Bordeaux En Primeur 2019

[sjw_11]

With the offers rolling in I thought I would start a thread on this years release which seems likely to be interesting for a bunch of reasons (less reviews, no one actually visited the region in person only by zoom, prices variable but clearly well down on last year)...

Plus, seriously, on the topic of critic scores, why does anyone even bother quoting James Suckling's scores? I haven't seen him give any wine less than 94-95 points even where every other critic is lower. It is a complete joke.

[sjw_11]

So who is planning on buying?

[mychurch]

That Australian dollar is on its way up, so maybe it will end up more affordable than normal.

I really miss European supermarkets as there you could find good quality BDX for under $30 - Aldi and Lidl even less. Aldi have good qpr stuff here, but the really interesting wines don’t seem to make it over.

I bought Pontet Canet last year and this year the price is 30% less. Not bad. But that is still well over $200 a bottle. This might be a bit like 08 again - quality and a price decrease - but the prices of the names people want won’t fall that far. Shame.

I use the Farr Vintners site to get the best summary if price and review. There En Primuer pages will be up soon.

[sjw_11]

I probably should have grabbed the Pontet Canet but by the time I thought of it both BBR and the French people I buy from had sold out their allocations. Can't be bothered to hunt around.

Did just grab a 6x of the Pagodes de Cos to kick things off, I really buy to drink not to invest at all so a good 2nd label from a decent year at a competitive price pretty much ticks the box. GBP186 (I think it is fine to say since Gavin doesn't sell en primeur I believe).

[Gavin Trott]

I probably should have grabbed the Pontet Canet but by the time I thought of it both BBR and the French people I buy from had sold out their allocations. Can't be bothered to hunt around.

Did just grab a 6x of the Pagodes de Cos to kick things off, I really buy to drink not to invest at all so a good 2nd label from a decent year at a competitive price pretty much ticks the box. GBP186 (I think it is fine to say since Gavin doesn't sell en primeur I believe).

All good, post away, I never do en primeur ... bit risky

[Dragzworthy]

Birth year for the second son. I had gone pretty hard in 2015 for the first one so only seems fair to do the same this time around. From what I read it seems like a better right bank vintage so will focus on St Emillion and Pomerol.

[felixp21]

A fool and his money......


there are absolutely zero reasons to purchase 2019 Bordeaux EP.
Firstly,and most importantly, there is no guarantee you will ever see the wine you paid for. Seriously.
Secondly, Bordeaux EP has not been of any discount to the bottled release since 2005. Seriously. Incredibly, you can still buy 2010 Bordeaux for 10% above the EP prices, so net zero cost NPV. (i'm excluding FG's and right bank FG's in this)
Thirdly, more than ever, wine critics have a seriously vested interest in making EP work.... it is their job, their income. So, do NOT trust ANY "scores" you may read.... the more moral critics are staying well away from these "isolated" tastings.
Fourthly, do not believe ANYTHING the Bordelaise (or the French in general) are telling you about any region in 2019... like most countries, the French economy has gone totally down the shitter and they will do anything to make some money and stimulate it.
Fifthly, do NOT support the Bordelaise out of pity, they have happily screwed you for the past 25 years and now cry poor and plead for a helping hand in their "time of need"

I love my Bordeaux, but only a total fool would go anywhere near EP in this day and age.
Hand over your cash for a box of wine, and not for some promise. It's the post-Covid World we live in.

[phillisc]

Gee whiz, I thought my views at times are controversial, but need not worry after that post...and I have had 2 G&Ts and a bottle of 2010 Wynns Black Label (which was lovely by the way and thanks for asking)

Cheers
Craig

[mychurch]

Fekix is wrong. I bought Lafite and Latour 08 as well as some Pomerol. Regret not buying more. Anyone who did so is sitting on large profits. Not sure about subsequent vintages, but i know my Carmes Haut Brions cannot he bought for what I paid for them.

The 2 other reasons to buy En Primeur are rarity and bottle size. As Liv-Ex point out, the price of Last years Lafleur has doubled, and if you want wines like that - high quality, small production, then En Primeur is one of the few times you can buy them for a reasonable price. Unfortunately a lot of owners are parcelling wines and limiting access, but if you want certain wines, then it pays to get in early. Where I do agree with Felix though is with the larger production left bank wines - can’t see any reason to buy a Cos, Montrose, Pichon or something like that En Primeur - volumes are high and prices are fairer for older vintages.

If you want halves, or large format, then it’s much easier now than later.

[felixp21]

wow, isn't it cool when someone doesn't read your post and then calls you wrong.
I said excluding FG'a and right bank FG's and then you mention Lafite and Latour

PS, good luck selling them at "large" profits anyway, the international Fine Wine market has shat itself too.

My most important point was, however, that there is a serious risk you will never actually see the wine. Frydenberg might call us in a recession, that might very well become a depression in the next quarter. You honestly think wine merchants are 100% safe from all this? Well, the so-called experts certainly don't!!! Possession is 9/10's of the law, and if Rick's Wine Merchants or some such retailer goes broke, trust me, you and your EP $$ are very much at the bottom of the list.

[Polymer]

I think if you're in Australia, EP might still offer enough of a discount to take the risk.

In most countries where wine prices are more competitive, that's generally not the case. You might save a little bit of money but you take on a lot more risk..it just isn't worth doing. I don't think the last EP to be worth it internationally was 05 though, 09 had a lot of wines (since people mentioned Pontet Canet that was one in particular) where they were significantly higher on release. That wine was roughly 100 USD EP.. 10 was less worth it...I'm not sure there have been any EPs since then that have been worth it at all with a few exceptions of the very difficult wines to get (which in Bordeaux is maybe 3 or 4 wines total?)

I think also people need to consider back vintages more than EP...better value where their cost basis is far lower. Will be drinking better sooner and lower risk.

I do think I need to take my own advice and buy more back vintage Bordeaux as well...simply because they're pretty decent value and great wines. But for some reason there just doesn't seem to be that rush to get them. There is so much of it out there, you don't feel pressure to buy it when you see it...and that is something people should consider when buying Bordeaux and EP in particular. The time of getting a good deal at EP is long long long gone, there is too much supply, not enough demand.

[Hacker]

One thing I find interesting is the large difference between our pricing and that of the USA. I know why etc. but it is still a grand canyon of difference. On Wineberserkers the people are saying 2019 Pontet Canet is costing them EP $79, whereas here the cheapest I have seen is $199. We just have to suck it up I suppose. BTW I am not in the market for any.

[brodie]

One thing I find interesting is the large difference between our pricing and that of the USA. I know why etc. but it is still a grand canyon of difference. On Wineberserkers the people are saying 2019 Pontet Canet is costing them EP $79, whereas here the cheapest I have seen is $199. We just have to suck it up I suppose. BTW I am not in the market for any.

NZ quote for 2019 is NZ$130 which is is about US$83, so no big difference on this side of the pond. Last EP campaign for me was 2099 so not a buyer.

[Dragzworthy]

Maybe I am a fool indeed but I'm happy running the counterparty risk on my en Primeur. I'm foolish to buy 2019 as I could get mature 2010 cheaper...but I actually want the 2019 vintage as birth year sentiment purchase. Anyway, this fool is sticking with his en Primeur. Maybe it ends up being a bad investment but I'm comfortable with that.

[mychurch]

I think who you buy from is the most important aspect of En Primeur. Must be 15 years ago now that I bought from 1855.com. Luckily I only bought minor white Bordeaux from them and I managed to get all my wines, but I know a lot of people lost a lot of money.

If you are buying to drink then you could do worse that buying from one of the large English merchants. You can store them there for years and have them shipped over when ready to drink. I have read a few comments on the board from people who have accounts there and it seems to be a smart solution. Delivery would be $20 or so, but you could wait until the exchange rates are in favour, You have to take a chance on tax changes, but life is not without risk.

Its worth noting that at the start of the 2008 financial crash I made a mental note to buy some of the classic Bdx wines as the prices were going to fall. 86 and 82 Mouton was about 6K a case in the Uk then ( from memory - it may have been less) and I was going to buy 1 of each when the price fell. It never happened though as the price went up rather than down. Same happened with a lot of fancy wines. Just because things are bad now, it does not mean that prices will fall.

[Ian S]

So who is planning on buying?

I've never indulged in Bdx en-primeur and on the whole prices of classed growth wines went beyond what I'm prepared to pay a good few years ago.

My purchases have been intermittent, with more dabbling in the auction market a decade or so ago, but now mostly settled on keeping a few bottles of Pomerol in (for the brains of the operation), plus the odd bottle or two here and there when either we discover something interesting at a good price, or occasional billy bargain prices as they arise.

We did pick up some bottles on a short holiday in France a couple of years ago, not too far from Calais. As well as some excellent supermarket selections (notably a good leclerc), the excellent Halles de Quercamps has become a forum favourite for the Wine pages crowd. Entry via a small / modest grocery shop, leads into a large wine shop covering a vast range across the French regions. Very helpful staff as well.

[Ian S]

Maybe I am a fool indeed but I'm happy running the counterparty risk on my en Primeur. I'm foolish to buy 2019 as I could get mature 2010 cheaper...but I actually want the 2019 vintage as birth year sentiment purchase. Anyway, this fool is sticking with his en Primeur. Maybe it ends up being a bad investment but I'm comfortable with that.

Go for it. Buy to drink and for future celebrations and hope that the price doesn't escalate, resulting in you feeling pressured to sell rather than drink

[Dragzworthy]

Maybe I am a fool indeed but I'm happy running the counterparty risk on my en Primeur. I'm foolish to buy 2019 as I could get mature 2010 cheaper...but I actually want the 2019 vintage as birth year sentiment purchase. Anyway, this fool is sticking with his en Primeur. Maybe it ends up being a bad investment but I'm comfortable with that.

Go for it. Buy to drink and for future celebrations and hope that the price doesn't escalate, resulting in you feeling pressured to sell rather than drink

Thanks Ian, precisely what I'm expecting and hoping.

[sjw_11]

Interesting thoughts all around...

I have to say from my perspective, I only plan to buy probably two to three things in a modest price range (lets say 150-250 quid per 6). I don't expect to make money although I would hope to get at least as good a deal as on the secondary market when the wines are released.

I buy from BBR. They have survived through any number of wars, pandemics and recessions going back before the Napoleonic war, so I can only hope the counterparty risk is low. They also seamlessly accept delivery in due course and start storing the wine in bond for me, which makes my life easy. Basically I don't want to "forget" to cellar some BDX while I live in Europe and the en primeur time is an easy point to remember to do that.

I do think this years offer may have a few bargains in it, as the BDX wine makers as much as everyone else has to sweeten the deal to make sure they get some cash flow.

[asajoseph]

I think who you buy from is the most important aspect of En Primeur. Must be 15 years ago now that I bought from 1855.com. Luckily I only bought minor white Bordeaux from them and I managed to get all my wines, but I know a lot of people lost a lot of money.

If you are buying to drink then you could do worse that buying from one of the large English merchants. You can store them there for years and have them shipped over when ready to drink. I have read a few comments on the board from people who have accounts there and it seems to be a smart solution. Delivery would be $20 or so, but you could wait until the exchange rates are in favour, You have to take a chance on tax changes, but life is not without risk.

Its worth noting that at the start of the 2008 financial crash I made a mental note to buy some of the classic Bdx wines as the prices were going to fall. 86 and 82 Mouton was about 6K a case in the Uk then ( from memory - it may have been less) and I was going to buy 1 of each when the price fell. It never happened though as the price went up rather than down. Same happened with a lot of fancy wines. Just because things are bad now, it does not mean that prices will fall.

Just to note, you need to ship in volume from the UK to Australia to make it economical. Delivery would be a LOT more than $20 (was that a typo maybe?) - and you would also be responsible for WET & GST on top. Berry Bros, for example, quote around GBP 236 (approx $450) to air freight 12 bottles to Aus, and that's before WET & GST

There are cheaper air freight options, but you're still looking north of $300/case to get your wine here that way. Sea freight much cheaper, but then you need volume.

If you're not confident in your merchant, don't buy En Primeur in Australia. There is more than enough physical Bordeaux floating around on the secondary market.

[GraemeG]

So, around $40 a bottle to airfreight from Europe, and if they're assessed at worth $100 a bottle* that's another ~$320 in WET: no doubt GST would be assessed on the freight as well as the WET, so that's $75 of GST on top. So, $70/bottle add-on to land it locally.

*and how's it valued? Local retail price? What kind of Bdx sells here for $100/btl that's worth paying another $70 each to land here? I can't see how the economics work out buying EP overseas with the idea of physically bringing wine to Oz.

[asajoseph]

The other advantage you have here is that you can buy EP buy the bottle, or part case if you want.

That option doesn't exist in the UK - you're buying in lots of 6/12.

[Sigmamupi]

So, around $40 a bottle to airfreight from Europe, and if they're assessed at worth $100 a bottle* that's another ~$320 in WET: no doubt GST would be assessed on the freight as well as the WET, so that's $75 of GST on top. So, $70/bottle add-on to land it locally.

*and how's it valued? Local retail price? What kind of Bdx sells here for $100/btl that's worth paying another $70 each to land here? I can't see how the economics work out buying EP overseas with the idea of physically bringing wine to Oz.

*On the invoice value of the in-bond price from the European merchant plus freight and insurance.

And I think 5% customs duty still applies to French wines, so you have customs duty, WET and GST compounding on the purchase price.

Absolutely correct - it doesn't work.

[mychurch]

Just to note, you need to ship in volume from the UK to Australia to make it economical. Delivery would be a LOT more than $20 (was that a typo maybe?) - and you would also be responsible for WET & GST on top. Berry Bros, for example, quote around GBP 236 (approx $450) to air freight 12 bottles to Aus, and that's before WET & GST

It costs me 145 Euro to get a case sent over from France, which is $20 a bottle.

That is of course airmail in a cardboard box that with a polystyrene case packed inside. I imagine BBR are sending the full wooden case, which would make quite a difference to the weight and you would need special packing. I also forgot that transport from the UK is generally very high (execpt maybe to Singapore and Hong Kong)- I remember that it would cost more than twice as much to have 2 cases delivered to Holland as it would to send from a Dutch merchant to the UK.

I know its only grape juice, but todays Mouton offer seems to be a reasonable price. Cheaper than any available vintage and from a good vintage. Ok, its double 2008 and 4 times 2004, but we all know what Mary Hopkin would sing.

[mychurch]

So, around $40 a bottle to airfreight from Europe, and if they're assessed at worth $100 a bottle* that's another ~$320 in WET: no doubt GST would be assessed on the freight as well as the WET, so that's $75 of GST on top. So, $70/bottle add-on to land it locally.

*and how's it valued? Local retail price? What kind of Bdx sells here for $100/btl that's worth paying another $70 each to land here? I can't see how the economics work out buying EP overseas with the idea of physically bringing wine to Oz.

Last year Carmes was 815 a case in the UK. Imagine there wont be a change this year as they are trying to push up the price - last year it was 20% price increase and 20% volume decrease.

That would be $1500 a case. En Primeur Price at Prince is $3100 a case, so there is $1600 wiggle room. Imagine thats enough to cover the costs. There may of course be better people to buy from En Primeur, but its just an indication.

I personally would not recommend it - I'd rather pay a bit more for a trusted local merchant than seeking out the best bargain, but if I was buying now in the hope of selling on later, then it may be worth it.

[asajoseph]

Just to note, you need to ship in volume from the UK to Australia to make it economical. Delivery would be a LOT more than $20 (was that a typo maybe?) - and you would also be responsible for WET & GST on top. Berry Bros, for example, quote around GBP 236 (approx $450) to air freight 12 bottles to Aus, and that's before WET & GST

It costs me 145 Euro to get a case sent over from France, which is $20 a bottle

At those prices, I'm assuming you're not declaring what you're shipping!

That is of course airmail in a cardboard box that with a polystyrene case packed inside. I imagine BBR are sending the full wooden case, which would make quite a difference to the weight and you would need special packing. I also forgot that transport from the UK is generally very high (execpt maybe to Singapore and Hong Kong)-

Shockingly, no. Berry's don't send the wooden boxes along with their wine - the cost for them (they claim) comes from unpacking & repacking the wine, not shipping it as it sits in their warehouse. They are definitely at the top of the market, mind - but that's not surprising for them!

For what it's worth, I'm still planning to bring my UK cellar over to Aus, but it's large enough to just about make the shipping cost effective. Based on the last quote I have (a few years old), you can do sea freight for 10+ cases (120 bottles) for about GBP85/case, falling to GBP70 for 25+ cases and then scaling down to 44GBP if you can do upward of 200 cases (oh to have a cellar that large...)

[asajoseph]

To use a current example, just picking a couple of different offers out of the air.

Palmer was offered around GBP1,000/6 in the UK, and around $3,000 case in Aus.

At a rate of 1.8, and an air freight price of 180GBP (what I was quoted a few years ago, much cheaper than BBR), it'll still cost you a shade under $3,250 to land that same case in Aus yourself.

[felixp21]

Maybe I am a fool indeed but I'm happy running the counterparty risk on my en Primeur. I'm foolish to buy 2019 as I could get mature 2010 cheaper...but I actually want the 2019 vintage as birth year sentiment purchase. Anyway, this fool is sticking with his en Primeur. Maybe it ends up being a bad investment but I'm comfortable with that.

indeed, this would be the only reason to buy 2019 EP, if it represented some special year. Otherwise, you might find your EP purchases as worthless as my Hong Kong Airlines tickets for this September hahaha

Since my post, I am thoroughly amused to see Lisa Parrot-Brown and the rag that RPJ used to own "co-incidentally" publishing articles on various Bordeaux Chateaux and then, low and behold, the next day that Chateau just happens to release their EP pricing
As I said, it seems to me the reputable scribes are staying well away at this stage, and I wouldn't be believing anything you hear about this vintage for quite a while yet.

[felixp21]

To use a current example, just picking a couple of different offers out of the air.

Palmer was offered around GBP1,000/6 in the UK, and around $3,000 case in Aus.

At a rate of 1.8, and an air freight price of 180GBP (what I was quoted a few years ago, much cheaper than BBR), it'll still cost you a shade under $3,250 to land that same case in Aus yourself.

$500 a bottle for Palmer is a decent price in terms of what it costs ex-cellar. (not a decent price in terms of what you can get it for in older vintages)
The UK consumer needs to pay VAT and duty on top of that, so they aren't getting any bargain compared to the Aus purchaser. They will end up paying about the equivalent of $400 to drink it.

[Dragzworthy]

Maybe I am a fool indeed but I'm happy running the counterparty risk on my en Primeur. I'm foolish to buy 2019 as I could get mature 2010 cheaper...but I actually want the 2019 vintage as birth year sentiment purchase. Anyway, this fool is sticking with his en Primeur. Maybe it ends up being a bad investment but I'm comfortable with that.

indeed, this would be the only reason to buy 2019 EP, if it represented some special year. Otherwise, you might find your EP purchases as worthless as my Hong Kong Airlines tickets for this September hahaha

Since my post, I am thoroughly amused to see Lisa Parrot-Brown and the rag that RPJ used to own "co-incidentally" publishing articles on various Bordeaux Chateaux and then, low and behold, the next day that Chateau just happens to release their EP pricing
As I said, it seems to me the reputable scribes are staying well away at this stage, and I wouldn't be believing anything you hear about this vintage for quite a while yet.

The first born was 2015 and I bought a lot...it would be unfair not to buy for the second born.

Yes some of the reviews are concerning and the timing between release of review and wine perhaps a tad uncanny. I'm just buying what I've liked historically but skewing towards right bank as I understand conditions being more merlot favourable.