar door minimums is the least one should expect and be happy to pay.

Edit - One other thing to keep in mind, pay rates in the wine industry, for Cellar doors, is quite a bit higher than those in a bottle shop. So the runnings costs of the CD are much higher on this front.

[sjw_11]

Keep in mind that the wine industry is one of very few who give away their products, time, effort and expertise for free in the hope that you will buy something.

You can't walk into a

- pub, have a middy/pot for free and if you like it buy a Schooner.

If you go to a good English pub they will let you taste a small amount of the real ales to see which one you want to pick ...

[Polymer]

Keep in mind that the wine industry is one of very few who give away their products, time, effort and expertise for free in the hope that you will buy something.

You can't walk into a

- pub, have a middy/pot for free and if you like it buy a Schooner.

If you go to a good English pub they will let you taste a small amount of the real ales to see which one you want to pick ...

Yeap...same with Gelato...Costco...

To me the best middle ground is if you buy something, the tasting fee gets credited back.

If you're going to charge for the tasting regardless then your CD should be very nice, you should have qualified individuals, you should be building the experience.

Even in Napa, while most charge and do not credit back..some (like Heitz) are still free...and a good number do credit you back. A lot depends on why they built their CD in the first place. Some of them that have built a 10million dollar facility, are planning to attract people and make money from tastings alone....but they up the experience (or at least how nice the building is) to give you something in return.

For sure, tourists just coming around to get sloshed are a big reason why tasting fees get implemented...but unless you're selling all the wine you want, getting people to try your wine is a great way to get new customers...giving them a poor experience is a great way to lose them...

[sjw_11]

To me the best middle ground is if you buy something, the tasting fee gets credited back.

Likewise.... although I would prefer the fee includes if not the "ultra premium" wines or such at least more than the entry level and middling wines.

[paulf]

Yep, Charge a fee, that is refundable on purchase.
For the producers, they want to strike that balance between discouraging the plebs who think it is a free for all, while still providing enough encouragement for legitimate potential customers. I want to be able to taste their better wines too, and with a production size that is usually much smaller, they are likely to be less open to have those on tasting.
As for pricing, it's a pretty difficult situation for producers... they can't be seen to be undercutting their retail clients. Also certain large clients have often driven pricing down to a level that is unsustainable should the producer sell all their stock at that price level. They are also wanting to make sure that they have enough stock available until just before the next vintage is ready.
Usually I've done my homework and know whether the wines are available in retail land and what price they are, but if the tasting experience is good I don't mind the overpay if it isn't too much

[pokolbinguy]

but if the tasting experience is good I don't mind the overpay if it isn't too much

Is it really an "over pay" if the winery isn't making good margin via the retail / bottle shop stream and have to then pay increased wages and on-costs (e.g wastage etc) and therefore stick to their "RRP" at the Cellar Door?

It is more an "under pay" on the other side. Lower wages, more volume, no tastings etc at the retail shop, so the bottle shop / retailer can "afford" to sell at below RRP, and in turn making the Winery look like they are ripping their direct customers off.

The bigger picture issue here is that us Aussies, in general, normally want to:

- Pay as little as possible
- Be paid as much as possible

This has lead to a huge shift of industries out of Australia because unfortuantley as a cohort we are all as bad as each other whether we want to admit it or not.

The solution is a big and complicated one.

In the mean time if you feel peoples time and expertise (of varied levels) are valuable then a tasting fee should all in all be a normal part of your wine experiences.

For what it is worth I am a Winemaker / GM of an established (30 yo) Hunter Valley wine brand and the introduction of a tasting fee at our Cellar door about 12-18 months ago directly increased our Cellar door sales through (what I feel) bringing a "value" to what we do. Sales increased immediately in addition to the payment of tasting fees.

Cheers, Pok

[Polymer]

Is it really an "over pay" if the winery isn't making good margin via the retail / bottle shop stream and have to then pay increased wages and on-costs (e.g wastage etc) and therefore stick to their "RRP" at the Cellar Door?

Isn't that your own fault though? If you need to increase your wholesale margins then why aren't you? If you feel you have to be sold at Dans, etc it is because either your brand isn't known enough or the wine is the issue. So assuming the wine is there, isn't that a marketing problem? That's effort. This is you or someone else going around and getting your wine tasted...by somms by trade by the public. Have tastings at independent stores that love your wine....bring your wines to the smaller shops. And if you're using Dan's to get your wine out there - basically marketing it, then you're getting value out of that agreement knowing it will be sold under RRP. But you complaining about it is just what you complained about when it comes to other people.

Good wines at fair prices generally get sold in Australia. If you're doing the leg work, it'll happen.

It is more an "under pay" on the other side. Lower wages, more volume, no tastings etc at the retail shop, so the bottle shop / retailer can "afford" to sell at below RRP, and in turn making the Winery look like they are ripping their direct customers off.

Some do tastings...or some work with wineries or shops or shows to do tastings...and if they're selling below what you want them to, stop selling to them. If you have no choice or you want to sell to them, see above.

In the mean time if you feel peoples time and expertise (of varied levels) are valuable then a tasting fee should all in all be a normal part of your wine experiences.

It seems the old world, the old school (in many countries) and the people on here (and other wine geeks) generally disagree. Now if your "tasting experience" is providing value in many ways, that's great. It might be worthwhile if the overall experience is better. Eg. If you're giving people a place to sit, a bit of a snack and a real amount of time then maybe they don't mind a fee. If someone is just pouring the wine with the same old "here is what you should be tasting" then there isn't a whole lot of value there. Or at least none for anyone with a reasonable amount of wine experience. I think most people have the same opinion. I don't mind paying for a tasting if you credit it back upon buying something. That means I tried the wine, I either bought one because I liked it, or I didn't buy anything and can leave not feeling guilty.

For what it is worth I am a Winemaker / GM of an established (30 yo) Hunter Valley wine brand and the introduction of a tasting fee at our Cellar door about 12-18 months ago directly increased our Cellar door sales through (what I feel) bringing a "value" to what we do. Sales increased immediately in addition to the payment of tasting fees.

Cheers, Pok

Did any other variables change? Do you feel you (or you and the people at your winery) are providing more value or more effort because you're charging a tasting fee? Maybe that's a reason why you're actually selling more. Or maybe you're making better wine or giving people a chance to try the whole range or maybe it has been the vintages. Or maybe you've hired better people, more experience, or you're spending more time with your customers because you feel you should now because they're paying. It could just be people value your wine more because you forced them to pay to try it, that's always possible, but have you considered any of the other changes that have, no doubt happened as well in the last 12-18 months?

[pokolbinguy]

Isn't that your own fault though?

Partly yes. Certainly can't attribute all of the blame on the retail market. Heck they get (e.g. the big guys) get away with it because they can

If you feel you have to be sold at Dans,

Thankfully for our brand we do not rely on the wholesale market and as such we do not supply large chains. Mainly local accommodation and restaraunts.

It seems the old world, the old school (in many countries) and the people on here (and other wine geeks) generally disagree.

I would love it if other industries were expected to give away their time and product for free like we do. This would help change this old school thought.

If you're giving people a place to sit, a bit of a snack and a real amount of time then maybe they don't mind a fee.

This is part of the issue. The "don't mind" bit. It assumes something in some form should be free.

If someone is just pouring the wine with the same old "here is what you should be tasting" then there isn't a whole lot of value there. Or at least none for anyone with a reasonable amount of wine experience.

This I agree with. But it does not mean it should be free.

Did any other variables change?

Nothing other than the tasting fee at the immediate start. With COVID rules our Cellar door has changed greatly over the past few months, with that we are seeing fantastic results. But in a nut shell the introduction of a tasting fee very clearly increased sales and I 100% believe this is due to customers believing the products and services we give are valued as we put a price tag on it, even if it is was only $10. Vs "give it away for free and it can't be that great" type of attitude.

Do you feel you (or you and the people at your winery) are providing more value or more effort because you're charging a tasting fee?

Not consciously but what happens sub-consciously could form part of it.

Or maybe you're making better wine or giving people a chance to try the whole range or maybe it has been the vintages.

Wine quality and mix of styles / varieties has been lifting over the past 5+ years which certainly helps that is for sure. Lots of work in the background that has pushed this along.

It could just be people value your wine more because you forced them to pay to try it

We don't hold a gun to their head .... they don't have to pay. But don't expect me to great someone with fan fair if they come in complaining about a tasting fee .

[Dragzworthy]

Is it really an "over pay" if the winery isn't making good margin via the retail / bottle shop stream and have to then pay increased wages and on-costs (e.g wastage etc) and therefore stick to their "RRP" at the Cellar Door?

Isn't that your own fault though? If you need to increase your wholesale margins then why aren't you? If you feel you have to be sold at Dans, etc it is because either your brand isn't known enough or the wine is the issue. So assuming the wine is there, isn't that a marketing problem? That's effort. This is you or someone else going around and getting your wine tasted...by somms by trade by the public. Have tastings at independent stores that love your wine....bring your wines to the smaller shops. And if you're using Dan's to get your wine out there - basically marketing it, then you're getting value out of that agreement knowing it will be sold under RRP. But you complaining about it is just what you complained about when it comes to other people.

Good wines at fair prices generally get sold in Australia. If you're doing the leg work, it'll happen.

It is more an "under pay" on the other side. Lower wages, more volume, no tastings etc at the retail shop, so the bottle shop / retailer can "afford" to sell at below RRP, and in turn making the Winery look like they are ripping their direct customers off.

Some do tastings...or some work with wineries or shops or shows to do tastings...and if they're selling below what you want them to, stop selling to them. If you have no choice or you want to sell to them, see above.

In the mean time if you feel peoples time and expertise (of varied levels) are valuable then a tasting fee should all in all be a normal part of your wine experiences.

It seems the old world, the old school (in many countries) and the people on here (and other wine geeks) generally disagree. Now if your "tasting experience" is providing value in many ways, that's great. It might be worthwhile if the overall experience is better. Eg. If you're giving people a place to sit, a bit of a snack and a real amount of time then maybe they don't mind a fee. If someone is just pouring the wine with the same old "here is what you should be tasting" then there isn't a whole lot of value there. Or at least none for anyone with a reasonable amount of wine experience. I think most people have the same opinion. I don't mind paying for a tasting if you credit it back upon buying something. That means I tried the wine, I either bought one because I liked it, or I didn't buy anything and can leave not feeling guilty.

For what it is worth I am a Winemaker / GM of an established (30 yo) Hunter Valley wine brand and the introduction of a tasting fee at our Cellar door about 12-18 months ago directly increased our Cellar door sales through (what I feel) bringing a "value" to what we do. Sales increased immediately in addition to the payment of tasting fees.

Cheers, Pok

Did any other variables change? Do you feel you (or you and the people at your winery) are providing more value or more effort because you're charging a tasting fee? Maybe that's a reason why you're actually selling more. Or maybe you're making better wine or giving people a chance to try the whole range or maybe it has been the vintages. Or maybe you've hired better people, more experience, or you're spending more time with your customers because you feel you should now because they're paying. It could just be people value your wine more because you forced them to pay to try it, that's always possible, but have you considered any of the other changes that have, no doubt happened as well in the last 12-18 months?

Pork, I'm grateful to get your thoughts as you're on the other side of the fence/bar.

Personally, as stated above, I'd rather there was a tasting fee as I find without it, it's a similar experience to tipping in a New York restaurant...I feel as though I should be paying something and I don't want to feel guilty or leave a bad impression. The tasting fee would be insurance against all this and it's transparent. I never feel entitled to a free drink. When I enter, I'm either paying a fee or buying a bottle....sometimes I'd rather it be the fee given some of the bottles aren't to my liking.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I don't wish to get caught up with some of the issues being discussed here but there are a few things I'd like to say.

First, cellar door sales are usually at retail prices, hence the winery is capturing the wholesale and retail markup. Therefore, strictly from a sales perspective, it ought to be quite profitable.

Second, a winery that is able to sell all its product doesn't need to conduct cellar door tastings, unless tastings are what drive cellar door sales and they sell out. This is the best of all worlds because they're selling out at retail, not wholesale.

Now, with regard to conducting tastings, leaving aside the horrors surrounding bus tours (personally I prefer to visit wineries that have a sign outside saying no bus tours), there are two reasons to have tastings: marketing and sales. Sales are the profitable side, marketing is the "free" side. Sales, obviously, makes money. The purpose of marketing is to introduce the wine in order to spur sales in retail stores when the taster is back home. I would imagine that discounts, promotions, in-store tastings, and advertising would be more expensive than simply providing samples at cellar door.

Lets look at the sales side. People often visit a number of wineries when in a region and it isn't possible to ferry around all that wine let alone risk heat damage. I'm sure people will remind me that one can have their wines delivered. Fair point, but let me remind eveyone that it is just as easy to order the wines online when back home. More important for me, and for anyone who has a budget or wants to control the amount of wine they want to buy, is the flexibility to taste through the wines in the region and decide at leisure which ones they want to buy and where, at cellar door, back home at a local retailer, or online direct from the winery. In my drive-around a long time ago I did all three: bought at cellar door if I thought it mightn't be available back in Sydney, at retailers in Sydney, and I made a couple of phone orders from the winery.

Cheers .............................. Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

I would love it if other industries were expected to give away their time and product for free like we do. This would help change this old school thought.

But they do. You surely can't think this is exclusive to wine. Food is a big one. You've never got free samples of anything? You see it with things like makeup, lotion, etc. You see it for drinks. I've seen free coke giveways when there is a new flavor. Flavored water, ice cream, beer, etc, etc. It is marketing. They do it because they believe when people try their product they will want to buy it.

You have a marketing budget right? Marketing = cost of tastings, ads, travel to show wines, etc, etc. I'm assuming marketing is included in your costs to determine what your cost basis for a wine is right? As well as overhead, labor, etc, etc....

If someone is just pouring the wine with the same old "here is what you should be tasting" then there isn't a whole lot of value there. Or at least none for anyone with a reasonable amount of wine experience.

This I agree with. But it does not mean it should be free.

Tastings are mutually beneficial. They're marketing. Do I get to charge you if I disliked your wine and you wasted my time? Are you paying my mileage and petrol costs to drive out to your winery?
Let me ask you this, if you had a chance to show your wines to 100 people who are your target market and likely wine buyers. Would you jump at the opportunity to show them your wine knowing your great product is likely to produce some long term customers? Or would you rather just wait for them to, by chance, try your product at some point? Would you rather they try a product you've got to try before they tasted, a product you can talk to while they're tasting, a product they can learn more about while tasting...or just a random uncontrolled environment? Which one is likely to produce a long term customer?

Nothing other than the tasting fee at the immediate start. With COVID rules our Cellar door has changed greatly over the past few months, with that we are seeing fantastic results. But in a nut shell the introduction of a tasting fee very clearly increased sales and I 100% believe this is due to customers believing the products and services we give are valued as we put a price tag on it, even if it is was only $10. Vs "give it away for free and it can't be that great" type of attitude.

Could be...or could be you chased away all the people that weren't going to buy anyways and the overall experience is less crowded and that has had a positive impact such as more time per likely buyer, more attention, quicker service. But you also get that if you credit back the tasting fee...not only that but people are more likely to buy at least one bottle and that gives your wine a chance to make another impression.
Now, if there are just more people who are coming in, I doubt a tasting fee has attracted more total people. In all likelihood your wine has just been better and is attracting more visitors.

We don't hold a gun to their head .... they don't have to pay. But don't expect me to great someone with fan fair if they come in complaining about a tasting fee .

Well what I mean is, some people might view your wines as more valuable because they have to pay to try them...same reason the exact same product is suddenly viewed as better simply because they're charging more...

[A_Steady]

I would love it if other industries were expected to give away their time and product for free like we do. This would help change this old school thought.

But they do. You surely can't think this is exclusive to wine. Food is a big one. You've never got free samples of anything? You see it with things like makeup, lotion, etc. You see it for drinks. I've seen free coke giveways when there is a new flavor. Flavored water, ice cream, beer, etc, etc. It is marketing. They do it because they believe when people try their product they will want to buy it.

In my area (Tas) numerous Cheeserys, chocolatiers, delicatessens all provide samples, and most of the gin, whiskey, cider producers do also. The places selling cherries or honey let you try the different varieties first

Lots of businesses with unique products do this.

[Matt@5453]

I was at Paulett's CD in Polish Hill having lunch yesterday, this is a quick snap of their tasting offering for $25, you can pick any 5 wines from their list of available wines (they have an decent list to select from). Price is redeemable (not sure on what you need to spend to get it redeemed). This is more than a tasting in my mind, its entertainment.

All tastings are sit down (due to COVID), the staff were busy attending to all the tables, seemed like a very good experience to me, I politely asked a number of people what they thought - they were loving it.

tasting.jpg

p.s. the new 2020 Polish Hill Riesling looks amazing