Penfolds' new Champagnes make a sparkling debut

[phillisc]

May I ask what does any of this have to do wine...yes vale Hawkey and yes there is an election tomorrow...but let's keep politics out of it.
Cheers
Craig

[JamieBahrain]

China is a Great White Hope for Australia and comes with the most complex issues of our time as our number one trading partner. I don't mind those conversations and a probable scenarios in our relationship includes embargoes on our wine. China will always be topical here on auswine from a wine sense - perhaps drifting occasionally to politics but soon drifting back to regular topics such as fakes and a bizarre, difficult to understand wine market.

[Mahmoud Ali]

yes, much "mine is bigger than yours" chatter between China and the US at the moment.
couldn't imagine in a million years it would come to an armed conflict, the Chinese are too smart for that. No point the Chinese bombing a country they already !5% own :)
and the problem for the US is half their mega-companies are now based in China.

There has always been a catastrophic war when a new Superpower emerges, The Thucydides Trap, but I'd be very confident that common sense and the information super-highway will prevent that happening again. Even the CIA now acknowledges the China economy is number one, so the latest trade spat is the simply the last hurrah of a US-dominated globe. It's going to be an extremely interesting next decade!!!!!

The US doesn't have any mega companies based in China..they have cheap manufacturing via partners...

China wouldn't bomb the US because they can't...
The trade spat has nothing to do with the US trying to stay #1...it has to do with one ways dealings with China...Not to mention they were trying to be the unethical rats they are when it comes to business...(not that I consider the US to be that much better). I'm sure China views it as this is the case...but the reality is, China gets to where they are because of unethical business practices, stealing secrets, breaking sanctions, etc...That's the norm. The Chinese mentality is not that they're doing anything wrong but you're stupid for having let them get away with it.

But the fact is, the Chinese can't create...they can copy...Maybe BC they were able to create..but right now they steal/copy... and before you think they're innovating in technology because of the applications and wechat and other types of things...No..they copied that..the difference is the use of data and the adoption rate which allows some of these things to exist in China (whereas regulations and other things make some things difficult in other countries). The technology and basis for all their "innovation" is a copy of someone elses..whether they adapted something else someone else created or flat out stole it...They don't create...they copy...

The Chinese wouldn't bomb the US because they don't usually bomb others, however the same can't be said about the United States.

When calling the Chinese "rats", wouldn't it be more accurate to say yellow rats?

As for the "the Chinese can't create ... they can copy", the very same used to be said about the Japanese.

Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

When calling the Chinese "rats", wouldn't it be more accurate to say yellow rats?

What an awful and odd thing to say.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Jamie, I was being sarcastic. Perhaps I misread the post but, just to confirm, who do you think the poster meant when he said "unethical rats", the Amercans or the Chinese?

[Polymer]

We should get back to the wine...

[JamieBahrain]

Jamie, I was being sarcastic. Perhaps I misread the post but, just to confirm, who do you think the poster meant when he said "unethical rats", the Amercans or the Chinese?

I'll make one final post here and be done with it.

I think he was right in a number of areas of the discussion though making the common and widely unchangeable wrong of referring to the mainland totalitarian regime as "Chinese". Creates ethnicity issues, ignores the mass diaspora and wider Chinese communities, ignores a violent civil war and sends a shiver as my first impression is racism ( though not ).

Many Chinese would feel comfortable labelling the mainland regime as rats. Many local Hong Kong Chinese friends disparagingly call mainlanders locusts. Mainland Chinese friends can be just as brutal- one young colleague the other day told me Hong Kong peoples' brains are as small as their apartments.

So I always ask people to please refer specifically to mainlanders instead of Chinese to avoid the misconception of racism and the plague facing the Western world where required conversations are shut down by the PC brigade by labelling folks racist when they are not- which was the real objection I had with your yellow rat comments.

The Chinese ( ooops mainland ) government plays these games too- becoming far more sinister and effective.

[JamieBahrain]

Back to the Penfolds champagne.

What will they pay import tax on? Could they declare a low landed value and minimise WET? Than price it to compete with the French premiums at massive profit?

Declaring a landed value of $20 you pay WET on the $20. GST is on the $250. That's about a smart $50 avoidance of tax that Dom Perignon would pay?

[felixp21]

yes, much "mine is bigger than yours" chatter between China and the US at the moment.
couldn't imagine in a million years it would come to an armed conflict, the Chinese are too smart for that. No point the Chinese bombing a country they already !5% own
and the problem for the US is half their mega-companies are now based in China.

There has always been a catastrophic war when a new Superpower emerges, The Thucydides Trap, but I'd be very confident that common sense and the information super-highway will prevent that happening again. Even the CIA now acknowledges the China economy is number one, so the latest trade spat is the simply the last hurrah of a US-dominated globe. It's going to be an extremely interesting next decade!!!!!

The US doesn't have any mega companies based in China..they have cheap manufacturing via partners...

China wouldn't bomb the US because they can't...
The trade spat has nothing to do with the US trying to stay #1...it has to do with one ways dealings with China...Not to mention they were trying to be the unethical rats they are when it comes to business...(not that I consider the US to be that much better). I'm sure China views it as this is the case...but the reality is, China gets to where they are because of unethical business practices, stealing secrets, breaking sanctions, etc...That's the norm. The Chinese mentality is not that they're doing anything wrong but you're stupid for having let them get away with it.

But the fact is, the Chinese can't create...they can copy...Maybe BC they were able to create..but right now they steal/copy... and before you think they're innovating in technology because of the applications and wechat and other types of things...No..they copied that..the difference is the use of data and the adoption rate which allows some of these things to exist in China (whereas regulations and other things make some things difficult in other countries). The technology and basis for all their "innovation" is a copy of someone elses..whether they adapted something else someone else created or flat out stole it...They don't create...they copy...

Maybe I am wrong, but for some reason I used to consider the contributors on this Board to be well educated and reasonably intelligent. Well, I can strike one contributor from that list, no doubt about that.
Mind boggling.

[Dragzworthy]

yes, much "mine is bigger than yours" chatter between China and the US at the moment.
couldn't imagine in a million years it would come to an armed conflict, the Chinese are too smart for that. No point the Chinese bombing a country they already !5% own
and the problem for the US is half their mega-companies are now based in China.

There has always been a catastrophic war when a new Superpower emerges, The Thucydides Trap, but I'd be very confident that common sense and the information super-highway will prevent that happening again. Even the CIA now acknowledges the China economy is number one, so the latest trade spat is the simply the last hurrah of a US-dominated globe. It's going to be an extremely interesting next decade!!!!!

The US doesn't have any mega companies based in China..they have cheap manufacturing via partners...

China wouldn't bomb the US because they can't...
The trade spat has nothing to do with the US trying to stay #1...it has to do with one ways dealings with China...Not to mention they were trying to be the unethical rats they are when it comes to business...(not that I consider the US to be that much better). I'm sure China views it as this is the case...but the reality is, China gets to where they are because of unethical business practices, stealing secrets, breaking sanctions, etc...That's the norm. The Chinese mentality is not that they're doing anything wrong but you're stupid for having let them get away with it.

But the fact is, the Chinese can't create...they can copy...Maybe BC they were able to create..but right now they steal/copy... and before you think they're innovating in technology because of the applications and wechat and other types of things...No..they copied that..the difference is the use of data and the adoption rate which allows some of these things to exist in China (whereas regulations and other things make some things difficult in other countries). The technology and basis for all their "innovation" is a copy of someone elses..whether they adapted something else someone else created or flat out stole it...They don't create...they copy...

Maybe I am wrong, but for some reason I used to consider the contributors on this Board to be well educated and reasonably intelligent. Well, I can strike one contributor from that list, no doubt about that.
Mind boggling.

Agree..not sure where to begin on the dissection of that drivel. Best not even start.

[Polymer]

Ok...Not just wine.
First off...Felix and his incorrect facts..its like dealing with Trump. thank god for google. Making up facts used to work a long time ago..doesn't any longer.

And if any of you think my information on how Chinese do business is incorrect..please tell me how. I've lived there..more than half my close friends are Chinese..I've done business there...I know things have evolved but I doubt a nice full red envelope has stopped being part of how to get things done.

Lets break down all I've said...Unethical business practices. We know this is true. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong...We can point to quite a number of things.

Breaking sanctions - This appears to be true and we know this wouldn't be the first time or the last.

Stealing secrets - We know this has been done already. Corporate espionage, spying, hacking..that's all happened. Not claiming they're exclusive here but China loves to copy because they lack the skill to create.

The Chinese mentality about not thinking they're doing anything wrong...That's been told to me by different Chinese and if you look at how they do business, how they approach intellectual property, yes this is exactly true.

So where am I wrong? Dissect please...because apparently all I've said is "drivel"...LOL.

Actually..let me take back some of what I said...they do create...In trying to find a way to cheat the system, they create..Eg. They created ways to get you a lot of fake likes on your instagram, etc....

And Jaime is right..I'm referring to mainland Chinese....and of course it is just a blanket statement...obviously doesn't apply to every mainlander..but it is accurate as a whole...

[phillisc]

Again...what does any of this have to do with wine??!!

Cheers Craig

[JamieBahrain]

Craig

Our wine industry's engagement with China is a significant topic of the auswine forum. Deeper digressions perhaps not?

China is our biggest wine export market when including HKG & Macau ( I should add Taiwan too hehehee ). Big and small producers have been burnt by horrific business practices from intellectual property, counterfeiting or just plain dishonesty. I'll add to this too, significant political interference on a scale never witnessed before.

How is this relevant to auswine punters? Geez I think it covers everything? Proliferation of super premium labels, the Penfolds story, foreign control of our vineyards, domestic pricing - the list endless! It's just a topic as poorly understood as the rise of China itself.

Stephen Henschke is touring "secondary" Chinese cities at the moment promoting his brand with others. Totally avoiding Beijing/Shanghai where you could buy HofG on the Bund for the last 20 years at least! I hope he goes well as despite Mt Ed being $225 AUD a bottle now, a premium market of unlimited size will continue to present the red wine boom in the Eden / Barossa . And what's bad about this? They were pulling vines not that long ago and now we have rural Australians doing quiet nicely up their in the Barossa / Eden.

It's a double edged sword though with political interference. And Australians are best served to have these conversations as the rise of China is gruff. Buying cheap lines like China doesn't bomb people is just ignorant of geo-political challenges emerging. Perhaps this is the topical diversion worth avoiding but let's avoid black and white debate.

The enthusiasm of young mainlanders in my sphere with the Australian experience including wine is infectious. I give away Aussie wine from my cellar on occasion and its s joy to see folks from such a different culture embracing my country. So its just as important too to disassociate high end politics from everyday mainland people- and perhaps again to differentiate from their uber wealthy to their middle class whose spirit of adventure and exploration of food and wine is something many here can relate to.

[felixp21]

Ok...Not just wine.
First off...Felix and his incorrect facts..its like dealing with Trump. thank god for google. Making up facts used to work a long time ago..doesn't any longer.

And if any of you think my information on how Chinese do business is incorrect..please tell me how. I've lived there..more than half my close friends are Chinese..I've done business there...I know things have evolved but I doubt a nice full red envelope has stopped being part of how to get things done.

Lets break down all I've said...Unethical business practices. We know this is true. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong...We can point to quite a number of things.

Breaking sanctions - This appears to be true and we know this wouldn't be the first time or the last.

Stealing secrets - We know this has been done already. Corporate espionage, spying, hacking..that's all happened. Not claiming they're exclusive here but China loves to copy because they lack the skill to create.

The Chinese mentality about not thinking they're doing anything wrong...That's been told to me by different Chinese and if you look at how they do business, how they approach intellectual property, yes this is exactly true.

So where am I wrong? Dissect please...because apparently all I've said is "drivel"...LOL.

Actually..let me take back some of what I said...they do create...In trying to find a way to cheat the system, they create..Eg. They created ways to get you a lot of fake likes on your instagram, etc....

And Jaime is right..I'm referring to mainland Chinese....and of course it is just a blanket statement...obviously doesn't apply to every mainlander..but it is accurate as a whole...

.... as my mother used to tell me, never bother trying to argue with an idiot. A racist idiot at that!!!
Enough said. Case closed.

[Dragzworthy]

Shall we open a bottle of Penfolds Champagne?

[Hunter]

It's probly good !

[Polymer]

.... as my mother used to tell me, never bother trying to argue with an idiot. A racist idiot at that!!!
Enough said. Case closed.

It would be really difficult for me to be racist towards any Asians...and my Chinese friends would beg to differ.
Not to mention none of this is racist...the Chinese are shrewd businessmen and smart, as you've said. They also think nothing of what we'd consider unethical behavior when it comes to business. This doesn't mean they don't think stealing money is wrong..they of course do...but when it comes to stealing ideas, intellectual property, etc..no because that's not a hard item.

I can give you some practical government corruption with businesses and how they keep other companies out...

You live there..but either you're completely blinded, ignorant or just refuse to make an honest assessment of how things are run there. Or maybe you're just lucky and no one around you does any of this..but given you seem to have been surrounded by people with money, it is pretty much a guarantee that at least one of them has...

My mainland Chinese friends that are still very much tied to China...They're very honest people...but you can also see the differences in what they think is ok and what is not ok.

But maybe I should've listened to your mother..

[Ian S]

Again...what does any of this have to do with wine??!!

Cheers Craig

Fully agreed. I hope the others stop this unpleasant exchange about China (or take it up via PM with each other)

[JamieBahrain]

For different reasons, China is the biggest issue on Aussie wine since Robert Parker.

It will come up again and again in the future .

Best we learn to have the conversations without offending each other .